srmalloy Posted yesterday at 04:15 AM Posted yesterday at 04:15 AM Monument 2 for the Researcher history badge (the plaque is on the E side of the central building cluster on Talos Island describes Spanky Rabinowitz' birth: "Mayor 'Spanky' Rabinowitz was born on this very street, in 1878 to Aaron and Maria Rabinowitz." The Homecoming wiki page for Talos, describes his activities: "Throughout the 50's and 60's, he steadfastly rose to the challenge of combating giant monstrosities. He became the city's newest marvel and champion." It goes on to describe his last battle: "In the last climactic battle against his arch foe, the Chimera, Talos and the serpentine beast clashed beneath the waters of the bay. A mighty battle ensued, shaking Paragon City to its foundations, tearing a giant rift in the ocean floor from which earth and lava rose to form an island. Known today as Talos Island,..." We know from the Paragon City history page that heroes started appearing in the 1920s and 1930s, so Talos must have been doing his fighting in the 1950s and 1960s, with his final battle occurring no earlier than the 1960s, meaning that Monument 2 for the Researcher badge describes Spanky Rabinowitz as being born in 1878 on a street that wouldn't exist for another 60+ years, being bay/ocean floor prior to Talos' final fight with the Chimera. But the plaque has been around too long, and moving it to somewhere that actually did exist in 1878 would screw up maps, people's acquisition of history badges, and keep us from laughing at what is clearly a poorly-researched retcon, perhaps even Spanky Rabinowitz himself trying to set up his public image... and failing to do the research for where he arranged to have the plaques celebrating his life placed. A sort of cut-rate Emil Christie, as it were.
Rudra Posted yesterday at 04:36 AM Posted yesterday at 04:36 AM (edited) 20 minutes ago, srmalloy said: We know from the Paragon City history page that heroes started appearing in the 1920s and 1930s, Not to doubt you, but the only reference I can find to the 1920s and 1930s was Krylov's mention of mutants appearing, Statesman from 1918 and 1931 (with Statesman becoming empowered in 1918 and publicly fighting crime in Paragon City in 1932), and Baron Zoria in 1914. There are comments about super activities, including the aforementioned Baron Zoria in 1890, Giovanni Scaldi in the 1600s, and a few other entries, that pre-date the 1920s. So are you sure Talos Island didn't exist before 1950? Talos' data only says the 50s and 60s, and while it is easy to read that as the 1950s and 1960s and I for one would definitely read it that way, it doesn't really specify that. Edited yesterday at 04:37 AM by Rudra Edited to add ", that pre-date the 1920s".
BasiliskXVIII Posted yesterday at 05:48 AM Posted yesterday at 05:48 AM 54 minutes ago, Rudra said: Not to doubt you, but the only reference I can find to the 1920s and 1930s was Krylov's mention of mutants appearing, Statesman from 1918 and 1931 (with Statesman becoming empowered in 1918 and publicly fighting crime in Paragon City in 1932), and Baron Zoria in 1914. There are comments about super activities, including the aforementioned Baron Zoria in 1890, Giovanni Scaldi in the 1600s, and a few other entries, that pre-date the 1920s. So are you sure Talos Island didn't exist before 1950? Talos' data only says the 50s and 60s, and while it is easy to read that as the 1950s and 1960s and I for one would definitely read it that way, it doesn't really specify that. If it were on a plaque in game, I could maybe see this being played off as the description of someone from the late 19th century calling back to the years before, but this was setting information for visitors to the official CoH website. It would be very, very odd to make several references to the 20th century, but leave the only years in the description not given a century be referring to the century prior. It also mentions newspapers calling Talos the "Terrific Titan", which is really punchy mid-20th century attention-getting sort of name that would feel anachronistic if it were actually happening in the antebellum period, where more florid, verbose, and religious speech made up the majority of broadsheet headlines. You'd expect something like "Paragon City's modern-day Goliath" rather than "Terrific Titan", especially since at the time "terrific" would be used to mean "inducing terror" and not "fantastic or extraordinary". The villain would be terrific, not the hero. Is it impossible that it could be from 1850s and '60s? No. But I think interpreting it like that would be a significant reach given the context surrounding it.
