Sir Myshkin

The only portion that buffs is the Defense. Power Boost doesn't impact the Resistance portion of the ability. This is a baked-in mechanic and does the same thing as it does with Farsight, essentially the same power. A known effect on Live, working as intended. Edit to add: What do Reds have anything to do with that statement either? That makes no sense. And the power taps out around 24-26% boost, that's nothing compared to any of the T9 effects??

My Tanker Folder is filling up with builds as I work through trying to find the most consistent and best options for a primary that gives the most support for the least amount of slots. @Cipher posted up some very interesting metrics today about power set selections at 50. Took a gander at the Tanker portion and the top two choices weren't much of a surprise. I did find it interesting that Energy Melee was as high up as it was. I will definitely be looking closely as this for focusing on a couple of the "lower favored" sets between the melee classes to see how this process may impact them specifically. While not a 1 for 1 trade off, given what's there, I'm betting the less-chosen sets are the "not as strong" feeling choices people are making. You're in luck as I will be visiting some time with Radiation Armor specifically for its two AoE effects, but @Hjarki does still have a valid point about efficiency. You are incorporating more than just what Radiation can do on its own in your purview of the set though, and when isolated to just Rad versus Dark, there's certain aspects about the sets themselves that change the dynamic. I'm not going to say one is better than the other for any specific reason, but there are things each can do that are unique compared to the other and can potentially have a significant impact on how they play out. Keep an open mind about the cross comparison. Procs can change the game.

Status Resistances doesn't really mean anything of value in this game. It just determines the duration of a mez effect, not its ability to avoid it. Even if you have 100% resistance, you'll still suffer the mez for a period of time. Status Protection, on the other hand, is what allows you to avoid getting hit with something, which is where Clarion would come into play. T4 Clarion Core will give sufficient protection to everything for its entire duration. If you're referring to Damage Resistances, that is different, and you have to be careful about clarifying between the two. In the realm of my build, because it hits 45%+ on all defenses, it doesn't really need to worry as much about its resistances as those are only padding the few hits that do manage to break through. If I'm running Darkest Night, that's also adding a stack of -Damage, lessening the threat even further. I dug through your post history to see if I could maybe find a build that you're referring to. The one I did come across is effectively more open to a lot more incoming damage because it only hits soft cap on a few defensive areas versus everything all at once. There's a pretty dramatic difference in how yours will play versus mine. I highly encourage you to give up the Ice Mastery in favor of Primal so you can take advantage of Power Boost. It didn't look like you had very much invested in it otherwise. Unless it's a thematic issue, Primal is the better Epic to go with just for PB.

If you're referring to the one that got linked above (Dark/Dark/Primal), make sure you're toggling on Fade to get a better grasp of the Resistance stats as S/L hit 64%, which are the two key types. As for Defense, that build actually hits 45% Softcap, so... no? All of the Proc builds I worked on are centered around full self-sustainability. With Fade, when Power Boost is activated first, it pushes Fade's effective defense value higher, and since it is a click-based effect, that boosted level stays the entire duration of the power until it has to be reapplied. So it's actually a base line of 21.6% to everything plus 25.87% from Fade (47% total). When you have softcap to everything, you end up suffering far fewer mez issues, but Clarion gives the opportunity to not have any mez problems at all at Incarnate levels.

You are 100% correct on all accounts! I went and grabbed the link to that thread for any interested parties.

