Bane Spider - all mace, all day

[Onlyasandwich]

Hi there folks!

 

It's official - Arachnos Soldier is the only primary or secondary I have never made. It's time to get dirty and join the baddies! 

 

At some point I'm going to spool up a Crab build of some kind for an alt build, but Bane looks like a fun place to start.

 

I've reviewed lots of builds and seen many excellent options, but always prefer to spin my own take on things. I'd love your feedback!

 

My goals:

• Max hit chance against +3's. I'm okay relying on global bonuses to get there.
• Go crazy with procs - optimizing for maximum overall damage first and foremost.
• Drown in FFback as much as possible, layer on global recharge where I can.
• Softcap all positions, reaching for a bit of extra pad where there is no big trade-off to do so.
• Maximize resists across the board, especially S/L.
• Slow resist - as much as I can sqeeuze in!

 

Thematic considerations:

• All mace! I don't want to pop out the gun or spit any epic attacks. There are plenty of great attacks in the pools and initial gun attacks of course, but they are not for my macey guy.
• Self-contained - no summons. I know call reinforcements is a great power, but unless I'm summoning a mace that floats around and beats things at my command, it's not for this build.

 

Power considerations:

• Web Envelope here is mostly a mule, but it still comes from the mace, and I can see double stacking immob coming in handy. 
• Surveillance. I had this procced out originally, but chose to steal these slots to maximize S/L resist (5th slot in lotgs). Do you feel it was a worthy trade? (7.5% S/L res vs ~120 damage on this power)
• Poisonous Ray seems like a potential drop/swap. However, the DPA is good procced out, and it's nice to have a little bit of a ranged option. Do you like it on your macey builds? Without it, I think I'd have to rely on Bash a little more often than I prefer to round out ST.
• Leadership. I don't have it! How much of a miss do you consider this, since VEATs have such excellent modifiers? I have the in-set powers of course. I originally had it, but retooled for tough/weave, which seem pretty important to achieve softcap goals and add a layer of meat. I could swap combat jumping for maneuvers, but it would put me a bit over the line in end consumption for my preference. I feel like I would probably prioritize this more on a future crab build with summons.
• Knockback protection. I have 7 points, which is decent but not ideal. I'd like room for one more KB prot IO. What would you swap for it?

 

Note that I have all FFback powers toggled off for procs. Toggle on one at a time to see true damage totals (mids gets wonky with multiple FFback on).

 

EDIT: Updated build.

 

Build:

Arachnos Soldier (Bane Spider Soldier - Bane Spider Training) less sl.mbd

 

Picture:

Spoiler

Text:

Spoiler

Villain Arachnos Soldier
Build plan made with Mids' Reborn v3.7.5 rev. 21
──────────────────────────────

• Primary powerset: Bane Spider Soldier
• Secondary powerset: Bane Spider Training
• Pool powerset (#1): Leaping
• Pool powerset (#2): Speed
• Pool powerset (#3): Fighting
• Pool powerset (#4): Leadership
• Ancillary powerset: Mace Mastery
  

──────────────────────────────

Powers taken:

Level 1: Bash

• A: Superior Spider's Bite: Damage/RechargeTime
• 33: Superior Spider's Bite: RechargeTime/Global Toxic
• 45: Superior Spider's Bite: Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
• 45: Superior Spider's Bite: Accuracy/Damage
• 45: Superior Dominion of Arachnos: Accuracy/Damage
• 46: Superior Dominion of Arachnos: Recharge/Chance for -Dmg and Terrorize
  

Level 1: Bane Spider Armor Upgrade

• A: Unbreakable Guard: Resistance
• 3: Unbreakable Guard: Resistance/Endurance
• 3: Unbreakable Guard: RechargeTime/Resistance
• 37: Unbreakable Guard: +Max HP
• 40: Steadfast Protection: Resistance/+Def 3%
• 43: Steadfast Protection: Knockback Protection
  

Level 2: Combat Training: Defensive

• A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• 5: Shield Wall: Defense
• 34: Shield Wall: +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)
• 46: Kismet: Accuracy +6%
  

Level 4: Combat Jumping

• A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• 5: Winter's Gift: Slow Resistance (20%)
  

Level 6: Wide Area Web Grenade

• A: Gravitational Anchor: Immobilize
• 7: Gravitational Anchor: Immobilize/Recharge/Accuracy
• 7: Gravitational Anchor: Recharge/Accuracy
• 46: Gravitational Anchor: Immobilize/Endurance
• 50: Gravitational Anchor: Chance for Hold
  

Level 8: Build Up

• A: Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control: Chance for Build Up
  

