Saga Mode

[Troo]

5 hours ago, lemming said:

Less of a shuffle than a compression.  Similar to not having to wait until level 14 for travel powers.

 

I can agree with compression.. 

..and am still comfortable with the premise: Homecoming has already granted "access to powers that the content within the level range isn't designed for."

 

Dropping Tanker, Defender, etc. tier 7 attack -4 levels, tier 8 attack -7 levels, tier 9 attack -8 levels.

Dropping Brute, Blaster, Corrupter, etc. tier 8 attack -4 levels, tier 9 attack -6 levels.

We even have outliers like Tanker Total Focus went from level 38 to level 20 (-18 levels?! is that even correct? dang).

Scorpion Shield from Mace Mastery went from level 41 to level 35 for many.

 

I can agree with the availability compression being "Similar to not having to wait until level 14 for travel powers."

 

I can also see @battlewraith feeling that their suggestion is "Similar to not having to wait until level 14 for travel powers."

 

The original post suggestion would need some refinement, That said, I can picture interesting aspects. 

It's somewhat along the lines of power creep we have already experienced.

 

Edited March 14 by Troo

[Stormwalker]

20 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

I can agree with compression.. 

..and am still comfortable with the premise: Homecoming has already granted "access to powers that the content within the level range isn't designed for."

 

Dropping Tanker, Defender, etc. tier 7 attack -4 levels, tier 8 attack -7 levels, tier 9 attack -8 levels.

Dropping Brute, Blaster, Corrupter, etc. tier 8 attack -4 levels, tier 9 attack -6 levels.

We even have outliers like Tanker Total Focus went from level 38 to level 20 (-18 levels?! is that even correct? dang).

Scorpion Shield from Mace Mastery went from level 41 to level 35 for many.

 

I can agree with the availability compression being "Similar to not having to wait until level 14 for travel powers."

 

I can also see @battlewraith feeling that their suggestion is "Similar to not having to wait until level 14 for travel powers."

 

The original post suggestion would need some refinement, That said, I can picture interesting aspects. 

It's somewhat along the lines of power creep we have already experienced.

 

 

To be honest, it's a lot more drastic than the power creep we have already experienced, and I think this is the core of most people's objection to it (not to mention, some of us - and I am in this camp - think there has been too much power creep already and we don't need more, but there seems to be more objection to this idea than most suggestions which would add power creep, and I think that's because the degree of power creep involved exceeds the tolerances even of many players who are OK with power creep in small doses).

 

I would not want to see this suggestion implemented on the shard I'm currently playing on, where my existing characters reside.  A separate shard created with this ruleset from the beginning?  I'd be fine with that, though I probably wouldn't play there because the idea doesn't really interest me that much.

 

I don't want to see the low-level game balance completely blown up on the servers that I play on (because unlike the OP, I do think the low-level game is fun and worth playing just the way it is right now!), though, and this suggestion would do that.

 

Simply put, I don't want to join a Posi 1 TF and find out I'm in a team with people who already have their T9's, etc.  That's not a kind of gameplay I am interested in.

Edited March 14 by Stormwalker

[battlewraith]

3 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

Simply put, I don't want to join a Posi 1 TF and find out I'm in a team with people who already have their T9's, etc.  That's not a kind of gameplay I am interested in.

 

This post is amusing to me because I was hammered for pages by people claiming that nobody would want to do this feature--it's nothing new, would gimp your character, etc. 

And at the same time, there's an acknowledgement that people actually would want to do this feature--to the extent it poses some sort of existential threat to your gameplay.

 

First of all, why would it be such a big deal to run a Posi or whatever, and specify that you don't want this type of character on your team? It seems to me that you are rejecting an idea that you fear would be popular enough with other people to impact you solely because you don't want to be bothered taking the simple steps to rule it out. In comparison, I despise badges. I have wasted countless hours of my life in missions where we had to jump through additional hoops because somebody wanted some badge that did not benefit me in any way. But you're not going to find me anywhere on these forums weighing in on new badges because it is not what I am interested in.