I'm not disregarding that there can, and probably are, key powers or elements that can be sought and built around to find some "optimal specific build that's better than everything else" (not quoting, just emphasizing a general concept). This process I've gone through up to this point has been about finding the areas and sets that have the most significant use for procs within their set, where the most bang can occur, and how to maximize that bang. Some sets just naturally don't benefit from bending procs, like with many of the Blast sets, as they don't get a wide array of options. Many of the melee attack sets do get a ton of options though, so we have a lot more to weed through. We could easily discount "well this doesn't get that, and that doesn't get this, so don't bother with here, here, and here," but your 'proof-of-concept' kind of showed how you just went straight for a specific targetted proc, and skipped anything else. Yeah, sure, packing in an extra -Res proc is going to make any build better, but is that option significantly outweighing the ability to maximize the powers that didn't get taken? "If you don't have a -Res proc in there, you gotta get that Epic!" That's too generalized, too cookie cutter, it doesn't show how a set can be improved if it just chases "that max DPS!" I mean, yeah, I want to show how we can improve that aspect, but also to contrast what things can be done without specifically jamming a power into the build to trigger one event. Take Char as an example. I've looked at trying to toss that in a few times now in the builds I've been working out and theory crafting/prepping. I acknowledge that it can do some good in quite a few places, but its extra long recharge has me kind of going "Eh, this may not really be as significantly worthwhile at that recharge level for some people." Not saying someone shouldn't look at taking it, but some sets have a generally solid curve as lower recharge rates, and Char ends up being a "once in 10-12/s" kind of power. At least with Defenders I had the ability to see that more in the 5-7/s range it became a lot more reliable both as a hold, and an attack. The rest of Fire/Psionic for Defenders is also generally pretty useful, so the epic as a whole isn't really wasted. In many cases with Tankers, some of those options may not add a ton of value, or (as I'm experiencing in trying to find best slot choices), just not have enough slots to stretch them to significant value in conjunction with other abilities. Heck, I thought Plant Control had slot issues. I'm feeling like a slot-starved Kheldian at this point. If I look back at Stone Melee again, there's several powers that can fit a FF+Rech proc into them. Even if it isn't a guaranteed proc every time, cycling those events means there's a lot of opportunity to roll the dice and take advantage of that fact some how. I noticed this impact in just three powers in the Controller Epic. Hurl, Fissure, and Seismic Smash. I was getting FF+Rech procs bounced all over the place just by picking up a chunk of dirt and lobbing it through the air. Just imagine if we could build an attack chain that could take one of those in all its attacks and just speed-chain through things? That's the weirdness I want to find! I want to test that! The thing that's kind of killing me is not having been able to do the full testing on what I rolled as my first test-subject to really show what I'm talking about, but until I can do the "full round" I don't want to let the cat out of the bag as it's been an interesting, and surprisingly fun, twist. I've been able to do (at least) fundamental survival and +4 mob testing as a standard 50 and come back with rate I honestly didn't expect. I think there's going to be more interactions within a set that get missed on too much generalization that'll surprise some people. And like I mentioned before somewhere ...here or...somewhere, I've already fumbled across procs so dramatically changing one power over another that I'll be hitting things for 500-600 damage from a power that has no right to.

Something to point out between these: Fire is traditionally (one of) the heaviest damage-focused set(s) out of the Controller options, but Dark has the ability to toss in Haunts, as well as the mixture of all the Proc options, it does a fair amount of insane damage on top of all the controls it can wield. I've done some stupid stuff with Fire Control, but the stupidest thing I've ever done was on Dark, hands down. Joined a team, they were moving fairly quick and already started a map before I was on board. Jumped into the mission and bolted straight for the team. It appeared the lead was heading things on alphas, so I stayed focused on keeping right behind them before realizing that five others split in a different direction (unintentionally). The missions were Council, the settings were +4, the room was one of those lab-maps with the server-type-units inside little cubicle-esque enclosures (four total separated by a thick wall with ramps around it). The first half had three full-sized spawns mixing puppies, vamps, and galaxies. The lead fell almost instantly upon entering, planted right in the middle, then a second team mate who'd been with us fell shortly after. All I knew is people died, and I was like "Uh, sure?" The mobs turned on me and my Umbral, 16 a piece aggro cap to share in a room of 32+. Thankfully they got mostly packed into the center in the rush, so I jumped back, popped the fear cone, and sent out a Font into the masses "ooh look, shiny!" they all said, and deviated for a brief moment until they all got gobsmacked into terror-zone. Not enough though, so I hop back in and drop a Stun, some proc damage rolls off, I've got nearly the entire lot under some kind of control. I hop back and drop the cone immobilize to hold them in place while I hit the bosses up with Possess. One, two, now I have a couple of Vamps doing my dirty work. Meanwhile the Umbral is gleefully dropping their own fears and bites across the room, running amok with his toggled-on -Res and a pack of Haunts closely behind. I was Dark/Sonic, by the way. I kept bouncing back and forth repeating fear, stun, immob, possess, possess, watching the room slowly dwindle down from a mass of fur to just a couple of meandering bosses. Down to the last few and the rest of the team finally comes over and is like "what happened?!" The team lead, lying on the floor still: "I'm rolling a Dark Controller next, that's what happened."

Sure the purple procs have the higher PPM and damage scale, but if the only focus on any build is "go grab the epics for that ranged/hold" then it kind of defeats the point of looking at the set as a whole if you're just going to ignore everything. That build you posted flat out bypassed as much of Stone Melee as it could on its path to grab a ranged attack, totally skipping the fact that Hurl Boulder was in there. Longer animation or not, the whole point in the process is to explore how procs might change or impact those powers in better ways. I've already run into a couple of powers where Procs end up transforming a lower tier ability in a significant way that overshadow others. Not saying one couldn't go down that path, but I'm not going to invalidate the entirety of a set, especially not on all of them, just to fit that mold. With Defenders grabbing Dominate or Char was an easy, casual option that was just one power to help frame out the rest of the attack chain for a handful of options because it was harder to find strong hitting ST attacks. Tankers will have a lot wider option of abilities and procs at their disposal that we need to evaluate. I agree that this will be an interesting set to evaluate. I'm currently working through the primary sets to find ones that have the best balance and optimal recharge I can pack in. If that set works with Titan Weapons, I'll have my go-to to figure out. Given that we already have a foundation for most of these sets for reliable attack-chain options, I plan on looking there for what "should be best" and reflecting how procs change that path. There are going to be oddities like with Holds and other random powers that spike attack options in unique ways. I'll have to keep an eye out for testing this and seeing places it might be able to fit in. Any -Res that can get stacked in reasonably will be worth considering for sure.

