Should All Melees

[Naraka]

41 minutes ago, Uun said:

Brute/tank damage auras also require a tohit check for the damage component. The taunt component is autohit, as it is for all taunt auras, whether damaging or not and regardless of AT. It's the taunt aura that draws foes in and keeps them close to you, not the damage aura. Scrapper taunt auras work exactly the same way as brute/tank taunt auras, with the only difference that they're mag 3 instead of mag 4. I've played Invulnerability on a scrapper since 2004 and have no issue standing in the middle of hoards of enemies. (I also do this on Rad and Shield armor scrappers.)

 

Nobody is trying to one-up you. You made blanket statements about how ATs are designed and what their roles are. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. You keep on conflating damage auras with aggro control when they have nothing to do with it. Taunt auras control aggro, whether they're on a scrapper, brute or tank. 

 

I appreciate you backing my point.  Although the prospect that the taunt portion is autohit escapes me, I never said the damage taunts.

 

I will quote myself *again* because in all your years of playing CoH, you don't see to want to read: 

 

"Scrappers give up a slight ST advantage to get higher overall DPS via AoE and strong ST with crits but it doesn't get taunt in its damage auras + it has less defensiveness to be able to stick around in hoards of enemies to do the AoEs."

 

"I know that Scrappers have buff/debuff auras that have a taunt element...that's why my initial post specifically said "damage auras".  The post was describing the differences between the ATs' sets, i.e. why Tankers get some extra range on their AoEs."

 

"They are. I literally just described the distinguishing factors between them."

 

"They designed it so that Scrapper's aptitude for aggro is less than either Brute or Tanker.  It's reflected in lack of punchvoke, weaker taunt in buff/debuff auras, single target Confront vs AoE Taunt and no taunt in damage auras."

 

"It's just a fact, just like it's a fact that Scrapper damage auras just do more base damage.  Exceptions can also exist while a fact is true, like damage auras cannot crit, the exception is Quills but that doesn't alter the fact that damage auras aren't designed to crit...or taunt for Scrappers."

 

Couple that with your post just now that "Brute/tank damage auras also require a tohit check for the damage component. The taunt component is autohit", that's literally describing what my original post said as I re-quoted for you because you can't read.  So not only do Tanker get taunt in their damage auras while Scrappers do not, but apparently the taunt is also auto-hit.

 

As for laser focusing on the ToHit part, I mostly brought that up to indicate damage (the first part of the damage aura), not specifically that damage taunts. We all know that powers in CoH are compartmentalized for the individual effects, so for a power to taunt, it has to have taunt in the power, same for if it buffs the user, it has to have that component in the power or if it interacts with an inherent ability, it has to have the inherent ability *IN* the power.  The statement said "damage auras for Scrappers don't taunt" because the devs designed it not to and that is the literal statement I made AND outlined BECAUSE I'm pointing to the DIFFERENCES that were DESIGNED into the powers.

 

Do you honestly think you're going to swat your ruler on the white-board of how many raids you've done and that matters? The only reason I mentioned having the discussion about Gauntlet Changes in the past is because it's actually relevant to the discussion.

 

[venetiasilver]

My little post of Melee AT's getting better AoE in their Primaries went into Taunt Auras
Lol.

[aethereal]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

That's a foolish outlook.

 

Especially considering many powers cross ATs outside of powersets.

 

But go ahead and save face.

 

You're desperately wrong, but even if you were right that it's "foolish" to balance sets, not powers (and it is very much the opposite of foolish), they do in fact balance sets, not powers.  If you want to go yell at the clouds regarding how it should be cool for let's say Claws to get Frozen Touch because powers should be balanced atomically, feel free.  But recognize the fact that despite your preferences here, your preferences are not being followed.

 

To go back to the (correct) point that you had at the beginning, regardless of the reason for things, facts are facts.  ~100% of all Bio Armor characters have a taunt and a damage aura surrounding them.  What actual difference would it make to anyone's actual play experience if those two effects were colocated into a single power versus being effects of separate powers?

 

 

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

Quote what I said that was wrong. I'll wait.

 

For sure!  You said, "It's not a coincidence, it's by design," where the antecedent of "it" was "scrapper damage auras don't taunt."

 

The wrong part is suggesting that there is a design principle for scrapper damage auras not to taunt.  As we both agree, they don't (besides Bio), but it's not a design principle.

 

 

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

Also, no one was making the statement that tanks get taunt and not confront. 