Rudra Posted yesterday at 06:35 AM Posted yesterday at 06:35 AM (edited) 51 minutes ago, BasiliskXVIII said: If it were on a plaque in game, I could maybe see this being played off as the description of someone from the late 19th century calling back to the years before, but this was setting information for visitors to the official CoH website. It would be very, very odd to make several references to the 20th century, but leave the only years in the description not given a century be referring to the century prior. It also mentions newspapers calling Talos the "Terrific Titan", which is really punchy mid-20th century attention-getting sort of name that would feel anachronistic if it were actually happening in the antebellum period, where more florid, verbose, and religious speech made up the majority of broadsheet headlines. You'd expect something like "Paragon City's modern-day Goliath" rather than "Terrific Titan", especially since at the time "terrific" would be used to mean "inducing terror" and not "fantastic or extraordinary". The villain would be terrific, not the hero. Is it impossible that it could be from 1850s and '60s? No. But I think interpreting it like that would be a significant reach given the context surrounding it. You have a point, but I'm still not convinced. Mostly because I don't see period papers of the time constantly referring to Talos in such verbose manner because of how much print it would eat up over time in their articles. Also because of these two things: a 300 feet tall horned man would still be terror inducing to the public at the time and because according to the Oxford dictionary, as early as 1743, "terrific" also referred to "tremendous". And "Tremendous Titan" being referred to as "Terrific Titan" also makes sense for the period. (Edit: In this case, the use of "terrific" can be a double meaning referring to the terror of a 300 feet tall horned man running about the area and the tremendous size of being a 300 feet tall man.) Edit again: Oh yeah, as far as the referring to the 20th century bit? I agree, believe it or not. As I said in my first post, I also read it that way. I just have to contend with the possibility that there was likely a misunderstanding in the writing at the time, and Talos was meant to be in the 1800s, but got referenced to the 1900s when the data was written. I think there were multiple writers tackling different parts of the game. Yes, that would confirm the OP as it being a bug, and I'm not arguing that part, I'm asking about the overall timeline and how events may have fallen together given the data we have for pre-1920s activities. Edited yesterday at 06:42 AM by Rudra
BasiliskXVIII Posted yesterday at 07:55 AM Posted yesterday at 07:55 AM 1 hour ago, Rudra said: You have a point, but I'm still not convinced. Mostly because I don't see period papers of the time constantly referring to Talos in such verbose manner because of how much print it would eat up over time in their articles. Also because of these two things: a 300 feet tall horned man would still be terror inducing to the public at the time and because according to the Oxford dictionary, as early as 1743, "terrific" also referred to "tremendous". And "Tremendous Titan" being referred to as "Terrific Titan" also makes sense for the period. (Edit: In this case, the use of "terrific" can be a double meaning referring to the terror of a 300 feet tall horned man running about the area and the tremendous size of being a 300 feet tall man.) Edit again: Oh yeah, as far as the referring to the 20th century bit? I agree, believe it or not. As I said in my first post, I also read it that way. I just have to contend with the possibility that there was likely a misunderstanding in the writing at the time, and Talos was meant to be in the 1800s, but got referenced to the 1900s when the data was written. I think there were multiple writers tackling different parts of the game. Yes, that would confirm the OP as it being a bug, and I'm not arguing that part, I'm asking about the overall timeline and how events may have fallen together given the data we have for pre-1920s activities. "Terrific" may have started to broaden in meaning by the 18th century, but the bigger issue isn’t the word itself, it’s how papers of the era actually wrote. Nineteenth-century journalism just didn’t work in catchphrases. The idea that “the newspapers” would all settle on a single nickname like The Terrific Titan feels totally out of step with how the press operated back then, in no small part because communication between the newspapers would be minimal. There's also generally no page-spanning headlines to slap nicknames into to catch attention with. I'd suggest taking at look at the newspapers of the time. The US Library of Congress has a huge collection of scanned copies from all over what was then the US. The style is almost alien to modern readers: front pages were often devoid of what we’d call “news,” columns ran unbroken for paragraphs, and concision simply wasn’t a goal. If anything, each paper likely would have come up with its own florid moniker every time they mentioned him, because that was part of the showmanship. One week he’d be The Giant of Paragon Bay, the next The Mighty Colossus Who Guards Our Shores. That kind of linguistic one-upmanship was how editors sold papers; no one was trying to standardise a brand identity. The use of a concise, repeatable sobriquet like The Terrific Titan belongs much more to the 20th century, when syndication and headline punch became a style in itself. So while it’s technically possible the lore meant the 1850s, everything about the phrasing, the unified nickname, and the rhythm reads like mid-century pulp rather than antebellum reportage.