 

Secondly, maybe there is a way to reconcile what this proposal is going for with at least some of the concerns expressed by people here. As I've repeatedly stated, I acknowledge that this specific idea is extremely unlikely to happen. But it's indicative of the type of thing I think they should do--structural options that add some sort of gameplay appeal to existing content for people who would like to see something different. Maybe your shard idea would work. You could play this mode on another shard, but if you transferred back it would be in normal mode. That at least is a constructive suggestion.

[ZacKing]

10 hours ago, Troo said:

 

I love dodge and re-frame the discussion.

 

Here's what I asked you:

 

Didn't this already happen with the powers shuffle we already saw on Homecoming?

 

And I love people who don't understand the difference between an apple and an orange. "Powers shuffling" didn't give you the ability to pick a level 30 power at level 2, so there's no comparison between "powers shuffling" and "saga mode".

 

Let's try another approach here.  One of the stated goals for saga mode is to "breathe new life into old content" by making "lower level content palatable again".  Let's say I want to roll an Axe/Shield scrapper.  I start out by picking Beheader and Deflection.  I run around Atlas Park and defeat some mobs to hit level 2. I visit Miss Liberty and start leveling up.  At level 2 I pick Chop.  I pick up a door mission and head over to the location.  I'm in the mission, clicking Chop and Beheader, wait for them to recharge so I can click them again, rinse and repeat moving from mob to mob until the mission is done.  I repeat this process as I run more door missions.

 

Now, let's say I decide to roll another Axe/Shield scrapper using saga mode.  I start out by picking Beheader and Deflection.  I run around Atlas Park and defeat some mobs to hit level 2. I visit Miss Liberty and start leveling up.  At level 2 I pick Cleave since it's available instead of Beheader.  I pick up a door mission and head over to the location.  I'm in the mission, clicking Chop and Cleave, wait for them to recharge so I can click them again, rinse and repeat moving from mob to mob until the mission is done.  I repeat this process as I run more door missions.

 

What's "new" in that scenario and how is it "breathing new life into old content"?  I'm still waiting around for powers to recharge, hoping my attacks land and I don't get destroyed waiting around for attacks to recharge.  How is that "more palatable"?

 

Next, let's look at this in terms of how power choices and being limited to SOs compares to non-saga mode characters.

 

Playing normally, I gain powers and slots as I level that I can start slotting with IOs to further increase my power level and performance.  As I level up, I gain more powerful attacks and defenses.  Since I can use IOs, my performance gets even better and can be on par with others on a team.  

 

With saga mode, I'd be choosing my best powers first since I can and limiting myself to SOs only.  My build and performance get progressively worse as I level up since I only have weaker attacks and defenses available to choose from.  Since I'm limited to SOs only, my character performs worse than others who are using IOs. 

 

That doesn't sound appealing to me.  The incentive to keep playing is the increase in power and performance, not the worsening of it. 

[ZacKing]

11 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Woosh. Because of exactly the reason I said. Population density. I like many people am at HC because this was the first option I became aware of and it retained the largest playerbase as far as I can tell. I'm not going to start over somewhere else because you don't like my suggestion and think I should move. 

 

"Starting over" is essentially a non-issue on other servers since you can create 50s with all the bells and whistles (IOs, badges, incarnates, inf) on demand for free on a couple of the other servers.  You can create your main character on them in minutes and go have fun.  You can do the exact same thing here on Brainstorm and bypass the whole level progression system, but hardly anyone ever plays on there.  Yeah, your characters would get wiped periodically on Brainstorm, but so what?  They can be rebuilt again in minutes.

 

As for why there's a population on HC, its because people like how the game plays here.  Players fundamentally want to feel like they've earned something in the game, and this server - for better or worse - is providing that experience for them. 

[battlewraith]

4 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

And I love people who don't understand the difference between an apple and an orange. "Powers shuffling" didn't give you the ability to pick a level 30 power at level 2, so there's no comparison between "powers shuffling" and "saga mode".

 

That's not the point. You in your great wisdom said that reordering the powers was gamebreaking "no matter how you slice it."

