Very Rare Res and Def sets

[Webmaxx3]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

For most considerations, PVP sets are essentially the same as Purple sets, at least as far as:

• What the values of the attribute bonuses are, per piece, for level 50 through 50+5
• Don't lose set bonuses when playing content below level 50

The biggest differences are (IMO):

• Characters must be at least level 50 to slot Purple enhancements, whereas PVP sets act as any other level 10-50 enhancement.
• Purple sets heavily favor Damage (or Control, for the control sets) and Recharge over Accuracy and Endurance Reduction
• For those that PVP, the PVP sets offer additional bonuses for that content.

Many threat toggles benefit from Endurance reduction (and to a lesser extent Accuracy), clicky Threat/Fear attacks require ToHit checks...so against higher-con enemies more accuracy is a good way to improve those powers. The single target Threat and Fear are about as useful as any other single-target control... except that the other controls have a LOT more options for player build variety. Another set of Defense, Defense/Endurance, Defense/Recharge. Defense/Endurance/Recharge, etc. isn't going to do anything different, unless there is a 6th piece with something like a global... that doesn't already exists in that type of set. And it isn't as if there aren't a great many excellent global pieces already in Defense and Resistance sets.

 

With Defense/Resistance... I don't see the need to create Purple sets for those, for two reasons:

1. The combination of attributes (most?) players want to enhance already exist in the existing Defense and Resistance sets, including one PVP set each for them
2. For many (most?) powers that take Defense or Resistance sets, it is actually quite rare that *I* want to slot even as many as four pieces from any given set! The limits from Enhancement Diversification hit hard, because IIRC the schedule for Defense/Resistance starts at something like 40% for those. The set bonuses have to be really worth it.
3. Defense and Resistance powers already can take many awesome global pieces.

 

@Rudra comprehended. I have a lingering feeling that the original devs avoided anything that could be seen as a boost to Taunts and Fears because of how those might play out in PVP. I don't get the same vibe from the Homecoming devs (who replaced Taunt with Threat), and I know that they are open to new enhancement sets for types of powers that have (generally) poor options otherwise. We have gotten new Endurance Modification sets and one new Slow set specifically because the previously existing sets didn't offer enough useful modification for powers that could take those types of sets.

 

Fear and Threat are now the obvious outliers. I can understand why there isn't a populist uprising calling for new sets (there are a cadre of tankers that don't take Taunt, and I find I have to go out of my way to get a Fear power, let alone wanting to dedicate "Fear" slots to). Yet it is obvious to most anyone who tries to build a character using those powers just how limited the build choices are for those powers. Similar limitations do not exist for Defense or Resistance sets.

Dude why do you keep bringing up pvp, can we stay on topic pve enhancements there are those who don't want any pvp enhancements on their builds so it would help to have an all pve build with these enhancements.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Webmaxx3 said:

Dude why do you keep bringing up pvp, can we stay on topic pve enhancements there are those who don't want any pvp enhancements on their builds so it would help to have an all pve build with these enhancements.

Probably because any enhancements we can slot in PvE can also be used in PvP? So even non-PvP enhancements will affect PvP.

[Webmaxx3]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Probably because any enhancements we can slot in PvE can also be used in PvP? So even non-PvP enhancements will affect PvP.

we need a pve set period. 

[mistagoat]

OP, my apologies if I'm goatsplaing something you already know but ALL the PVP sets are PVE sets that can be used by PVE players in PVE zones, they just get different bonuses in PVP zones. This is why they keep getting brought up, PVP sets are extremely similar to purple sets in function and enhancement value. From my perspective (a vehemently anti-pvp player) they are essentially equivalent. Basically every enhancement set in the entire game is a PVE enhancement set. and there is a small subset of those enhancement sets that have alternate bonuses that only apply in pvp zones.

 

Again, my apologies if I've misunderstood, it just seemed like there was bit of disconnect going on in this thread.