What is a Proc Monster? A build type bent on maximizing proc opportunities within a singular AT through specific sets that have the most potential for proc chances. Typically this would narrow down to sets that can bend at least 2, up to 5, procs in a singular power to exceed the normal limitations of that power, and do this with multiple powers within a given set. Each AT has a handful of sets that provide the most opportunities to do this, and through this path will carry those sets to a new level of performance outside their original design. We do this by maximizing global recharge, and minimize enhanced recharge by as much as possible. The proc formula was studied by Bopper and he has the formulas posted here. So Tankers now, Eh? In the journey so far, I have visited the realms of Defenders and Controllers, studying both Primary and Secondary power sets and extrapolating from them unique opportunities for proc-maximization within the individual ATs. As a result Support Sets, Control Sets, and Blast Sets, along with Epics for Controllers and Defenders, have been analyzed and reviewed accordingly. The impact of that study uniquely plays in part to Corruptors--being the mirror reverse of Defenders--blast sets for Blasters/Sentinels, and Control sets for Dominators. The further down this pipe-line I go, the more each individualized study starts to overlap with other sets. It was requested by several that the next avenue I approach be Tankers in an attempt to find, and breathe, new life into the AT with this monstrous approach. Tankers are to the Melee as Defenders are to Support: the biggest bang-for-buck investment in their focus area. For Tankers, that is Defensive Sets. Just as I did with Defenders, I'll go through the primary choices and look for sets that can optimize a Proc build in the most effective way possible, even potentially look for proc-capability within that primary to continue building upon the ability of a Tanker Proc Monster. To do this, there are a few key areas that have to be focused on: The ability to maximize a defensive solution. Can I find a path to cap Resistances or Soft Cap Defenses (or both) within the build, exclusively within the primary itself without relying (or minimizing reliance) on the secondary. Develop a reasonable curve of Global Recharge. Some secondary sets wont need a huge amount of viable global recharge, but in most cases there's a bottom line that has to be achieved to make a valid and justifiable attack chain. The most proc opportunities, the better. Be as self-sustaining as possible without reliance on an Alpha slot or Ageless to modify recharge values within a set. In some cases Ageless becomes a necessity just to manage endurance, which may be unavoidable, but I prefer to look for every build avenue that provides the most flexibility to player choices when choosing those "end game" abilities. If a Proc Monster build can be made viable without forcing the use of Ageless, Agility, or Spiritual, then all the better; especially considering Agility and Spiritual both negatively impact proc probability. Be viable in difficult content. This is a bit of a "new rule" for this process as I was previously doing it as a standard practice, but also realized that some folks weren't looking at difficulty as part of the capacity, which could change viability of a build depending on how it gets slotted. My process here has, and will be, viability against +4 content. Alpha slotting changes this to altering 90% of the game to a max potential of +3 until a player gets into Incarnate shifted content, but then they also get impacted by another level shift with additional abilities slotted. This difference causes a value shift of "can it play +4 without Incarnates" and "how does it perform with Incarnates." My biggest thing is validity of the build in the leveling process, and how capping it off with Incarnate content gives it the next push. I want these builds to be playable all the way through. Given very little PvP or Catalyzed enhancements tend to get used, this makes it very possible to achieve. In that process of how these builds get created, I will be looking at areas for Proc Opportunities that may be unique, untested, or "game breaking" in their effect. I will test for consistency of effect, as well as general viability of a build. Any oddities or interesting effects I report back, and we move on to the next test. Now, Tankers--and Melee sets in general--are typically a lot more straight forward about their abilities with Procs, there's a lot less "do we know how this works?" type of questions. The biggest thing here is going to be looking for how much, and in what means possible, can we improve damage performance, and/or general performance of Tanks to make them a more viable damage-dealing machine. Tankers will have the easiest path of success, and likely the largest benefit of building a Proc-centered build. They'll be less reliant on additional support powers like Maneuvers, Combat Jumping, etc, to fill in gaps, which is important. We're going to need every power pick we can get, and every slot we can spare. The average Proc Monster build for Tankers is going to need 30 slots just for attacks alone, which doesn't leave us with a lot of wiggle room on everything else. The Shakedown Lets take a look at the primary choices we have, and see where there's opportunity to maximize potential. We'll effectively have a Naughty or Nice list. Bio Armor Not gonna lie, this was one of the first sets I thought of. It has a lot of survival tools at its disposal, and Offensive Adaptation helps boost damage potential even further. The big hat-trick is going to be whether this set can be built to max potential without relying on crazy slotting or set bonuses. Dark Armor I know from detailed experience that Dark Armor can be made into a ridiculous power-house set, but a lot of that exaggerated performance comes from stacking a ton of set bonuses in weird places. This might not lend itself well to the utility of Procs. The set does, however, have four abilities within its grasp that have proc potential, and could be worth the exploration even if not full maximized. Electric Armor Just like Dark Armor, not a lot of defensive aspects here so very reliant on building up those Resistances, but EA has Lightning Reflexes which is a key power to helping build that global recharge. This set also has Energize, which if