DEFCON 5: Defender vs Controller - Which is the Better Support AT?

[wednesdaywoe]

I have independently researched, tested and reviewed everything —and definitively concluded that Defenders are the highest form of life. Case closed!

Edited March 23 by wednesdaywoe

[Dark Current]

18 hours ago, wednesdaywoe said:

I have independently researched, tested and reviewed everything —and definitively concluded that Defenders are the highest form of life. Case closed!

 

I sense zero bias in this statement.

[Dark Current]

My Reaction and Analysis video of the Vexaris team trials is up!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tjknight]

On 3/22/2025 at 10:38 PM, Dark Current said:

DEFCON 1 is underway! Getting ready for Trap-off between my defender and controller to see who is nastier!

 

The Matchup video:

 

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In the Blue Corner, we have my defender Cherie da Bom, a lunatic on the fringe who packs an AR named Boom Boom Pow and a bag full of tricks. Inspired by the Punisher and the Green Goblin.

 

MIDS Build:  Cherie da Bom - Defender (Traps).mbd 43.41 kB · 2 downloads

 

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And in the Red Corner, is my controller Vexaris, an illusionist who wields the power of a trickster god through mystical artifacts recovered from an ancient temple. 

 

MIDS Build:  Vexaris - Controller (Illusion Control).mbd 45.38 kB · 2 downloads

 

 

 

@sawgrass here ... Just a side comment .... I ❤️ the concept for this guy. Re-imagining traps as mystical artifacts totally works.  The character concepts for this game are like 50% of the fun for me!!! 

[Dark Current]

17 hours ago, tjknight said:

 

@sawgrass here ... Just a side comment .... I ❤️ the concept for this guy. Re-imagining traps as mystical artifacts totally works.  The character concepts for this game are like 50% of the fun for me!!! 

Thanks, Saw! I agree about character concepts being the foundation for fun. If I can't get into a character, I find it's generally the concept and costume just haven't gelled yet.

 

I wish we had customizable objects beyond weaponry. Or powers you could replace with objects. I'd love the Blackwand to shoot dark blast powers from!

[FFTMime]

I'll be honest, back on live I was a Grav/Kin Controller main, Space Cat, even back when they didn't have double damage to controlled targets. Space Cat was a space catgirl with a garrish color scheme that was kicked off of her home planet for being too annoying. Having kept playing the same controller till I quit the game, I can safely say...

CONTROLLER TRASH

I never even played Defenders. I just know how bad controllers really are. It was always a passion. Not a decision based on functionality. It's bad. They're bad. There are tons of reasons why. Unless successive updates have done something incredibly silly, they have the simple problem of being the most helpful AT to have around in every situation except the exact situations you want help in. At which point they can't even get double damage procs,, and having played controller since near release I can say you may as well expect them to go brawl the target at that point.  It is the most fun AT in the game both in gameplay and concept and the worst designed from a realistic standpoint of how the game wants to work. Which is a shame cause it's the closest you will ever feel to being an actual wizard. Terrible at killing but essentially unassailable. 

That said, I don't doubt somehow madmen can proc build and power pool their way to success regardless.  I don't know a lot about Homecomming itself. 

I post this before reading the thread to see just how wildly my opinion changes post research. 

[Maelwys]

On 3/26/2025 at 12:42 AM, FFTMime said:

That said, I don't doubt somehow madmen can proc build and power pool their way to success regardless.  I don't know a lot about Homecomming itself. 

Procs and Power pools are nice, but IMO by themselves they're rarely the primary factor behind whether a given toon will perform well or not.

A large part of Controller performance on teams is going to come from their "Support" set; and certain powersets simply don't care about the higher buff/debuff scalars of a Defender because you become "capped" just as easily on other lower-scalar ATs. Kinetics is a prime example of this: Fulcrum Shift spam is going to get you to the damage cap regardless of whether it's from a Defender or a Controller or even a Mastermind. Marine Affinity is another one that can work better on non-Defenders - the more friendly entities attacking (e.g. MM Henchmen or Controller Imps/Phantom Army/Vines/etc) the more damage Shifting Tide procs deal.