Rudra Posted yesterday at 08:50 AM Posted yesterday at 08:50 AM 48 minutes ago, BasiliskXVIII said: "Terrific" may have started to broaden in meaning by the 18th century, but the bigger issue isn’t the word itself, it’s how papers of the era actually wrote. Nineteenth-century journalism just didn’t work in catchphrases. The idea that “the newspapers” would all settle on a single nickname like The Terrific Titan feels totally out of step with how the press operated back then, in no small part because communication between the newspapers would be minimal. There's also generally no page-spanning headlines to slap nicknames into to catch attention with. I'd suggest taking at look at the newspapers of the time. The US Library of Congress has a huge collection of scanned copies from all over what was then the US. The style is almost alien to modern readers: front pages were often devoid of what we’d call “news,” columns ran unbroken for paragraphs, and concision simply wasn’t a goal. If anything, each paper likely would have come up with its own florid moniker every time they mentioned him, because that was part of the showmanship. One week he’d be The Giant of Paragon Bay, the next The Mighty Colossus Who Guards Our Shores. That kind of linguistic one-upmanship was how editors sold papers; no one was trying to standardise a brand identity. The use of a concise, repeatable sobriquet like The Terrific Titan belongs much more to the 20th century, when syndication and headline punch became a style in itself. So while it’s technically possible the lore meant the 1850s, everything about the phrasing, the unified nickname, and the rhythm reads like mid-century pulp rather than antebellum reportage. My last comment on this, because again, you have good points but I'm still not convinced. Because I don't expect people writing backstories for a video game to do that much delving into period writing when it has already been shown they did not even check with their fellow writers. So again, to me, it still works for the timeline placing Talos in the 1850s and 60s rather than the 1950s and 60s despite that every time I read his entry, I automatically default to the 1950s and 60s. And the issue I see with the plaque is that the writer neglected to include the century because (s)he/they possibly didn't understand the rest of the city's history/timeline or because whomever wrote the Rabinowitz bit didn't understand the rest of the city's history/timeline. Regardless, either Talos needs to have a correction clarifying what century he was in if he was in the 1800's, or the Rabinowitz data needs correction to fit the timeline. 1
Luminara Posted yesterday at 05:57 PM Posted yesterday at 05:57 PM 13 hours ago, srmalloy said: Monument 2 for the Researcher history badge (the plaque is on the E side of the central building cluster on Talos Island describes Spanky Rabinowitz' birth: "Mayor 'Spanky' Rabinowitz was born on this very street, in 1878 to Aaron and Maria Rabinowitz." The Homecoming wiki page for Talos, describes his activities: "Throughout the 50's and 60's, he steadfastly rose to the challenge of combating giant monstrosities. He became the city's newest marvel and champion." It goes on to describe his last battle: "In the last climactic battle against his arch foe, the Chimera, Talos and the serpentine beast clashed beneath the waters of the bay. A mighty battle ensued, shaking Paragon City to its foundations, tearing a giant rift in the ocean floor from which earth and lava rose to form an island. Known today as Talos Island,..." We know from the Paragon City history page that heroes started appearing in the 1920s and 1930s, so Talos must have been doing his fighting in the 1950s and 1960s, with his final battle occurring no earlier than the 1960s, meaning that Monument 2 for the Researcher badge describes Spanky Rabinowitz as being born in 1878 on a street that wouldn't exist for another 60+ years, being bay/ocean floor prior to Talos' final fight with the Chimera. "During the 1980’s, with dollar signs in their eyes, developers seized the financial opportunity of an island so close to Paragon City. Thus began the Talos Island land boom. Within a matter of months, the once barren island was abuzz with construction sites. As a publicity stunt, the real estate moguls even agreed to name the island after the city’s mythic giant." So the main island didn't exist at all until at least 8 decades after his birth, was uninhabited for another 20-30 years after it was formed, and he would've been 100-110 when the first streets were paved. Cryptic was sloppy with this one. Get busy living... or get busy dying. That's goddamn right.
BasiliskXVIII Posted yesterday at 06:10 PM Posted yesterday at 06:10 PM 8 hours ago, Rudra said: My last comment on this, because again, you have good points but I'm still not convinced. Because I don't expect people writing backstories for a video game to do that much delving into period writing when it has already been shown they did not even check with their fellow writers. So again, to me, it still works for the timeline placing Talos in the 1850s and 60s rather than the 1950s and 60s despite that every time I read his entry, I automatically default to the 1950s and 60s. And the issue I see with the plaque is that the writer neglected to include the century because (s)he/they possibly didn't understand the rest of the city's history/timeline or because whomever wrote the Rabinowitz bit didn't understand the rest of the city's history/timeline. Regardless, either Talos needs to have a correction clarifying what century he was in if he was in the 1800's, or the Rabinowitz data needs correction to fit the timeline. Keep in mind too that the other part of the lore is on Statesman's side of things. Talos claims to have been present for thousands of years, but if he was, then he wasn't public, because per Statesman's profile on the City of Heroes website: "Cole claimed to have unlocked the power of his own Inner Will, an obscure explanation at best. Whatever their true origin, it was undeniable that Cole possessed something that hadn't been seen since the age of the Greek Heroes: superpowers." This is also consistent with the description in the Web of Arachnos novel, where the reappearance of superpowers is directly related to Cole and Richter opening the Well of the Furies. Even Zoria's lore doesn't contradict with this, as he and his followers are an occultists in the 1890s-1910s, but there's no mention of actual magic powers. They descend to the US to search for Oranbega, and aren't heard from again until 1933, where they are now possessed by the ancient Oranbegans and thwarted by the Dream Doctor. Giovanna Scaldi is an unusual outlier, but also a psychic, and the Origin of Power arc carves out a special place for that which could potentially explain that discrepancy. But Talos, if he was stomping around raising islands in the 1850s–60s, would blow a hole in all of that. A 300-foot giant tearing up the coastline and reshaping geography is the kind of event that would define the age, not quietly vanish into folklore. It would directly contradict Statesman’s “nothing since the Greek Age” statement and make the 1930s rediscovery of superpowers feel nonsensical. In an age where powers are intended to be commonplace, however, such as post-1930, the idea that Talos' great battle is just another Thursday in Paragon City makes sense.
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