[Uun]

Aside from juicy set bonuses, what purple sets provide is 25% higher enhancement values. For example, a Hecatomb damage/recharge provides 33.127% enhancement to each of these attributes as compared to 26.5% for a standard lvl 50 enhancement. All the existing purple sets enhance four attributes - accuracy, damage, recharge and endurance for attack sets (damage is replaced with confuse, hold, immobilize, sleep or stun for the mezz sets). 

 

The problem with creating purple sets for resistance or defense is that there are only three attributes to enhance (because accuracy isn't required). Following the standard template for 5 enhancement pieces in a defense/resist set (excluding the proc) and multiplying the values by 1.25x, you end up with 87.65% defense/resist (vs. ED max of 56%) and 92.70% recharge and endurance. These values far exceed what anyone would need. For the same reason that most people only slot 4 pieces (plus the proc) of existing purple sets, you would only need to slot 3 pieces (plus the proc) for a hypothetical resist/defense purple set. If it is decided to move ahead with this, my recommendation would be to limit the sets to 4 pieces instead of 6.

[shortguy on indom]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

The problem with creating purple sets for resistance or defense is that there are only three attributes to enhance (because accuracy isn't required). Following the standard template for 5 enhancement pieces in a defense/resist set (excluding the proc) and multiplying the values by 1.25x, you end up with 87.65% defense/resist (vs. ED max of 56%) and 92.70% recharge and endurance. These values far exceed what anyone would need. For the same reason that most people only slot 4 pieces (plus the proc) of existing purple sets, you would only need to slot 3 pieces (plus the proc) for a hypothetical resist/defense purple set. If it is decided to move ahead with this, my recommendation would be to limit the sets to 4 pieces instead of 6.

• SINCE NUMBERS ARE BEING INSERTED INTO THIS DISCUSSION... I TEND TO DISAGREE WITH THIS UNDERLINED ASSUMPTION.
• THE ALPHA POST-ED CAP IS 83%.... AND THIS EXTRA DEF/RES (SCHEDULE B ENHANCEMENTS) CAN MOST DEFINITELY BE USED AT LVL 45+ PLAY IF THE TOON HAS CHOSEN A ALPHA RES/DEF BOOSTING INCARNATE POWER.
• FOR LVL 45 MINUS PLAY WOULD TEND TO AGREE W/ABOVE.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, mistagoat said:

OP, my apologies if I'm goatsplaing something you already know but ALL the PVP sets are PVE sets that can be used by PVE players in PVE zones, they just get different bonuses in PVP zones. This is why they keep getting brought up, PVP sets are extremely similar to purple sets in function and enhancement value.

 

 

10 hours ago, Webmaxx3 said:

Dude why do you keep bringing up pvp, can we stay on topic pve enhancements there are those who don't want any pvp enhancements on their builds so it would help to have an all pve build with these enhancements.

 

[shortguy on indom]

• I CANNOT NOT ENDORSE POWERCREEP BEING ADVOCATED ON THIS THREAD REGARDING THREAT/FEAR.
• GIVING TOONS THE ABILITY THAT HAVE THE HIGHEST MULTIPLIERS FOR THESE POWERS IN THE GAME PURPLE SETS IS NOT A GOOD THING IMHO.
• THEY JUST DON'T SEE IT AS SUCH... EVEN THOUGH THIS WAS A RES/DEF THREAD WHICH HAD ZERO TO DO W/THIS.

Edited July 25 by shortguy on indom
a nicer/gentler reply.

[shortguy on indom]

• TAUNT/THREAT/FEAR ARE SCHEDULE A ENHANCEMENTS.
• AS SUCH WHEN AN INCARNATE ABILITY IS CHOSEN THAT AMPLIFIES THEM...
• THEY GET SUPER-AMPLIFIED. SEE HERE.
•  

 

Edited July 28 by shortguy on indom
removed chart

[shortguy on indom]

• RESISTANCE AND DEFENSE ARE ON THE OTHER HAND SCHEDULE B ENHANCEMENTS.
• EVERYTHING ON SCHEDULE B HAS BEEN NERFED ALREADY.
• SCHEDULE B ENHANCEMENTS DO NOT GET BOOSTED BY INCARNATES ANYWHERE CLOSE TO SCHEDULE A ENHANCEMENTS.
• SEE HERE.
• EVERYTHING ELSE BAIT AND SWITCH. 
• THERE IS NO COMPARING THESE SCHEDULE A VS SCHEDULE B ENHANCEMENTS AS BEING EQUAL IN ANY WAY.
• ADVOCATING FOR THE FEAR/TAUNT PURPLES IS POWER-CREEP WHETHER YOU REALIZE IT OR NOT.
• ______________________ INSERT CATCHY VID CLIP HERE.