kept perma would help massively balance endurance usage across the set, along with Power Sink. If we can play to the strengths, there's a lot of useful tools here. Fiery Aura The classic farmer set. Consume, Burn, lot of proc tools, endurance boosting, damage, damage, damage. We'll see what we can do in maximizing Resistance sets. Ice Armor All it takes is faith, trust, and a little bit of icicle dust. Ice Armor is admittedly one of my favorite sets and I am fully knowledge that this set can reach soft cap defenses on SO's, let alone what IO's can bring to the table. This is an easy contender for making beastly Proc Monsters. Invulnerability A mixed bag of res and def based tools, but one of those tools is built-in +ToHit, which is super important in trying to supplement accuracy for these builds. Radiation Armor Not a fan of enemy dependent self-buffs, but this set does have a potentially big +Rech aspect with Beta Decay, and quite a few areas where procs can be dropped within the primary to have even further built-in booms. Plus a sprinkle of recovery options too, could be good. I've found that a lot of the "newer" sets that were designed in the late years of the game seem to be a lot more fluid with how they correspond with proc mechanics compared to earlier sets. This could be an interesting bit of research. Regeneration This set really sings with global recharge through the roof, but it tends to rely heavily on the attack set paired with it to get there. Also needs a lot more TLC to build those extra defense values that may make this too difficult to validate for Proc Monster use. Shield Defense A mixed bag of def and res, a worthwhile short-term T9 in a pinch, plus damage boosting? And an AoE?! There's some love coming out proc way with this set. Stone Armor One of the best abilities in the game: Granite. It comes with a -65% Recharge, that's a hard pass. Sorry Stone Armor, you're just flat-out not cut for this kind of work. Super Reflexes Super easy to hit soft cap. Super easy to build recharge with Quickness giving us a +20% push. Access to the full array of LotG +7.5%. This thing practically writes its own love letters to Proc Monsters. Willpower What we hoped for in Regen, maybe we can find here. Breaking this list down into some core features: Ability to max performance, positive increases in needed stats, proc potential, I have a core initial list I expect to be more on the front-lines of "best choice." Super Reflexes Ice Armor Shield Defense Radiation Armor Bio Armor That CVS Receipt of Secondaries There's a ton of options in attack sets for Melee players. 22 sets in total. Unlike Controllers and Defenders, that's a lot of data points to look at. Also much unlike Controllers and Defenders, most of those set operate pretty much the same way. A handful of core ST attacks, 1, maybe 2 AoE/Cone of some time, possibly a support/mez tool of some variant, and that's it. Given this fact, trying to scope through these will be a lot easier, especially considering Melee attacks, in particular ST ones, already have a huge bucket of procs they can take; being a Tank that adds another in the Taunt set, so we have more proc possibilities than we have slots. Told you we'd need 30 to get this thing done. Given there's so. many. choices. available, I have to look more closely as the individual attacks within those sets and look for unique attributes that may not have common application, or to look at powers that typically are considered worthless/undervalued, and see what differences Procs may bring to the table. It's like Ice Arrow from the Trick Arrow support set, a non-damaging ability when slotted up with all the Hold procs suddenly does more damage per activation than a T1, T2, or T3 blast attack. That's nuts! I will also be looking more closely at known under performers, and seeing what Procs do to change the state of play on those sets. With how long a list of powers and sets that all is, I wont be breaking those down individually, but looking for those options and finding the unique cases and bringing those back here. And when I say "unique" I'm looking at things like the recently discovered possibility of Radiation Melee's Contaminated effect spreading proc chances on the subsequent chained targets. Or making sure that Chain Induction works for Melee as Jolting Chain did for Controllers. Footnote: With test being altered for the shift of a live-patch, certain items and abilities (Incarnates) are turned off. Since I'm reliant on doing the bulk of these tests on the Beta server, until these features get turned on, actual full-physical testing will be delayed. I will be working on builds to test in the mean time, of course, but actual posted feedback will be delayed. I will also say that this run with Proc Monsters will be a lot more about showing how to build them, more than finding oddities in the ranks. Overall time span I spend on this run will be more dependant on building and reviewing potential, than really experimenting with every single set as that'd take a far more considerable length of time than anyone might be interested in sitting through. Controllers was broken down into four core tests with about eight core builds, and a slew of variant builds and still took about two weeks to roll through. If I did even half of the attack sets in variant builds, that'd be 3-4 weeks minimum, and probably a lot of redundancy in testing. So I'm looking for key experiences here. Throw Your Hat Into The Ring If you're a player with some extra time on your hands and want to run some trials with a Proc Monster build on the test server, give me a shout. I'd be happy to toss out a build here and there for folks to test drive and send back the logs. All I need is damage/combat logs to monitor procs, a few timed tests against a Pylon in the RWZ, and survival testing against 54's (typically Rikti since there's bunches of them in the RWZ anyway). I try and do this all myself, but if we really want to explore all 22 sets, I'll need the extra help. Also, if you feel you've encountered a mechanic that seems off or weird, let me know on that too. Again, this boils down to there being so many secondaries to work with, even though I have experience with 80% of them, we're talking about bending and breaking Procs in new ways, so there might be something out there that wouldn't have been casually noticed or considered (ie: Rad Melee and Containment).