 

Now with this post, you're going further in the opposite direction. It's not so much that it's game breaking, it's that you're character would actually be so underpowered that it would be weaker than the standard characters. 

 

Yeah? And? The notion that saga mode was about having an OP character was a knee jerk reaction that some people had. It was baggage that got added to this thread. I don't think these characters would be that OP, even at lower levels. And part of the reason I called it "saga mode" was that it would pose something of a challenge for people that are used to trivializing oldschool game balance through expensive enhancements. 

[ZacKing]

4 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

To be honest, it's a lot more drastic than the power creep we have already experienced, and I think this is the core of most people's objection to it (not to mention, some of us - and I am in this camp - think there has been too much power creep already and we don't need more, but there seems to be more objection to this idea than most suggestions which would add power creep, and I think that's because the degree of power creep involved exceeds the tolerances even of many players who are OK with power creep in small doses).

 

Power creep is being addressed with the addition of things like hard mode TFs and the Labrynth of Fog.   The solution to power creep is to create content that's designed for it, not break the rest of the game.

 

One part of this discussion I do agree with is that the people running the game can't produce content fast enough, so discussing incentives for people to run other content in between content drops is good.  Breaking the low level game and progression system isn't solving power creep.  It's more like saying "oh well, power creep exists, so may as well just break everything". 

 

I think the idea of expanding the WST to include various story arcs is a much better idea to get more people to play older content.  There's a tangible reward for doing that and I would guess its easier to implement than something like saga mode.

[battlewraith]

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

 

"Starting over" is essentially a non-issue on other servers since you can create 50s with all the bells and whistles (IOs, badges, incarnates, inf) on demand for free on a couple of the other servers.  You can create your main character on them in minutes and go have fun.  You can do the exact same thing here on Brainstorm and bypass the whole level progression system, but hardly anyone ever plays on there.  Yeah, your characters would get wiped periodically on Brainstorm, but so what?  They can be rebuilt again in minutes.

 

As for why there's a population on HC, its because people like how the game plays here.  Players fundamentally want to feel like they've earned something in the game, and this server - for better or worse - is providing that experience for them. 

LOL just stop. I've played this game since 2004, so for me personally your bs is not compelling. The people I play with, like me, started here because it was the earliest and largest population base that became available. The first thing we did was level up farmers, to skip the grind we've avoided since the retail days. It has nothing to do with the "experience" about which you're opining.

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

That's not the point. You in your great wisdom said that reordering the powers was gamebreaking "no matter how you slice it."

 

Did "power reshuffling" grant you access to level 30+ powers at level 2?  No.  Good try though.

[battlewraith]

Just now, ZacKing said:

 

Did "power reshuffling" grant you access to level 30+ powers at level 2?  No.  Good try though.

That's not what you said though. You said "any way you slice it." I  react  to  the  words  that  you  actually  say. L O L.

[ZacKing]

1 minute ago, battlewraith said:

LOL just stop. I've played this game since 2004, so for me personally your bs is not compelling. The people I play with, like me, started here because it was the earliest and largest population base that became available. The first thing we did was level up farmers, to skip the grind we've avoided since the retail days. It has nothing to do with the "experience" about which you're opining.

 

LOL!  Just stop.  I've played this game since 2004, so for me personally, your idiotic idea for saga mode is not compelling.  The people I play with, like me, started here because it was the earliest and largest population base that became available.  The first thing we did was level up our main characters from the retail days by playing the content.  It had everything to do with experiencing the nostalgia from when the game was live and enjoying that we could play in our favorite city again.  There were and are still quite a lot of people here who enjoy the content and don't just farm up alts. 

[ZacKing]

2 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

That's not what you said though. You said "any way you slice it." I  react  to  the  words  that  you  actually  say. L O L.

 

Show me where powers reshuffling granted you access to level 30+ powers at level 2. 

[battlewraith]

14 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

LOL!  Just stop.  I've played this game since 2004, so for me personally, your idiotic idea for saga mode is not compelling.  The people I play with, like me, started here because it was the earliest and largest population base that became available.  The first thing we did was level up our main characters from the retail days by playing the content.  It had everything to do with experiencing the nostalgia from when the game was live and enjoying that we could play in our favorite city again.  There were and are still quite a lot of people here who enjoy the content and don't just farm up alts. 