 

Yes, I know.  Jesus christ, trying to follow the conversation.  You said, "[scrappers get] single target Confront vs AoE Taunt."  I used that as an example of one of the things that you said that was straightforwardly correct, because you later asked why I was laser-focused on the thing about Scrapper damage aura/taunt as a design principle.  I'm laser focused on things we disagree about.  When you say things that are straightforwardly correct, I don't argue with you about them.  Are you caught up now?

 

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

Agreed with who?

 

You!

 

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

I repeat, quote where I'm misrepresenting how something was designed.

 

Quoted above.

 

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

I just double checked; no where in my initial post did I say "armor set" or even "sets" at all. I only spoke of damage auras in the context that they aren't aggro tools for Scrappers.

 

Taunt auras are one-per-set.  You don't get separate multiple taunts in any set in the game.  Again, if you want, you can shout at clouds that sets are designed and balanced as wholes, nobody can stop you from having bad opinions.  But the clear fact is that sets are balanced as wholes.

 

So the question is, do sets get taunt auras, and do sets get damage auras.  Scrappers usually don't get both, with one exception, Bio.  But this is not because there is a design principle forbidding Scrappers from getting both, it's because taunt auras are only given to Scrappers in certain somewhat narrow circumstances, and it just happens that Dark, Fire, Stone, and Electric don't have that circumstance.

[Naraka]

33 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

You're desperately wrong, but even if you were right that it's "foolish" to balance sets, not powers (and it is very much the opposite of foolish), they do in fact balance sets, not powers. 

 

You have a bad habit of making strawman arguments.

 

The "foolish outlook" part was in regards to the "This is a distinction without a difference" statement.  I'm not talking about balancing anything, I'm talking about making powers distinct not by just what powerset it's in but who's using it.

 

You just chose to divorce my whole post from talking about the differences between certain powers across ATs to some ridiculous tangent you made up because you need to save face.

 

37 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

 

To go back to the (correct) point that you had at the beginning, regardless of the reason for things, facts are facts.  ~100% of all Bio Armor characters have a taunt and a damage aura surrounding them.  What actual difference would it make to anyone's actual play experience if those two effects were colocated into a single power versus being effects of separate powers?

 

 

Not that I actually care, but since you seem to love nitpicking, I'll show you how to do it correctly. No, 100% of Bio Armor characters have a taunt and a damage aura. Stalkers and Sents exist. Also you have to actually select both the taunt and damage aura on a character to *have* them and since Genetic Contamination is at earliest a level 22 skill, leveling Bios won't have it until then. And don't think you get off by using a "~", if 2/5 of the Bio users don't have a taunt and damage aura, that isn't anywhere near 100%.

 

47 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

 

For sure!  You said, "It's not a coincidence, it's by design," where the antecedent of "it" was "scrapper damage auras don't taunt."

 

The wrong part is suggesting that there is a design principle for scrapper damage auras not to taunt.  As we both agree, they don't (besides Bio), but it's not a design principle.

 

 

That's easy. Scrappers were designed to be less capable tanks than Brute and Tankers. Just like their regular attacks don't taunt, neither do their damage auras.  It *IS* a design principle.

 

I never made any argument about an absence of taunt on Scrappers therefore we are not in agreement unless you're attempting to concede your argument against what I initially said.

 

51 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

Quoted above.

 

 

Try again.

 

53 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

Taunt auras are one-per-set.  You don't get separate multiple taunts in any set in the game. 

 

Are you sure about that?

 

[Maelwys]

13 hours ago, aethereal said:

You don't get separate multiple taunts in any set in the game. 

Tanks and Brutes do; mainly as a result of Gauntlet/Punchvoke kicking in for anything that affects enemies. Dark Armor by itself has like five.

But yeah, AFAIK on Scrappers all the primaries just get one (Confront) and some secondaries get one (a single Taunt Aura).
To be fair, Bio Armor's power descriptions mention taunt in both DNA Siphon and Evolving Armor; but the former doesn't actually inflict any Taunt effects.
 

Edited Friday at 05:30 PM by Maelwys

[JJDrakken]

On 3/6/2025 at 7:38 PM, venetiasilver said:

My little post of Melee AT's getting better AoE in their Primaries went into Taunt Auras
Lol.

 

Because at the end of the day. Folks here in AT area just wanna argue with each other for no other then to argue or debate or whatever.

 

Just same thing said a different way, but it's still same thing. 😛