Maybe I'm missing something here. Repulsion has a 15' radius, base 30/s cooldown, and... animation of 3... 3.07/s. Probability to Proc = PPM * (MRT+ CastTime) / (60 * AreaMod) Sphere (PBAoE or Target AoE): AF = 1 + 0.15 * Radius AreaMod = 0.25 + 0.75 * AF AF = 3.25 Area Mod = 2.6875 If I do in-game with a 3.5 PPM with no recharge enhancement: 3.5*(30+3.07)/(60*2.6875) 115.745/161.25 = 71.8% If I add just 66% recharge to bring the power into a reasonable realm: 3.5*(21.14)/161.25 = 45.9% Using the modified 16/s window with not recharge (since there wouldn't need to be): 41.4% Every percentage of recharge added to make Repulsion Bomb more reasonable (in its current state in-game) is ticking down on its probability. If I move it to 85% recharge, it drops to 41.8%. It's one thing to try and play a power towards procs, but the game isn't designed to be built around them, and excluding procs, Repulsion is a terrible power in its current state, and isn't a worth while power at a 30/s (or greater) recharge. Bringing it in line leave it right where it should be, with the same probability it would've had based on recharge enhancement.

16/s base would still give it a high probability rate so long as no recharge enhancements are placed in the power and it relies on global for reduction instead. As it stands currently, in order to make the power viable/worth taking, it has to have some enhancement. The change I proposed would actually benefit the power as it stands rather than detract from it.

Yes. No. It's important to understand the distinction between a "Healer" and a "Defender." A healer takes three powers, puts one of them on auto, and rides coat tails. A Defender provides support/buffs, occasionally produces some green values, potentially drops debuffs, and then fires off blasts to fill their time. See all the other replies in this thread are talking about Fortitude, Adrenalin Boost, Recovery Aura, Regen Aura. Not one person said "yeah, Heal Other is the best power in the game!" Be a Defender.

Other than a mention of the secondary, I didn't do any Controller related testing on Trick Arrow, nor put together any builds related to TA for Controllers. The mention of the set is still within the original post, and I didn't remove anything, only added at the end. Was there something else you were looking for there?

Main post has been updated to reflect the conclusion of primary testing for Controllers. Updated builds (plus a few unseen) have been rolled into the update as well. Linked to specific testing posts (didn't do that last time, feel like that made it harder for latecomers to dig out information). Onward to Tankers! There are a couple of avenues you can take, I put together a general "Here's all your basic options" build with the procs dropped in and basically nothing else. Something to keep an eye on with this kind of build, a few of those powers are probably not a wise choice (Choking Cloud and Glacier). Generally speaking toggles and onesie-twosie procs aren't a safe investment compared to 3+, so not sure you'll find a long-term success adding your proc options to a power like Radiation Infection given how often it's likely to pop in and out as things die. Choking Cloud is definitely a "mileage varies" as it doesn't have inherent damage, and that chance to proc will only happen on things every 10/s so long as they're in the field when it checks. Given that Arctic Air can be slotted similar, might be worth tandem, but you're talking about burning a metric ton of endurance. Accelerated Metabolism isn't going to make that much easier either. Maybe if you stacked Support Hybrid for the endurance reduction globally, but still. Made me think of this scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. "I'm not dead yet!" "He says he's not dead." "He will be shortly. Can you come back around again?"