 

Yes exactly. What you were describing is what you and your friends got out of the game. Fine. But then when there is a proposal that goes against what you want, you define the entire population in your terms:

28 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

As for why there's a population on HC, its because people like how the game plays here.  Players fundamentally want to feel like they've earned something in the game, and this server - for better or worse - is providing that experience for them. 

 

[battlewraith]

20 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Show me where powers reshuffling granted you access to level 30+ powers at level 2. 

No I don't have to. I never made any claim about power shuffling. 

You said that any restructuring against the intended design would be game breaking "any way you slice it."

Troo called you out about it and now you're shifting the goalposts. 

[Excraft]

13 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Woosh. Because of exactly the reason I said. Population density. I like many people am at HC because this was the first option I became aware of and it retained the largest playerbase as far as I can tell. I'm not going to start over somewhere else because you don't like my suggestion and think I should move. 

 

And this server maintains the highest population because its providing the game experience most people are looking for.  If it weren't, more people would have migrated to other servers.

Edited March 14 by Excraft

[Excraft]

5 hours ago, Troo said:

I can agree with compression.. 

..and am still comfortable with the premise: Homecoming has already granted "access to powers that the content within the level range isn't designed for."

 

Dropping Tanker, Defender, etc. tier 7 attack -4 levels, tier 8 attack -7 levels, tier 9 attack -8 levels.

Dropping Brute, Blaster, Corrupter, etc. tier 8 attack -4 levels, tier 9 attack -6 levels.

We even have outliers like Tanker Total Focus went from level 38 to level 20 (-18 levels?! is that even correct? dang).

Scorpion Shield from Mace Mastery went from level 41 to level 35 for many.

 

This would be true if there weren't several other changes for balance and to how the powers themselves work.  It's not really the same thing as asking for every power in a set to be accessible at any level right from the start.  That's not to say that this was a good idea on the part of HC either.  Some will say - and I don't necessarily disagree - that it further exacerbated the power creep problem. 

 

52 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Yes exactly. What you were describing is what you and your friends got out of the game. Fine. But then when there is a proposal that goes against what you want, you define the entire population in your terms:

 

Honest question - do you believe that most people stay here because they don't like the experience and just don't want to leave?  As has been mentioned here, other servers will let you build a fully kitted out 50 in minutes.  People can re-create their mains in a few minutes.  So why don't they all move en masse?  People have to be getting some level of enjoyment and satisfaction staying here.  I'm just being honest, if you're finding the lower level content that bad, then don't play it.  Find something else to do.  Boredom is a you problem. 

 

As for people wanting to feel like they've earned something, that's true and it's what the HC folks have said themselves in many posts over the years.  Here's one I could find just in a quick search.

 

53 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

No I don't have to. I never made any claim about power shuffling. 

You said that any restructuring against the intended design would be game breaking "any way you slice it."

Troo called you out about it and now you're shifting the goalposts. 

 

See above.  There were other changes made to those abilities, so just opening up access to every power at any level like with saga mode doesn't really compare.  It's not really the same thing.

[ZacKing]

58 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

No I don't have to. I never made any claim about power shuffling. 

You said that any restructuring against the intended design would be game breaking "any way you slice it."

Troo called you out about it and now you're shifting the goalposts. 

 

Again, show me where restructuring granted you access to a level 30+ power at level 2.  What Troo tried to make a comparison to is comparing apples to oranges.  There were other changes made to these powers along with new mechanics and balance passes as part of the change, not just moving around the order without changing anything about the powers themselves.  What your idea is asking for is to just open up access to every power at any level without any changes.  That's not the same thing.  Keep trying though! 

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

Let's try another approach here.  One of the stated goals for saga mode is to "breathe new life into old content" by making "lower level content palatable again".  Let's say I want to roll an Axe/Shield scrapper.  I start out by picking Beheader and Deflection.  I run around Atlas Park and defeat some mobs to hit level 2. I visit Miss Liberty and start leveling up.  At level 2 I pick Chop.  I pick up a door mission and head over to the location.  I'm in the mission, clicking Chop and Beheader, wait for them to recharge so I can click them again, rinse and repeat moving from mob to mob until the mission is done.  I repeat this process as I run more door missions.