There are also a good few standout "Control" powersets: Plant is widely regarded as the best all-rounder; to the point that many won't play it because it makes things "too easy" (Seeds of Confusion + Creepers can practically carry a whole team by itself) . However Arsenal can come pretty close (Smoke Cannister + Sleep Grenade/Flashbang spam) and has the ability to tank AVs. And obviously Illusion becomes very good too whenever you get sufficient recharge for Perma Phantom Army (and give them the Soulbound proc) - but opportunities to leverage Containment are few and far between on it. And IMO this is the biggest point worth making about damage procs on Controllers - using them in attacks that have low base damage but reasonably high base recharge (e.g. many controller abilities) will provide a noticeable boost to that attack's damage without you having to jump through hoops to leverage containment... and whilst they don't benefit from +damage buffs; they will from -resistance debuffs (e.g. what your 'Support' powerset is may be very relevant here). 

Epic/Patron pools can also provide a big boost; depending on how you choose to go. Armor toggles. Decently-damaging attacks. Powerful Debuffs (like Poisonous Ray). More Pets. Endurance Management tools. Mez Protection. Self-Healing. Self-Rez. Damage/ToHit buffs. And Power Boost (absolutely huge for Forcefield and Time Manipulation).

As for pool powers? Specific ones can be leveraged to add a large amount of performance in specific situations ('Hasten' for Perma-PA Illusion Controllers; for example) and whenever you combine them with Procs a few pool powers will become surprisingly good sources of damage and/or debuffs (such as 'Weaken Resolve' from the Force of Will pool) but IMO usually they'll only be providing minor additional utility or a filler attack or two; rather than a character-defining boost in performance.

[FFTMime]

5 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Procs and Power pools are nice, but IMO by themselves they're rarely the primary factor behind whether a given toon will perform well or not.
 

I guess one can't bleed a stone.

I've started a Fluff/Fluff controller, and I am in love all over again. The -ToHit really helps in the interm, but I know this is a temporary life. I still remember being on a TF where we simply did not have the damage to kill the AV, and at that moment I wished I had spent all those hours leveling a blaster instead. Any blaster. Maybe a defender at least. It's, sadly, one of my core original COH memories. At least it made me appreciate the role blasters played. You don't know to appreciate having a nice overtuned one till you need it. 

I mean you are there for catching runners or the occasional enemy making a run at the blaster. The blaster you do genuinely need more than you are needed. They'll be incredibly thankful you were on the look out for it. Since even great tankers need a moment to respond to that. Silly things can still happen. 

 

I don't know. I just wish there was another AT I enjoyed this much. 

[Carnifax]

1 hour ago, FFTMime said:

I've started a Fluff/Fluff controller, and I am in love all over again. The -ToHit really helps in the interm, but I know this is a temporary life. I still remember being on a TF where we simply did not have the damage to kill the AV, and at that moment I wished I had spent all those hours leveling a blaster instead. Any blaster. Maybe a defender at least. It's, sadly, one of my core original COH memories. At least it made me appreciate the role blasters played. You don't know to appreciate having a nice overtuned one till you need it. 

 

A Dark / Dark controller will be laying on -Resists and -Regens so they definitely pull their weight on TFs and vs AVs. Plus pet damage from the doggie & haunts. And keeping the bugger in one place. 

 

I basically kept Rommie on his back (steady) yesterday on an ITF with my Fire / Marine. And was donating damage via the Imps ("free" damage with regards to animation times), +dam to the whole team and -resist on Rommie. 

 

Here's a side by side parse of that run vs a Dual Pistols / Kin corruptor I ran earlier this week. Definitely held my own. 

[FFTMime]

6 hours ago, Carnifax said:

Here's a side by side parse of that run vs a Dual Pistols / Kin corruptor

I've been skimming the forum for a sense of how things work in Homecoming, and I've never seen something nice said about Dual Pistols. Just how bad is it? 

[Carnifax]

3 hours ago, FFTMime said:

I've been skimming the forum for a sense of how things work in Homecoming, and I've never seen something nice said about Dual Pistols. Just how bad is it? 

AoE is good. Likes to be in melee. Can't compete with Fire or Ice in single (like most sets) but it's great fun. 

[FFTMime]

So one of those low single target damage but high aoe sets. I could see why a lot don't like it as such. Something to be said for designating the toughest guy in the room for death RIGHT NOW. Particularly on a blaster.