Caltrops isn't in that category as it actually does function, and I have gotten it to trigger both damage procs and the -Res proc within a reasonable amount that it's worth slotting them into the power. Something that is off about the scenario you're describing is the difference between activation and follow-through after the fact on the Rain effects, they're not only incredibly limited in their probability, there's an ulterior denial going on that I've mentioned and Bopper is going to follow up on more closely with some of their other tests. I've never seen a damage proc go off for a Rain effect, but I have seen a -Res effect trigger three separate times over what amounts to 30+ minutes of testing between multiple abilities, and every single time the effect came up, it was immediately shutdown (removed) within the second it hit. This makes me feel like there's more going on there than just simply a heavily skewed probability formula. If I had a lot more time on my hands and the open code in front of me, I could probably find it and be more specific to the effect, but that's not a really a headache I personally want to endeavor in. It doesn't look like they do, I went to double check for myself. The Proc itself will show up on the target nearly instantly, but the game doesn't report damage until after the animation time, so it's calculating everything the moment it occurs, and then posting the display of that information after the fact. I took a sample: Every additional attack after is consistently the same as that later block of damage where the Poisonous Ray's -Res and the Achilles -Res are active on the Pylon, but not active (upon first firing) in the former block. I've also tried rearranging the order of procs in the power itself and that doesn't have any practical impact either, everything always seems to post the same. Status on You, status on the Target, then Damage.

Follow Up Report To touch back on Plant Control and the testing there, I sat down with the builds I had initialized and looked for some more/better paths of optimization that stayed true to their best functionality. Plant Control got a bit tricky to really pack in everything and run the most value for what it could do. I really wanted Vines to make a relevant appearance in one of the builds, but there is almost always a better option (by comparison) when it comes to some form of control. The ability to drop a few hold +dam procs into it gives it a good kick, but that power is still on a heck of a leash. For what it can do, far too often the Epic provided something that could recharge faster, and carry soft control. Plant was also the first primary I ran into where trying to pair it fairly with a secondary was a bit of a struggle. For Accuracy, I build and plan around the idea of facing against +4 content, but sometimes it has to be realized that once a character gets to their Alpha, most of the game is going to be hard-locked at +3 to them going forward. Incarnate content still has the potential of marginalizing above, but that's often going to come with a team where almost always one person has some kind of +Acc/ToHit balancing ability. So when I looked at trying to get Accuracy to balance +4, I knew I had to settle with the idea that +3 was more the reality of things. I even went out and did general survivability testing with Plant/Dark to try out Carrion Creepers against spawns that'd survive a bit longer under their effects. Going around at ~90% (to +4), even when I swung at the 54's in the RWZ I wasn't struggling by any stretch. I looked at Recharge correction once I'd settled Accuracy was probably sufficient, and Agility even comes with some endurance modification potential, but it was mostly only shaving 1-2 relevant seconds off a couple of powers. Of course it made a lot of low-recharge stuff get a hairline fracture faster, but that's the lowest part of the concern-totem. I decided the best way to test performance was to slot Agility and Intuition Alpha's to see which one came out the cleanest at the end of it. As we have in evidence with the Plant/Dark video, Agility wasn't too shabby and I walked away from a Pylon run with a pretty respectable number, especially for a Controller. Without changing anything but the Alpha, I went back again and saw a pretty quick decline by 20-30/s depending on how the run went. I recorded a couple, but didn't see the point in stamping out a new video that was marginally different than the last one just because it was a hair faster. The simplest thing was that, even with the sacrifice of rolling against marginal recharge losses, Intuition still did more in curving build damage. For Plant/Dark/Leviathan, it's also really important to talk about the fact that the build was sporting several of its own pets, each of which is impacted by the Alpha choice as well. I think Alpha choice for the Controller builds that are tighter, will be entirely a dealer's-choice kind of thing. The builds got very rocky when trying to cram things into them. The way I'm looking at it, however, is more in perspective of the way with Defenders: maximizing the efficiency of the build. In the case of Plant, throwing Ageless at it to fix recharge shortages, and Intuition to round out its damage ended up being a consistent choice. Dark Control I didn't go full-blown bonus testing with Dark Control because I already had one live, and experienced procs with it. The biggest thing I can say is that the set has a lot of options, and I've not run into any one thing that didn't work exactly as it might be intended. That set doesn't seem to have any notable flaws, and definitely shows that it was designed in a way that more compliments Proc options than struggles to figure them out. I'll have a couple of builds (Dark/Time and Dark/Dark) I'll post as well. General Topic Update That ultimately puts me at the end of the road trip for Controllers. With all the primary testing put out of the way, I'll update the main thread topic with a more coherent notification of what was covered, and a primary list of builds to add into the main post. If there were any questions that didn't get answered on something particular, let me know. I've been under the weather for the last few days so trying to keep a focused thought pattern on closing out Controller testing has been a struggle. Foul virus going around in the community and it has taken a toll on me. I feel like I might not have been as comprehensive as I thought I should be so... 24 hours, I'll have the primary thread/topic post updated