 

Edited July 28 by shortguy on indom
removed chart

[tidge]

34 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

• TAUNT/THREAT/FEAR ARE SCHEDULE A ENHANCEMENTS.
• AS SUCH WHEN AN INCARNATE ABILITY IS CHOSEN THAT AMPLIFIES THEM...

 

Ok, next count for us the number of Incarnate abilities which enhance Threat and Fear and do the same for those which enhance Defense and Resistance.

 

There already exist IOs for both Threat and Fear, my ask is simply for some Enhancement sets which combine/provide for some of the necessary combinations, like Accuracy and Endurance management... you know, like those in other sets which require ToHit checks.

[shortguy on indom]

 

17 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Ok, next count for us the number of Incarnate abilities which enhance Threat and Fear and do the same for those which enhance Defense and Resistance.

 

There already exist IOs for both Threat and Fear, my ask is simply for some Enhancement sets which combine/provide for some of the necessary combinations, like Accuracy and Endurance management... you know, like those in other sets which require ToHit checks.

 

• NOT HELPING WITH THE POWER CREEP BANDWAGON.  LOOKS LIKE ITS COVERED.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

• TAUNT/THREAT/FEAR ARE SCHEDULE A ENHANCEMENTS.
• AS SUCH WHEN AN INCARNATE ABILITY IS CHOSEN THAT AMPLIFIES THEM...
• THEY GET SUPER-AMPLIFIED. SEE HERE.
•  

 

2 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

• RESISTANCE AND DEFENSE ARE ON THE OTHER HAND SCHEDULE B ENHANCEMENTS.
• EVERYTHING ON SCHEDULE B HAS BEEN NERFED ALREADY.
• SCHEDULE B ENHANCEMENTS DO NOT GET BOOSTED BY INCARNATES ANYWHERE CLOSE TO SCHEDULE A ENHANCEMENTS.
• SEE HERE.
• EVERYTHING ELSE BAIT AND SWITCH. 
• THERE IS NO COMPARING THESE SCHEDULE A VS SCHEDULE B ENHANCEMENTS AS BEING EQUAL IN ANY WAY.
• ADVOCATING FOR THE FEAR/TAUNT PURPLES IS POWER-CREEP WHETHER YOU REALIZE IT OR NOT.
• ______________________ INSERT CATCHY VID CLIP HERE.

Where are these charts from? Because they don't look right.

Because this:

 

is the only table I can find on the wiki for this. And it is located here: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Enhancement_Diversification

 

[tidge]

Power Creep is such a weird argument to make for or against any one type of attribute enhancement. The Schedule A/B/C/D ED effects and base values apply for ALL enhancements, Purple, PVP, IO, DO, Hamis, whatever. It isn't as if a hypothetical Fear Purple set is going to ignore ED. IIRC, the existing Nightmare set with boosters can enhance the Fear attribute up to a pre-ED value of almost 126% that gets knocked down to around 99% with ED... and of course ToHit chances can be improved by all sorts of ways on top of what the almost 99% (with ED) slotted Accuracy by that choice of slots.

[shortguy on indom]

• COMPARED TO WHAT?
• WHAT WAS STATED ABOUT ED DOES NOT ACCOUNT FOR INCARNATES AT ALL, THAT IS PROBABLY WHY THE POINT IS BEING MISSED.
• IF ITS NOT POWER CREEP, PROVE A SCHEDULE A WITH A PURP SET (WHICH ARE BOUGHT/USED) AT LVL 50 WITH INCARNATES IS NOT WHAT I HAVE SHOWN ABOVE.