 

Now, let's say I decide to roll another Axe/Shield scrapper using saga mode.  I start out by picking Beheader and Deflection.  I run around Atlas Park and defeat some mobs to hit level 2. I visit Miss Liberty and start leveling up.  At level 2 I pick Cleave since it's available instead of Beheader.  I pick up a door mission and head over to the location.  I'm in the mission, clicking Chop and Cleave, wait for them to recharge so I can click them again, rinse and repeat moving from mob to mob until the mission is done.  I repeat this process as I run more door missions.

 

What's "new" in that scenario and how is it "breathing new life into old content"?  I'm still waiting around for powers to recharge, hoping my attacks land and I don't get destroyed waiting around for attacks to recharge.  How is that "more palatable"?

 

Next, let's look at this in terms of how power choices and being limited to SOs compares to non-saga mode characters.

 

Playing normally, I gain powers and slots as I level that I can start slotting with IOs to further increase my power level and performance.  As I level up, I gain more powerful attacks and defenses.  Since I can use IOs, my performance gets even better and can be on par with others on a team.  

 

With saga mode, I'd be choosing my best powers first since I can and limiting myself to SOs only.  My build and performance get progressively worse as I level up since I only have weaker attacks and defenses available to choose from.  Since I'm limited to SOs only, my character performs worse than others who are using IOs. 

 

I think this shows why saga mode isn't worthwhile.  It's not adding anything new to the low level content.  Further, it's basically reversing the power curve where instead of the game becoming more enjoyable at higher level because you've become more powerful, it becomes less enjoyable because you already have the things you wanted at lower level and there's nothing left to really look forward to.  This is made even worse by being limited to SOs only, and the performance hit from that doesn't make characters in saga mode worth the extra effort.  I don't see them being effective in hard mode content either, which is a big part of why many people farm alts and build them specifically for 4 star runs.

[battlewraith]

18 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

And this server maintains the highest population because its providing the game experience most people are looking for.  If it weren't, more people would have migrated to other servers.

 

In your unsubstantiated opinion. And assuming that the game experience is some generic thing to the extent that you can say "no, people don't want that" to a proposal that you don't like. Simply based on your perception of what you and other people like you want. 

 

12 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Honest question - do you believe that most people stay here because they don't like the experience and just don't want to leave?  As has been mentioned here, other servers will let you build a fully kitted out 50 in minutes.  People can re-create their mains in a few minutes.  So why don't they all move en masse?  People have to be getting some level of enjoyment and satisfaction staying here.  I'm just being honest, if you're finding the lower level content that bad, then don't play it.  Find something else to do.  Boredom is a you problem. 

 

Honest reply. Reading your question just suggests to me how little thought you're putting into this issue. And how little empathy you have for a perspective outside your own. 

 

"If you don't like the lower level content, don't play it." I generally don't. I skip it, like a lot of people. And I can turn that around and say the exact same thing to you. If you don't like this proposal, you wouldn't be required to do it. Skip it. Find something else to do.

 

"Why don't you leave?" Because this is where I started. This is where my friends are. And this is where I've spent a lot of time grinding shit. There are a lot of reasons why people might want some degree of innovation here in this community. These conversations for me are like arguing with cult members "if you don't accept our ways, you need to leave the community."

 

I suspect that a vocal minority of the population would be more content with no more changes at all, ever, if it meant that their nostalgic vision of the game remained unsullied. Ask yourself that. If they just kept the servers going for the next ten years would you continue to play. If the answer is yes, then I don't think you're ever going to respond well to one of my suggestions. You're posting in bad faith and I'm looking outside the bubble of your concerns.

[battlewraith]

26 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Again, show me where restructuring granted you access to a level 30+ power at level 2.  What Troo tried to make a comparison to is comparing apples to oranges.  There were other changes made to these powers along with new mechanics and balance passes as part of the change, not just moving around the order without changing anything about the powers themselves.  What your idea is asking for is to just open up access to every power at any level without any changes.  That's not the same thing.  Keep trying though! 