When I did TA for Defenders, it really comes down to the build just being a massive slot hog that didn't leave much room for "toy" effects. Entangling works fine with the two procs it gets normally. For Controllers they're definitely stuck with it, so utilizing it as a containment setup is a worthwhile consideration, and dropping at least the two damage procs helps make it a bit more worth the effort. Kind of a situational thing though, Entangling is just kind of a "blah" utility power both in context of a full TA/A Defender, or as a */TA Controller. Glue Arrow drops just like many of the other powers in its wheel house do (like Quicksand), where the feedback is incredibly limited (as in non-existent). So no value there. It'll take the Cloud Sense proc for sure, but I personally feel that defeats the primary utility of the power (unresistable -ToHit, of course, but also the fact that it gives you -Perception/Visibility which is kind useful, more so than Entangling or Glue Arrow at least). The field it creates gives a standard 10/s timer on Procs once it drops. So initial hit, than followup hits at the 10/s interval marks. Unlike some other AoE based powers with procs, however, the singular effects of things like Fortunata and Call of the Sandman don't seem to trigger off anything other than the primary target, and only at the initial cast. Given the recycle time is kind of higher, it was pretty consistent to proc it, but the placate is wasted on immediate aggro-effect of the PGA, overrides the chance to sleep, and angers the mob instantly. The heal effect is also terribly low. Be great if it could give that opportunity to cast off more than the primary, but doesn't appear to. Unfortunately non of those powers (Entangling, PGA, Glue) really have any value impact in a Proc-focused build, (or really any build IMO). If I blazed over those (in full, or too briefly) in the Defender thread, I apologize.