Level 10: Tactical Training: Maneuvers

• A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• 11: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Endurance
• 11: Luck of the Gambler: Defense
• 33: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Endurance/Recharge
  

Level 12: Venom Grenade

• A: Ragnarok: Damage
• 13: Ragnarok: Chance for Knockdown
• 13: Positron's Blast: Chance of Damage(Energy)
• 25: Javelin Volley: Chance of Damage(Lethal)
• 25: Bombardment: Chance for Fire Damage
• 34: Annihilation: Chance for Res Debuff
  

Level 14: Pulverize

• A: Hecatomb: Damage
• 15: Hecatomb: Damage/Endurance
• 15: Hecatomb: Chance of Damage(Negative)
• 17: Touch of Death: Chance of Damage(Negative)
• 17: Mako's Bite: Chance of Damage(Lethal)
• 23: Gladiator's Strike: Chance for Smashing Damage
  

Level 16: Hasten

• A: Invention: Recharge Reduction
• 29: Invention: Recharge Reduction
  

Level 18: Shatter

• A: Superior Blistering Cold: Accuracy/Damage
• 19: Superior Blistering Cold: Damage/Endurance
• 19: Gladiator's Strike: Chance for Smashing Damage
• 21: Touch of Death: Chance of Damage(Negative)
• 21: Explosive Strike: Chance for Smashing Damage
• 23: Force Feedback: Chance for +Recharge
  

Level 20: Frag Grenade

• A: Positron's Blast: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• 39: Positron's Blast: Chance of Damage(Energy)
• 39: Bombardment: Chance for Fire Damage
• 39: Overwhelming Force: Damage/Chance for Knockdown/Knockback to Knockdown
• 40: Explosive Strike: Chance for Smashing Damage
• 40: Force Feedback: Chance for +Recharge
  

Level 22: Mental Training

• A: Invention: Run Speed
  

Level 24: Tactical Training: Leadership

• A: Adjusted Targeting: To Hit Buff/Endurance
  

Level 26: Crowd Control

• A: Armageddon: Damage
• 27: Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage
• 27: Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage
• 29: Obliteration: Chance for Smashing Damage
• 31: Fury of the Gladiator: Chance for Res Debuff
• 31: Force Feedback: Chance for +Recharge
  

Level 28: Placate

• A: Invention: Recharge Reduction
  

Level 30: Cloaking Device

• A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• 37: Reactive Defenses: Defense
• 48: Reactive Defenses: Defense/Endurance
• 50: Reactive Defenses: Scaling Resist Damage
  

Level 32: Surveillance

• A: Achilles' Heel: Chance for Res Debuff
  

Level 35: Poisonous Ray

• A: Superior Winter's Bite: Accuracy/Damage
• 36: Superior Winter's Bite: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• 36: Apocalypse: Damage
• 36: Apocalypse: Chance of Damage(Negative)
• 37: Gladiator's Javelin: Chance of Damage(Toxic)
• A: Touch of Lady Grey: Chance for Negative Damage
  

Level 38: Kick

• (Empty)
  

Level 41: Tough

• A: Gladiator's Armor: End/Resist
• 42: Gladiator's Armor: Resistance
• 42: Gladiator's Armor: TP Protection +3% Def (All)
  

Level 44: Web Envelope

• A: Superior Frozen Blast: Accuracy/Damage
• A: Superior Frozen Blast: Damage/Endurance
• A: Superior Frozen Blast: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• A: Superior Frozen Blast: Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
• A: Superior Frozen Blast: Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• A: Superior Frozen Blast: Recharge/Chance for Immobilize
  

Level 47: Weave

• A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• 48: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Endurance
• 48: Luck of the Gambler: Defense
• 50: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Endurance/Recharge
  

Level 49: Tactical Training: Assault

• A: Invention: Endurance Reduction
  

──────────────────────────────

Inherents:

Level 1: Conditioning | Hidden

Level 1: Brawl

• (Empty)
  

Level 1: Sprint

• (Empty)
  

Level 2: Rest

• (Empty)
  

Level 1: Swift

• (Empty)
  

Level 1: Hurdle

• (Empty)
  

Level 1: Health

• A: Panacea: +Hit Points/Endurance
• 43: Miracle: +Recovery
  

Level 1: Stamina

• A: Performance Shifter: Chance for +End
• 42: Performance Shifter: EndMod
  

 

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 05:12 PM by Onlyasandwich

[Onlyasandwich]

I did some messing about to optimize damage in Shatter. Lost 3.75 S/L res, but a fair trade in damage with F/C resist alongside.