 

The game is 20+ years of different eras of development. While the exterior world of gaming has changed as well. You're special pleading. It's game breaking when I suggest something for certain reasons you don't agree with. But it's fine if it's done for reasons you agree with. The point is not that they are the same. The point is that you made a line in the sand--this is gamebreaking--and it turns out that the current reality didn't fit with your arbitrary standard. And doomsday didn't occur. The sky didn't fall. So there's less reason to take your objections seriously, not more.

[Stormwalker]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

This post is amusing to me because I was hammered for pages by people claiming that nobody would want to do this feature--it's nothing new, would gimp your character, etc. 

And at the same time, there's an acknowledgement that people actually would want to do this feature--to the extent it poses some sort of existential threat to your gameplay.

 

First of all, why would it be such a big deal to run a Posi or whatever, and specify that you don't want this type of character on your team? It seems to me that you are rejecting an idea that you fear would be popular enough with other people to impact you solely because you don't want to be bothered taking the simple steps to rule it out. In comparison, I despise badges. I have wasted countless hours of my life in missions where we had to jump through additional hoops because somebody wanted some badge that did not benefit me in any way. But you're not going to find me anywhere on these forums weighing in on new badges because it is not what I am interested in.

 

On your first point, different people have different opinions and expectations, so I don't know why this is shocking to you.

 

If you don't understand why I am not interested in teaming with players who are essentially playing under a completely different ruleset than I am, then I don't know what to tell you.  I am very happy with the balance of the low-level game as it currently exists.  I think it's a lot of fun.  I have no desire to see it radically change.  I have no desire to be in a team with players whose characters have powers that are vastly overpowered for the challenge of the content that we are currently playing.  I also don't want to be in a party with people whose character builds are completely out of whack because they tried to take all their high-end powers and don't have enough recharge or endurance to make those powers work, so they are basically dead weight.  You would see both extremes under your proposal, which is exactly why freeform power selection was abandoned in alpha testing of the original City of Heroes.

 

I don't want to have a Kin defender in my team using Fulcrum Shift at level 15.  I don't want to have Blasters using their nukes in my team at level 15.  Level 15 content is not balanced for those abilities, and you'd end up with two scenarios:

1. Players who were skilled at minmaxing would completely trivialize the low level content, which would not be fun.
2. Players who were not skilled at minmaxing would in many cases produce completely useless builds, which would be dead weight on their teams.

We know this would happen, because, again, these are the exact reasons freeform power selection was abandoned in the CoH alpha to begin with.

 

But ultimately, what this really boils down to, and what people have been trying to tell you but you aren't listening to them, is a philosophical difference between you and them in what constitutes fun gameplay.  You want a game which is much more of a sandbox than HC currently is.  This is why people keep trying to point you to other CoH servers that ARE more sandboxy than HC, because we don't want to turn HC into those servers.  We play on HC for a reason, and that reason is largely that we like the gameplay here the way it is.  If we were looking for a sandbox experience, we would go play on those servers that already exist.

[Stormwalker]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

LOL just stop. I've played this game since 2004, so for me personally your bs is not compelling. The people I play with, like me, started here because it was the earliest and largest population base that became available. The first thing we did was level up farmers, to skip the grind we've avoided since the retail days. It has nothing to do with the "experience" about which you're opining.

 

You do realize there are a bunch of us who don't farm, and don't PL, right?  Who actually enjoy the low level content as it stands?

 

You seem to assume that everyone has the same playstyle that you do, which is simply not the case.

Edited March 14 by Stormwalker

[battlewraith]

1 minute ago, Stormwalker said:

 

On your first point, different people have different opinions and expectations, so I don't know why this is shocking to you.

