I am done with Brutes

[venetiasilver]

To @Maelwys What do you feel about my offerings for their Armor Numbers being improved and the HP buff?

[Erratic1]

17 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

The Critical ATO does swing a lot in Scrapper Favor however Scrappers suffer a worse leveling experience in general and are rewarded for it by doing solid hits across the board and then when you crit proc it feels great.

 

Worse levelling experience? In what way? You can slot the ATO whenever you feel like and on a Defensive armor set, you become sufficiently hard to hit plenty quickly.

[Maelwys]

3 minutes ago, tidge said:

Um... how about "Why should Brutes should have performance equal to Scrappers in terms of +4x8 DPS, by whatever measure?"

Easy: they shouldn't.

Compared to Scrappers; Brutes have a slightly higher survivability baseline, a considerably higher survivability ceiling and vastly better aggro control.
Therefore IMO Brutes should always be dishing out less DPS than Scrappers (and Stalkers too; at least for ST damage) regardless of whether they're playing at +4x8 or -1x1.

_{(Which they already do... however whenever you add ATOs the difference in their damage output becomes incredibly more pronounced; so I'd like it very much if the Brute ATOs got rebalanced. And since rebalancing just one AT's ATOs is very unlikely to happen; I'm hoping for a more general ATO balance pass. Since other AT's ATOs could use some love too; particularly Sentinels!)}
 

[venetiasilver]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Worse levelling experience? In what way? You can slot the ATO whenever you feel like and on a Defensive armor set, you become sufficiently hard to hit plenty quickly.

At 50 Fury you're doing Baseline Scrapper Damage then anything above that you're overtaking Scrappers in 90 out of 100 Hits to Lieutenants and Bosses.
Then 95 out of 100 to Minions. 
The ATO proc for Scrappers is most of the time used in T9's for things like Crushing Uppercut, Eagle's Claw, or Headsplitter / Golden Dragonfly.
And even then you have dice roll that sometimes fails.
and the chance of the proc going of is inconsistent at best.
Overall Brutes are still ranked 9/10 on melee damage.
I just think they need more Survivability buffs.

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

At 50 Fury you're doing Baseline Scrapper Damage then anything above that you're overtaking Scrappers in 90 out of 100 Hits to Lieutenants and Bosses.
Then 95 out of 100 to Minions. 
The ATO proc for Scrappers is most of the time used in T9's for things like Crushing Uppercut, Eagle's Claw, or Headsplitter / Golden Dragonfly.

 

There are in fact two ATOs, one of which ups Critical Hit Chance passively (and meaningfully) and I am certain that neither of my last two Scrappers have their proc ATO in their T9s. Indeed, you can read the discussion here where discussions of the placement of the proc is definitely not in a T9. And that before we get to the fact that you have your T9 nowadays at level 26, which is 1.1% of the experience requirement towards level 50. Maybe on an offensive set with fast recharging attacks you have incentive to place in a T9, but that is not universal.

 

As for getting the ATOs, 200 merits will get you there at a merit vendor. 200 merits is a pretty easy target to hit.

 

19 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

And even then you have dice roll that sometimes fails.

 

 

Yes, and the Brute misses hits too.

20 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

I just think they need more Survivability buffs.

 

Resistance based ones might. Defense based ones, not really.

[Maelwys]

41 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

To @Maelwys What do you feel about my offerings for their Armor Numbers being improved and the HP buff?

Honestly? I think given Scrappers can already Tank the hardest content in the game; giving Brutes higher baseline survivability probably isn't going to matter very much. Whilst it might aid the levelling process... I'm of the opinion that things are currently already very nearly balanced right (Tanker overcap notwithstanding) before ATOs are factored in.


Therefore (as stated previously) I personally am more of a fan of:

(i) Ensuring that all four of the traditional melee ATs get their damage output adjusted to the point where it's balanced appropriately both excluding and inducing ATOs (and I appreciate that my ballpark pulling-numbers-out-of-my-arse notion of "Scrapper and Stalker DPS roughly equal; Brute DPS about 10-15% behind them; then Tanker DPS about 10%-15 behind the Brutes" might be waaaay out of whack with Developer intention!)

(ii) Ensuring that all four of the traditional melee ATs have some place on the team. Stalkers (Stealthy Single Target damage dealers that can't Tank at all) and Scrappers (all-round Damage Dealers that can occasionally Tank) are pretty obvious. But Brutes and Tankers are perhaps less so; since they have very similar levels of aggro control and peak survivability. So  it would be nice if they each ad a useful niche to set them apart from each other that doesn't necessarily revolve around how much damage they deal. Like a higher aggro cap for Tankers; or some kind of buff aura (although I appreciate that might be a stretch!)

 

 

27 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

At 50 Fury you're doing Baseline Scrapper Damage then anything above that you're overtaking Scrappers in 90 out of 100 Hits to Lieutenants and Bosses.
Then 95 out of 100 to Minions. 
The ATO proc for Scrappers is most of the time used in T9's for things like Crushing Uppercut, Eagle's Claw, or Headsplitter / Golden Dragonfly.

Haven't we been over this very same topic at least once before? I'm seriously getting flashbacks... 😳

Even with just SOs and Basic Inherent Critical hits on non-T9 attacks versus non-negligible foes (LTs+), Brutes still typically need to be operating at ~65 Fury to draw level with Scrapper average damage numbers. When you factor in additional damage buffs (like Build Up, Follow Up, AAO, Set Bonuses, Teammate Buffs and/or Alpha Slots) realistically the only time Brutes compare favourably is at very high fury levels (~80+) when the Scrapper is lacking any of their ATOs and isn't fighting enemy ranks above minion.

As a few quick examples:
+ A solo Scrapper without ATOs but with a Musculature Core Alpha and a /SD secondary (AAO vs 1 Foe) @10% Crit Rate will remain ahead of a Brute until 83+ Fury.
+ A solo Scrapper without ATOs but with a Musculature Core Alpha plus a /Bio Secondary (Offense + Hardened Carapace) @10% Crit Rate will remain ahead until 88+ Fury.
+ Even if we just have a Musculature Core Alpha it would only take an additional +17% damage (@80 Fury) for the Scrapper to begin to pull ahead. You can easily hit that passively just via Set Bonuses and a non-activated Assault Hybrid, let alone with stuff like Follow Up or outside buffage from teammates/pets. And that's before ATOs.
 

Edited Thursday at 01:02 AM by Maelwys