 

Build:

Arachnos Soldier (Bane Spider Soldier - Bane Spider Training).mbd

[tidge]

I don't MIDS, so what follows is my preference with no point of comparison:

 

I rely somewhat on Placate to deal best damage with Mace. I didn't have 6 slots for it, but I did choose to 3x Mocking Beratement (Accuracy/Recharge, Threat/Recharge, Threat/Range). Recharge, Accuracy and Range were all somewhat important... Range felt odd at first, but I found I needed it to be able to close gaps against enemies for melee.

 

I 2-slotted Surveillance with 50+5 Analyze Weakness (Accuracy/Recharge, Accuracy/Endurance Reduction/Recharge). I don't think this is worthwhile to %proc, especially since it requires a ToHit check, but I see what you are trying to do. Mace attacks feel a little slow (to me) to leverage the 10sec duration of the proc, MMV.

 

I never put that many slots in Weave (or any level 47+ power pick). This is where I would steal slots from to make minor changes.

 

If the ToHits aren't satisfactory against +3, Combat Training: Defensive is where I put the Kismet +ToHit piece.

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

I rely somewhat on Placate to deal best damage with Mace. I didn't have 6 slots for it, but I did choose to 3x Mocking Beratement (Accuracy/Recharge, Threat/Recharge, Threat/Range). Recharge, Accuracy and Range were all somewhat important... Range felt odd at first, but I found I needed it to be able to close gaps against enemies for melee.

To reinforce Tidge's point. Placate is critical post page 7 to playing a melee Bane as opposed to a Huntsbane.

 

Placate is both an offensive and defensive power. You want it up as often as possible. Mocking Beratement also gives some s/l resists.

 

Here is my current build.

Page 7 Banemrf - Arachnos Bane Spider Soldier.mbd

[Maelwys]

Taking the Mace Mastery Patron Pool and not grabbing Shatter Armor‽‽ 🤯
Procbomb Poisonous Ray, but don't bother with sticking any in Surveillance unless you want it to start causing aggro (ordinarily you can use it whilst stealthed...)
The rest looks largely OK, although personally I'd pull most of the slots out of the T1 Armor and Maneuvers/Weave and use them for a few more procs - a Power Transfer Proc in Stamina + a Preventive Medicine Global will likely give you better sustain than a smidge extra +res anyway.

[KaizenSoze]

37 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Taking the Mace Mastery Patron Pool and not grabbing Shatter Armor‽‽ 🤯
Procbomb Poisonous Ray, but don't bother with sticking any in Surveillance unless you want it to start causing aggro (ordinarily you can use it whilst stealthed...)

 I was never a big fan of Shatter Armor before page 7 and now I really don't think it's worth the power cost. Just taking Web Envelope because of the now awesome WAWG to me is a good choice. You have controller level immobilization which prevents runners, which is really helpful for melee.

 

I do agree on Surveillance. I would stick a Accuracy SO or Analyze Weakness Acc/Recharge in there so you don't break stealth. On my Huntsbane I do slot Achilles' -resist because that's a ranged build.

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, KaizenSoze said:

 I was never a big fan of Shatter Armor before page 7 and now I really don't think it's worth the power cost.

It's identical DPA to Shatter (albeit it won't benefit from Stealth Crits) but it procs much better and includes a guaranteed -20% res debuff for 20s.
I guess that might not be a huge concern if you're only ever fighting single targets, but it makes a hefty difference to Pylon/AV times.

(With ED-capped damage aspect and 3x 3.5PPM procs in each, I end up with ~265 DPA for Shatter vs ~315 DPA for Shatter Armor... and the latter can ED-cap recharge and maintain >90% activation rate for the procs. FWIW I still tend to go Soul on my Bane... but I remember heavily testing out the different Epics on my VEATs and Mace Mastery with Shatter Armor was the only other one that came anywhere close vs a tough single target; mainly due to the extra -res. Though that fact that I could basically substitute SA it for Shatter without disrupting my chain's timing was a plus too!)
 

Edited Monday at 03:16 PM by Maelwys

[Onlyasandwich]

Thanks for taking a look, folks!

 

@tidge The 4th lotgs for both powers are there for the Global accuracy. I have leaned into procs here, and these bonuses keep me at max hit chance against +3's on all powers. If you see a more efficient path to maintain accuracy without losing damage, I'm very open to further optimization! If I'm going to overslot something in pursuit of accuracy bonuses, doing so in my highest return defensive powers gets me that much closer to my softcap goals as well.