[shortguy on indom]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Where are these charts from? Because they don't look right.

Because this:

• LOOK AGAIN.  MINE SHOWWHAT THAT WEIRD AXIS GRAPH YOU HAVE SHOWN, BUT ON A DIFFERENT SCALE, MINE SEPARATE GRAPHS FOR SCHED A AND SCHED B.
• MINE ARE ALSO ADDING THE RESULTS OF PRE-ED AND POST-ED INCARNATE CALC RESULTS AS WELL TO SHOW THESE FINAL % VALUES.  THIS IS THE POINT BEING MISSED HERE.

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

• LOOK AGAIN.  MINE SHOWWHAT THAT WEIRD AXIS GRAPH YOU HAVE SHOWN, BUT ON A DIFFERENT SCALE, MINE SEPARATE GRAPHS FOR SCHED A AND SCHED B.
• MINE ARE ALSO ADDING THE RESULTS OF PRE-ED AND POST-ED INCARNATE CALC RESULTS AS WELL TO SHOW THESE FINAL % VALUES.  THIS IS THE POINT BEING MISSED HERE.

Maybe you can provide the link to your source like I did?

[shortguy on indom]

53 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Maybe you can provide the link to your source like I did?

• ASKING ME FOR A LINK TO THE MATH?
• WIKI: ED.
• WIKI: INCARNATE ALPHA ABLITIES EXAMPLES.

[Rudra]

25 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

ASKING ME FOR A LINK TO THE MATH?

Yes.

 

25 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

WIKI: ED.

Wiki: Enhancement Diversification is the page I linked in my post. See here: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Enhancement_Diversification

 

26 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

WIKI: INCARNATE ALPHA ABLITIES EXAMPLES.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Category:Alpha_Incarnate_Abilities

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Alpha_Slot_Abilities

I am not seeing your mentioned "Incarnate Alpha Abilities Examples." What I get doing a search for that is: https://homecoming.wiki/w/index.php?search=Incarnate+Alpha+Abilities+Examples&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go

 

So, I am unable to find the graphs you are talking about. I am asking you to please provide the link to your source. I can't read what I can't find.

[shortguy on indom]

• SOURCE IS THE MATH ITSELF.
• HAPPY TO SHOW YOU WHERE AND ALSO HOW TO CALCULATE (STEP BY PAINFUL STEP IF NEED BE) IT IF IT WILL HELP STOP PROMOTING THIS POWERCREEP ESPECIALLY IN SCHEDULE A ENHANCEMENTS.
• WHY IS THIS BAIT AND SWITCH GOING ON IN THIS THREAD ANYWAY.  JUST A CLICK TO START UR OWN REGARDING THIS.
• WILL KEEP CALLING YAS OUT ON THIS MISINFO AS LONG AS IT TAKES TO STOP PROMOTING POWERCREEP.  
• TRY PARAGON WIKI INCARNATE ALPHA ABILITIES... SCROLL DOWN TO EXAMPLES.  LINK HERE:  Alpha Slot Abilities - Paragon Wiki Archive  

[shortguy on indom]

• CAN YOU DIG IT?...
• OR GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE PRE-ED AND DEFINE IF SCHEDULE A OR B, WILL EITHER WORK OUT W/YOU VIA MESSAGING OR HERE IN THIS THREAD IF IT WILL HELP. LMK. 

[Rudra]

25 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

TRY PARAGON WIKI INCARNATE ALPHA ABILITIES... SCROLL DOWN TO EXAMPLES.  LINK HERE:  Alpha Slot Abilities - Paragon Wiki Archive  

Nope. That is the same data page as the Homecomingwiki link I posted.

 

26 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

SOURCE IS THE MATH ITSELF.

You made it yourself then from the graph I linked. That was all I was asking.

[shortguy on indom]

8 hours ago, Rudra said:

You made it yourself then from the graph I linked. That was all I was asking.

• DID NOT USE THAT GRAPH YOU POSTED FOR ANYTHING.
• THAT GRAPH HAS PROBABLY CAUSED MORE CONFUSION THAN GOOD.