 

If you don't understand why I am not interested in teaming with players who are essentially playing under a completely different ruleset than I am, then I don't know what to tell you.  I am very happy with the balance of the low-level game as it currently exists.  I think it's a lot of fun.  I have no desire to see it radically change.  I have no desire to be in a team with players whose characters have powers that are vastly overpowered for the challenge of the content that we are currently playing.  I also don't want to be in a party with people whose character builds are completely out of whack because they tried to take all their high-end powers and don't have enough recharge or endurance to make those powers work, so they are basically dead weight.  You would see both extremes under your proposal, which is exactly why freeform power selection was abandoned in alpha testing of the original City of Heroes.

 

I don't want to have a Kin defender in my team using Fulcrum Shift at level 15.  I don't want to have Blasters using their nukes in my team at level 15.  Level 15 content is not balanced for those abilities, and you'd end up with two scenarios:

1. Players who were skilled at minmaxing would completely trivialize the low level content, which would not be fun.
2. Players who were not skilled at minmaxing would in many cases produce completely useless builds, which would be dead weight on their teams.

We know this would happen, because, again, these are the exact reasons freeform power selection was abandoned in the CoH alpha to begin with.

 

But ultimately, what this really boils down to, and what people have been trying to tell you but you aren't listening to them, is a philosophical difference between you and them in what constitutes fun gameplay.  You want a game which is much more of a sandbox than HC currently is.  This is why people keep trying to point you to other CoH servers that ARE more sandboxy than HC, because we don't want to turn HC into those servers.  We play on HC for a reason, and that reason is largely that we like the gameplay here the way it is.  If we were looking for a sandbox experience, we would go play on those servers that already exist.

 

It's not shocking to me, I find this whole experience very typical.

 

I completely understand your reasoning above. What I don't understand is why you keep ignoring the obvious solution.

Don't team with these people. It's that simple. If you don't like it, don't do it.

The situation with Alpha you mention would've been the game at the start, for everyone. My proposal is for experienced players that unlock an option and are further limited with regard to enhancements. 

 

If you saddle every suggestion with the expectation that it appeals to you or else it can't happen, maybe you could do me a solid and explain what it would need to be. Thematically, gameplay wise, etc. Because the virulent opposition to an idea that I've already said I don't see happening is pretty off the hook.

[battlewraith]

7 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

You do realize there are a bunch of us who don't farm, and don't PL, right?  Who actually enjoy the low level content as it stands?

 

You seem to assume that everyone has the same playstyle that you do, which is simply not the case.

Nope. I understand that perfectly. 

 

The reality is actually the opposite. If I make a suggestion that is too sandboxy for people's taste, individuals crawl out of the woodwork and start lecturing me about what the community is like, what it wants, why it's still here, etc. before pointing towards the door and telling me to go elsewhere.

 

[Stormwalker]

21 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

It's not shocking to me, I find this whole experience very typical.

 

I completely understand your reasoning above. What I don't understand is why you keep ignoring the obvious solution.

Don't team with these people. It's that simple. If you don't like it, don't do it.

The situation with Alpha you mention would've been the game at the start, for everyone. My proposal is for experienced players that unlock an option and are further limited with regard to enhancements. 

 

If you saddle every suggestion with the expectation that it appeals to you or else it can't happen, maybe you could do me a solid and explain what it would need to be. Thematically, gameplay wise, etc. Because the virulent opposition to an idea that I've already said I don't see happening is pretty off the hook.

 

The tools that we have for managing the team experience do not allow for filtering out players that way.  The only way you'd find out whether someone was using the alternate ruleset would be to actually examine their power selections.  Forming teams is difficult enough as it is, I really, really, really do not want to have to start asking every single person I try to team with "Are you using saga mode?"  The burden on team leaders is very high as it is, and that won't help matters.  Also, I don't want to have to ask everyone who invites me to a team if anyone on their team is using saga mode.  All that does is introduce additional barriers to teaming that the game doesn't need.

 

Once again, if you want a sandbox experience, there are already existing servers with other players who want a sandbox experience.  Or, if enough players want it to justify the expense, I would not object in the slightest to HC opening up a sandbox-flavored shard for players who want that experience.  I've already said this.  But I don't want to share a shard with players who operate under a completely different ruleset than I do.

 

I don't think that's all that difficult to understand.