 

Speaking of which, placate is already at max hit chance even as is. Although there are some nice sets for threat/placate, they don't serve any specific goals in this build, and the recharge/acc are sufficient with the one slot. I would have to tank my global acc or sacrifice procs to invest the slots.

 

To @Maelwys, Shatter Armor is a nice power, but what would you drop, and where would the slots come from? 

 

The slots in the maneuvers and weave are serving global accuracy needs to enable procs, and I also rely on the melee defense bonus in unbreakable from the T1 armor to softcap melee. Even then, every other attack power is already 6 slotted and maximized for procs - do you see any missed targets where I didn't optimize for procs with this slotting? I'd love to find a spot for the PM proc, as I agree it's very effective but don't see any easy flex slots to pull from.

 

My latest iteration does not include damage procs in Surveillance, and I've made further adjustments to balance the return on procs between shatter/pulverize.

 

Build:

Arachnos Soldier (Bane Spider Soldier - Bane Spider Training) less sl.mbd

Text:

Spoiler

Villain Arachnos Soldier
Build plan made with Mids' Reborn v3.7.5 rev. 21
──────────────────────────────

• Primary powerset: Bane Spider Soldier
• Secondary powerset: Bane Spider Training
• Pool powerset (#1): Leaping
• Pool powerset (#2): Speed
• Pool powerset (#3): Fighting
• Pool powerset (#4): Leadership
• Ancillary powerset: Mace Mastery

──────────────────────────────

Powers taken:

Level 1: Bash

• A: Superior Spider's Bite: Damage/RechargeTime
• 33: Superior Spider's Bite: RechargeTime/Global Toxic
• 45: Superior Spider's Bite: Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
• 45: Superior Spider's Bite: Accuracy/Damage
• 45: Superior Dominion of Arachnos: Accuracy/Damage
• 46: Superior Dominion of Arachnos: Recharge/Chance for -Dmg and Terrorize

Level 1: Bane Spider Armor Upgrade

• A: Unbreakable Guard: Resistance
• 3: Unbreakable Guard: Resistance/Endurance
• 3: Unbreakable Guard: RechargeTime/Resistance
• 37: Unbreakable Guard: +Max HP
• 40: Steadfast Protection: Resistance/+Def 3%
• 43: Steadfast Protection: Knockback Protection

Level 2: Combat Training: Defensive

• A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• 5: Shield Wall: Defense
• 34: Shield Wall: +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)
• 46: Kismet: Accuracy +6%

Level 4: Combat Jumping

• A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• 5: Winter's Gift: Slow Resistance (20%)

Level 6: Wide Area Web Grenade

• A: Gravitational Anchor: Immobilize
• 7: Gravitational Anchor: Immobilize/Recharge/Accuracy
• 7: Gravitational Anchor: Recharge/Accuracy
• 46: Gravitational Anchor: Immobilize/Endurance
• 50: Gravitational Anchor: Chance for Hold

Level 8: Build Up

• A: Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control: Chance for Build Up

Level 10: Tactical Training: Maneuvers

• A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• 11: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Endurance
• 11: Luck of the Gambler: Defense
• 33: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Endurance/Recharge

Level 12: Venom Grenade

• A: Ragnarok: Damage
• 13: Ragnarok: Chance for Knockdown
• 13: Positron's Blast: Chance of Damage(Energy)
• 25: Javelin Volley: Chance of Damage(Lethal)
• 25: Bombardment: Chance for Fire Damage
• 34: Annihilation: Chance for Res Debuff

Level 14: Pulverize

• A: Hecatomb: Damage
• 15: Hecatomb: Damage/Endurance
• 15: Hecatomb: Chance of Damage(Negative)
• 17: Touch of Death: Chance of Damage(Negative)
• 17: Mako's Bite: Chance of Damage(Lethal)
• 23: Gladiator's Strike: Chance for Smashing Damage

Level 16: Hasten

• A: Invention: Recharge Reduction
• 29: Invention: Recharge Reduction

Level 18: Shatter

• A: Superior Blistering Cold: Accuracy/Damage
• 19: Superior Blistering Cold: Damage/Endurance
• 19: Gladiator's Strike: Chance for Smashing Damage
• 21: Touch of Death: Chance of Damage(Negative)
• 21: Explosive Strike: Chance for Smashing Damage
• 23: Force Feedback: Chance for +Recharge

Level 20: Frag Grenade

• A: Positron's Blast: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• 39: Positron's Blast: Chance of Damage(Energy)
• 39: Bombardment: Chance for Fire Damage
• 39: Overwhelming Force: Damage/Chance for Knockdown/Knockback to Knockdown
• 40: Explosive Strike: Chance for Smashing Damage
• 40: Force Feedback: Chance for +Recharge

Level 22: Mental Training

• A: Invention: Run Speed

Level 24: Tactical Training: Leadership

• A: Adjusted Targeting: To Hit Buff/Endurance

Level 26: Crowd Control

• A: Armageddon: Damage
• 27: Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage
• 27: Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage
• 29: Obliteration: Chance for Smashing Damage
• 31: Fury of the Gladiator: Chance for Res Debuff
• 31: Force Feedback: Chance for +Recharge

Level 28: Placate

• A: Invention: Recharge Reduction

Level 30: Cloaking Device

• A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• 37: Reactive Defenses: Defense
• 48: Reactive Defenses: Defense/Endurance
• 50: Reactive Defenses: Scaling Resist Damage

Level 32: Surveillance

• A: Achilles' Heel: Chance for Res Debuff

Level 35: Poisonous Ray

• A: Superior Winter's Bite: Accuracy/Damage
• 36: Superior Winter's Bite: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• 36: Apocalypse: Damage
• 36: Apocalypse: Chance of Damage(Negative)
• 37: Gladiator's Javelin: Chance of Damage(Toxic)
• A: Touch of Lady Grey: Chance for Negative Damage

Level 38: Kick

• (Empty)

Level 41: Tough

• A: Gladiator's Armor: End/Resist
• 42: Gladiator's Armor: Resistance
• 42: Gladiator's Armor: TP Protection +3% Def (All)

Level 44: Web Envelope

• A: Superior Frozen Blast: Accuracy/Damage
• A: Superior Frozen Blast: Damage/Endurance
• A: Superior Frozen Blast: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• A: Superior Frozen Blast: Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
• A: Superior Frozen Blast: Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• A: Superior Frozen Blast: Recharge/Chance for Immobilize

Level 47: Weave

• A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• 48: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Endurance
• 48: Luck of the Gambler: Defense
• 50: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Endurance/Recharge

Level 49: Tactical Training: Assault

• A: Invention: Endurance Reduction

──────────────────────────────

Inherents:

Level 1: Conditioning | Hidden

Level 1: Brawl

• (Empty)

Level 1: Sprint

• (Empty)

Level 2: Rest

• (Empty)

Level 1: Swift

• (Empty)

Level 1: Hurdle

• (Empty)

Level 1: Health

• A: Panacea: +Hit Points/Endurance
• 43: Miracle: +Recovery

Level 1: Stamina

• A: Performance Shifter: Chance for +End
• 42: Performance Shifter: EndMod

Picture:

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 03:18 PM by Onlyasandwich

[Maelwys]

4 minutes ago, Onlyasandwich said:

To @Maelwys, Shatter Armor is a nice power, but what would you drop, and where would the slots come from? 

 

The slots in the maneuvers and weave are serving global accuracy needs

From what I can see you're still lacking a Kismet? Between that and a smidge more +ToHit in Tactical Training:Leadership you can likely drop a few +Acc bonuses.

Personally my Bane-with-Mace-Mastery variant (currently unused in favour of /Soul) looks like this:

Spoiler

There's technically a spare slot in Placate (the +Rech) but it's providing more benefit there than it would elsewhere.
The Numina in Health is a bit less disposable because I'm leaning into +Recovery so that I can use a Destiny other than Ageless.

Whilst I don't particularly like WAWG (although I can appreciate that it's a good AoE Immobilize; IMO outside of particular AV fights the time taken to cast it could be better spent braining things with Venom Grenade + Crowd Control + Dark Obliteration etc) dropping Pummel and Call Reinforcements for Bash/MaceBeam and Frag Grenade should be quite doable without disrupting very much. And you could even drop the Travel Power to fit WAWG in if you pick up your KB protection from elsewhere.

[Onlyasandwich]

48 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Kismet

The latest build in my post above has kismet.

 

I could shift slots towards tactical training, but the return is not incredible, and still these are slots spent - so at best a wash with the slots in weave/manuevers. The slots in the defensive powers are meaningfully nudging my softcap totals as well.

 

WAWG here is mostly present as an incredible mule for 7.5% aoe defense. There is no better slot for slot return on aoe defense than a full set of Frozen Blast! The other set bonuses are decent as well. It helps that the power has a use case as well (locking down a whole spawn from runners).

 

Your build is a little more balanced between traditional slotting and a few key procced powers. Mine is all-in on procs for every primary power in my rotation, (Bash is filler/not very proc worthy anyhow) which necessitates a greater commitment to global acc.

 

Placate is a power I've grown to learn and love on my Stalkers! I truly appreciate all it can do both defensively and offensively. I wonder - what powers do you usually save it for in practice? For single target, the best use case is Shatter, which effectively returns ~230 DPA on the placate usage, which is about as good (or a bit less than) just throwing another power in my ST rotation unless that power would be Bash.

 

It looks like Placate may be best reserved for big aoe hits or as a defensive tool, or as a setup tool when I'm closing range.

 

I could probably move things around to replace Shatter with Shatter armor. I have no doubt this would be very strong in some situations! Probably not an ideal trade though, as my overall attack chain would suffer, especially at lower levels. I would also lose the FFback opportunity in my ST chain. I like to keep it rolling no matter what the target saturation! Poisonous Ray is another potential swap, but I like the bit of range, and its DPA is rather excellent even without counting how it leverages the extra -res to toxic damage from Venom Grenade. I feel like all of these are probably about equal choices in the long run.

 

 

Edited Monday at 04:47 PM by Onlyasandwich

[Maelwys]

39 minutes ago, Onlyasandwich said:

Placate is a power I've grown to learn and love on my Stalkers! I truly appreciate all it can do both defensively and offensively. I wonder - what powers do you usually save it for in practice? For single target, the best case use is Shatter, which effectively returns ~230 DPA on the placate usage, which is about as good (or a bit less than) just throwing another power in my ST rotation unless that power would be Bash.

I'll usually open from Stealth with CrowdControl+VenomGrenade+DarkObliteration, then Tab to a particularly chonky Boss and use Poisonous Ray; then finally activate Placate to set up either Shatter (followed by Gloom/PoisonousRay/Pulverize spam) or another CrowdControl (depending on mob density). Placate is now AoE so it can take a little bit of heat off you whilst you focus on tougher Single Targets one by one.

(and yes, Pummel is only taken as a low-level filler and mule for the 4-piece ATO set bonus!) 😉

 

Edited Monday at 05:04 PM by Maelwys

[tidge]

5 hours ago, Onlyasandwich said:

Thanks for taking a look, folks!

 

@tidge The 4th lotgs for both powers are there for the Global accuracy. I have leaned into procs here, and these bonuses keep me at max hit chance against +3's on all powers. If you see a more efficient path to maintain accuracy without losing damage, I'm very open to further optimization! If I'm going to overslot something in pursuit of accuracy bonuses, doing so in my highest return defensive powers gets me that much closer to my softcap goals as well.

 

Speaking of which, placate is already at max hit chance even as is. Although there are some nice sets for threat/placate, they don't serve any specific goals in this build, and the recharge/acc are sufficient with the one slot. I would have to tank my global acc or sacrifice procs to invest the slots.

 

I don't want to write something that you don't want to read, but how about getting 5-slot bonus from Hecatomb in Pulverize? I'd drop the Lethal/Smashing %damage pieces. (note: I didn't check the whole build if you already have 5 +15% Accuracy and +10% Global Recharge bonuses.)

 

Level 14: Pulverize

• A: Hecatomb: Damage
• 15: Hecatomb: Damage/Endurance
• 15: Hecatomb: Chance of Damage(Negative)
• 17: Touch of Death: Chance of Damage(Negative)
• 17: Mako's Bite: Chance of Damage(Lethal)
• 23: Gladiator's Strike: Chance for Smashing Damage

 

Edited Monday at 08:18 PM by tidge
Groucho

[Onlyasandwich]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

I don't want to write something that you don't want to read, but how about getting 5-slot bonus from Hecatomb in Pulverize?

I coooould, but then I lose 100 damage in Pulverize! The extra acc would be enough to pull the 4th lotg in both sets and push 2 slots to serve other goals, so it's not a bad trade necessarily, especially with the additional 10% recharge.

 

However, in for a proc, in for a pound! Procs stay, baby 😉 .

 

The only remaining question here is whether I pick up Shatter Armor in place of one of Pulverize, Shatter, or Poisonous Ray. I think I'm good as is! May just put it through its paces and see how I roll from there. I don't want my rotation to be overly reliant on 2+ second animation powers.

 

Edited Monday at 09:38 PM by Onlyasandwich

[Onlyasandwich]

It occurs to me that, weirdly, this guy isn't super far off of a very proccy force field defender with a mace, but minus the ally buff shields.. Even the damage values aren't substantially different if you compare with a highly optimized Defender attack set. Crits are a big deal though - I'm sure that covers some of the distance.

 

For some reason I had this impression that they'd be a little crunchier. The damage is very serviceable, but it really is closer to a support character than I thought. That's not a bad thing, but just wasn't my first impression of the AT.

 

 

[Maelwys]

That's probably fair. I've always viewed VEATs as passive ally Buffers with decent damage, personal defenses and mez protection. They're all capable of fulfilling multiple "roles" on a team simultaneously without crippling their own damage output (unlike Kheldians who outside of their animation-cancelling exploit are still stuck in a bad place)

 

Whilst it's a drastic oversimplification; Banes could be pictured as something of a "Stalker analogue" since they lean more towards Stealth and Melee attacks (with forced crits); compared to Crabs who are more of a "Brute/MM Hybrid" being a lot hardier with more pets. However the -res and -def they both output makes them powerful debuffers too.

Widows probably veer a bit more towards "Scrapper" territory (insane DPA and better survivability but very End heavy) and Forts towards "Dominator" territory (less survivable but with more Control plus a +mez passive, and they love global recharge)

 

I'll typically reach for my Bane if I know that the team is AoE heavy; because it acts as a force multiplier (AoE -res plus the leadership buffs) and has high levels of ST damage for focussing tougher Bosses/EBs/AVs. Whereas the Crabbermind comes out if the team is more balanced and has solid aggro control (the pets are great at mopping up but I don't want them to die too quickly) or if I just fancy some extra crazy bedlam. And since I have both builds on the same toon, switching between the two is just a matter of hitting a single macro button... 😁

 

Edited Tuesday at 08:16 AM by Maelwys

[tidge]

15 hours ago, Onlyasandwich said:

I coooould, but then I lose 100 damage in Pulverize! The extra acc would be enough to pull the 4th lotg in both sets and push 2 slots to serve other goals, so it's not a bad trade necessarily, especially with the additional 10% recharge.

 

I'll take you at your word that it is a net loss of 100 damage (some off-brand, some not) over some period of time... but my thinking is: Pulverize is a single-target attack. The extra damage would be most noticeable on something like a pylon test or an AV/GM, but less so on large spawns.

[Onlyasandwich]

7 minutes ago, tidge said:

over some period of time

The period of time would be per activation of the power. 

[tidge]

17 minutes ago, Onlyasandwich said:

The period of time would be per activation of the power. 

 

For %proc, you have to consider the chances of each to %proc... in other words, each hit of an attack isn't guaranteed to do the same amount of damage, which is why I mentioned averaging over time.

 

9 hours ago, Onlyasandwich said:

It occurs to me that, weirdly, this guy isn't super far off of a very proccy force field defender with a mace, but minus the ally buff shields.. Even the damage values aren't substantially different if you compare with a highly optimized Defender attack set. Crits are a big deal though - I'm sure that covers some of the distance.

 

This should be no big surprise, considering that the goal was to build it for %damage. The inherent base damage scales for defender attacks is just a little over half that of soldiers, %damage values from procs don't scale for ATs. My experience is that most %damage (and %-res) reveals itself best in AoE attacks against large spawns, so while there are some more opportunities for melee AoE from a Mace-wielding Bane that a Defender would have access too... melee still has the opportunity penalty of needing enemies close enough to do the melee attacks. See my casual point above about slotting some range enhancement in Placate; Placate is a small AoE that will (solo) stop enemies in their tracks and allow for whatever melee attack (ST, AoE) to be made against them, with the chance for extra damage.

 

@Maelwys nailed the circumstances for which I think Soldiers shine best: On a force with AoE attacks (because of the -res debuffs). The team buffs are GREAT, but they can be somewhat hard to quantify for large teams that move fast and may not stick together... but IMO an advantage that a Mace-Bane has will be that they shouldn't "accidentally" get in over their heads.

 

EDIT: I just want to add this personal feel about %procs... I *like* the PPM system because it can smooth out the reward performance (i.e. clear times) between different ATs, as well as the possibility of adding off-type damage to primaries/secondaries. I find the former reason to be the best reason to leverage %damage on low-damage scale ATs, and the latter reason to leverage %damage on the power sets from certain ATs (for example: psi-heavy attack sets).

Edited Tuesday at 01:12 PM by tidge

[Onlyasandwich]

52 minutes ago, tidge said:

For %proc, you have to consider the chances of each to %proc... in other words, each hit of an attack isn't guaranteed to do the same amount of damage, which is why I mentioned averaging over time.

Indeed! On average, the current slotting provides 100 damage per activation. Some activations the procs will provide more than 100, some less. As long as I can stay alive, I'm happy enough living in the averages. 😄

 

Even compared to the proccy Defender, the bane has a higher cycling high damage aoe in Crowd Control, and of course crits, so still some modest advantages here. Definitely proc-oriented builds will be closer to even across ATs than those without! I guess I was mostly surprised at how the layout of their set is sort of sneakily similar to a support set. Well - it is a support set I suppose! This isn't any news to folks who have played them as you noted. 

 

With my builds, I start with some baseline goals and hard focus. In this case, softcap to all and absolute damage maximization of mace attacks. Once I achieve that, I start to evaluate what I would gain by backing off of those goals. In this case, I could add some modest defensive utility (PM proc, maybe some S/L res, power transfer heal proc, more KB protection. The extra recharge doesn't hurt either) if I sacrificed some proc potential in Pulverize. Overall, these wouldn't be bad trades. However, I'm happy enough with the current defensive package that I'll take the 100 average damage in a staple ST attack. 

 

I definitely use and love Placate on my stalkers! What powers do you like to setup for crits with Placate, @tidge?

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 01:59 PM by Onlyasandwich

[KaizenSoze]

33 minutes ago, Onlyasandwich said:

I definitely use and love Placate on my stalkers! What powers do you like to setup for crits with Placate, @tidge?

Shatter and Crowd Control.

[tidge]

Yep... there is no particular deep thinking involved with Placate. It is pretty much used when available when standing toe-to-toe. The only times I think about *not* using it are when:

1. A crit wouldn't be necessary anyway (including when a teammate is likely to blow away any targets)
2. I can't close the distance to a group or hard target I will want to melee (usually because there will be a ranged attack made)

I like the timing/availability of Placate and Surveillance, one is more for me, one is more for the team.

 

EDIT: I have a third, corner-case, to avoid using Placate... occasionally a squishy teammate will be near me, and I don't want to shed any aggro onto them.

Edited Tuesday at 03:28 PM by tidge

[Onlyasandwich]

Fair enough! No need to overthink it, I suppose.

 

My last little thought - I'm considering swapping Bash out for Mace Beam. The idea being I won't really be relying on either for my normal rotation, except when exemping, and either one is mostly a set mule. Why not add the utility of a ranged attack? Being able to spam beams and Poisonous Ray when needed is at least a tiny little trick to have.

 

Attack chain calculation is both an iffy science at best and subject to so much variance based on the reality of how the game plays out. Do you find yourself relying on Bash very often to maintain your cycle?

 

 

 

 

[KaizenSoze]

2 hours ago, Onlyasandwich said:

My last little thought - I'm considering swapping Bash out for Mace Beam. The idea being I won't really be relying on either for my normal rotation, except when exemping, and either one is mostly a set mule. Why not add the utility of a ranged attack? Being able to spam beams and Poisonous Ray when needed is at least a tiny little trick to have.

I think this is a good idea as you will often just be out of range of the next target.

 

And sometimes don't want to be in melee range.

Edited Tuesday at 05:37 PM by KaizenSoze

[Maelwys]

9 hours ago, Onlyasandwich said:

Attack chain calculation is both an iffy science at best and subject to so much variance based on the reality of how the game plays out. Do you find yourself relying on Bash very often to maintain your cycle?

My Bane's "optimal" Single Target Attack Chain does not actually use either the T1 attack (Bash/Pummel/MaceBeam) or Crowd Control.
The former is used when I exemplar; and the latter when there is enough around me to justify AoEing (which is pretty frequent!)
 

It's Venom Grenade > Poisonous Ray > Dark Obliteration > Gloom > Shatter > Poisonous Ray > Pulverize > Gloom > Shatter and with the Decimation in Gloom and -Res (plus averaged -res procs) that works out at ~325.4771 DPS. In theory the "Call Reinforcement" pets can add up to ~121.1431 on top of that; but not in practice... 🙈

 

Spoiler

If I focus more on AoE then I can swap Pulverize for Crowd Control. The resulting chain becomes a bit less neat (it's still seamless but now requires two activations of Venom Grenade before it starts to loop) however it's nearly the same average damage over time (~317.7212 DPS plus ~122.9119 for the pets).
 

Spoiler

Whilst both chains can run indefinitely without any gaps; in practice it's rare that there are a constant supply of enemies (outside of AE Farms at least!) and I'd typically want to pop Build Up and Placate and occasionally take a moment to reposition myself. So this is mostly theoretical "what's my potential damage output versus a big immobile sack of infinite HP" stuff... but it proves the point that I don't need a T1 attack; and that I could even in theory drop Pulverize entirely (or at least juggle some slots around and move my Hecatomb proc from it to Shatter!) and be no worse off...
 

Edited yesterday at 12:55 AM by Maelwys