Test #4 Part B, Plant Control w/ Epics Leviathan & Mace So a couple days back I posted up a teaser video of Plant/Dark/Leviathan with a couple of highlight points about things I'd be talking about with the following write up: You may notice a declaration of something unseen in any of the prior tested Proc Monster builds in this video. Uncovered discrepancies between Mids and In-Game information. An interesting function in Carrion Creepers I wasn't aware of. The sacrifice needed to make Plant Control sing as a Proc Monster I'm going to touch on all these throughout here, just refreshing that list for reference within. So lets talk about Plant Control. There is definitely a lot going on with this set, and a lot of choices have to be made about the progression of this set for a player. There are seven powers in the set that can take damage procs, an eighth technical power can take some sleep stuff (haven't generally counted those powers for much of anything as they're pretty straight forward and rather limited). We otherwise have our standard trio of ST Immob, ST Hold, T-AoE Immob, then Seeds, Vines, Creepers, and the Fly Trap. At least four of these powers need six slots to pack procs, one that can do 4-6 to be effective, and then whatever gamble a player makes on the others (but likely still 6 on Strangler). So that's 36 slots devoted to six attacks, with pure proc-planning, that's a lot! Strangler Pretty standard hold slotting at this point with four hold damage procs, one gladiator damage proc, and use the last slot to boost Acc/Dam Roots I haven't dove to excessively into some of these powers because they do sort of speak for themselves, but I'll touch on at least one T-AoE a bit more with this set. There's two basic +Dam Procs slottable, the Posi and the Trap of the Hunter (TotH) with the rest being status impacts (KD, Disorient, Hold Chance, etc). If we try and focus on maximized damage, and also look at the whole build, Roots is probably one of the best places to drop a 5-piece of the Positron's Blast to pick up the proc, and the 6.25% Recharge, and cap it off with a TotH proc. Get both damage options and some global reach that'll get to be kind of tight to achieve. Seeds of Confusion Powers like this that pop AoE Confusion have two directions they can go. Either take the purple set and focus on Contagious Confusion to amplify the confuse mag chance, or go the damage route and pack in the damage procs. The AT-O also has a damage proc, so there's quite a bit of potential flexibility with this power. Malaise's Illusions and the AT-O both give a good chunk of global rech too. If you're willing to drop the AT-O set in Seeds, that's 10%, and the potential for two damage procs. Otherwise, Seeds with just the Contagious (purple set including proc), focus on just mag boosting and still get 10%. Otherwise set worked just as expected in both regards when tested. Vines Another standard slot-it-with-hold-procs power that can be reduced to a bit over a minute in recharge and make it pretty viable for occasional nuking. Worked pretty much just as expected compared to other similar powers. Fly Trap This lovely little critter has something available to it that not many recharge-focused pets have: Access to Achilles Heel! I tested both the Heel and the +Dam proc in the trap. Spiked Achilles quite a bit, but I'm not sure that the damage proc ended up being worth the offset compared to using the Soulbound +BU proc overall between the impact of -Res in itself, and what -Res being suffered around it. It was kind of nice to see it going off and adding another layer of insanity into the mix. Carrion Creepers I saved this power for last in the Primary list because it's the one power that has a lot of attention right now. This thing can get loaded with a TON of procs, making it the most hungry of the collection that an individual player is going to have to work through to determine best option. I tried to collect game data on activations to do a better analysis of what, when, and how often each procs were likely going off, and share it here for analysis, but I couldn't seem to get Test to convert the chat filed into a .txt after logging/close down the game. Carrion Creepers create a massive spike in the logs and trying to sift through it in-game was a nuissance. I'm going to have to go back over it more fine-tooth later (and also figure out why chat-logging suddenly stopped on Test). For slotting, the biggest thing to me was getting an immediate burst of Recharge in there. This thing has a killer cooldown. Something I realized just now I forgot to check was also the accuracy aspect. The Mids tooltipping has an * next to the Acc percentage which typically indicated something that was PvP specific, or had a PvP altering aspect. I didn't initially slot any accuracy beyond what was naturally in the build in order to run out and try procs on a bunch of low-level junk, but then I also took it against a Pylon, and then even ran into groups of 51 and 54 Rikti to test some survivability and still the Creepers were popping out and attacking just fine and flooding my combat window like a waterfall. 3.) I mentioned before that Creepers do something I hadn't been aware of, which is kind of a neat aspect of the power in the realm of dealing with its rather long recharge. Whether this is tied specifically to the power looking for "dead" enemies or not after its activation, I couldn't say, or if the effect field you initiate secretly travels with the player, and is not dropped on the ground. The thing that happens is that if I drop the Creeper patch, and then move away from it and engage with a new enemy within that 120/s window, the Creepers will spawn on that new mob. So far I've managed to get them to spawn as far apart as one Pylon distance (#16 to #17) without resummoning them. This too will require a bit more investigation. Epics Leviathan and Mace I was pretty please in both cases of these two epics, but there is some potential for slot ratio struggle if really pouring into just about any Epic, especially one that really wants to burn six slots in several abilities. Poisonous Ray Does its own -Res, then can take the -Res Achilles Heel, then three damage procs on top of that. If you can get the recharge to the 8-10 second range, this power would be an easy pick as it'd have a bunch of burst potential with procs, and easy reapplication of the -Res from the Heel. Given that a Controller build is likely lacking in a swarm of ST attacks, this a nice strong swing for one and the procs carry this over the 200 damage mark before -Res effects. I got pretty consistent results with this loaded up. Disruptor Blast This was a quirk power that did a lot better when tossed at a ST than what I'd anticipated. Between being able to take a FF+Rech, and the -Res Annihilation, I feel it was nearly worth using it in a ST chain just for the added effects. But, as expected, got the usual proc effects in an AoE scenario. Between the bonus burst of two +Dam procs, and the FF+Rech, I think that's enough to make the power actually viable. Its really heavy endurance cost was definitely noticed though, which is kind of its biggest set back Tarantuala Another pet that takes an Achilles Heel proc?! No Way! The list is now two! Ah, Ah, Ah! Some interesting side note here. The attack that the Spider uses is Venom Burst to trigger the procs (both -Res and +Dam), which is one that's on the longer side of use. The -Res is beneficial for everything for a decent window, but that proc only going off once periodically kind of sucked. It's a useful place to drop a proc if the slot is available, but I'm not convinced that its enough to warrant keeping it there when there's other places that really need it for more consistent effects Water Spout A lot of people know that this power does some crazy things damage wise, plus it takes two -Res proc which vastly improves just how much it hits for. It can also take a couple of damage procs, but they don't go off often after the initial launch of the power, so they may not really be worth slotting when 1) this power is one that actually needs damage enhancement, and 2) FF+Rech can go into this and helps shrink its recharge so we want a slot for that too. Coralax Little disappointed here. This was a power where I discovered what mids reflected, and what was in game, didn't line up. 2.) The -Def components aren't slottable for this ability, so no proc option, and no -Res Achilles Heel option. So chance to cap the pet at just a 4-piece of expedient unless wanting to grab a couple of +Def uniques that'll spread to any other pets. Starving Proc Monster This set having a few more powers that really need to be in the build, but that also require a good chunk of slots make building Plant Control kind of difficult. Knowing that I was testing Epics with the Primary, I made some power choice compromises like not taking Vines when I kind of wanted to, or getting Tactics into the build to help shore-up some accuracy. What's interesting is when I did a survival test to collect Carrion Creepers data (that didn't save -_-), I never altered accuracy any further, yet was pretty smooth sailing against level 54 Rikti. My inherent accuracy on the crushed test build was light in a few areas for +4, but worked out okay being +1'd. Secondary choice, and Epic choice are going to have a pretty big impact on slot choice variety for Plant. Probably Epic most of all. Something I noticed in doing test runs, in keeping the Epic pet alive alongside my Primary pet, they added a pretty significant contribution to taking things down. In the Pylon testing, I had an early failure where I lost a Tarantula and pushed through, did okay, but not what I'd been getting. I feel like Plant is the most greedy slot set out of the selection. A bit of a, I dunno, hole maybe, in Plant (since it can be easily grabbed in many others powers we've experienced so far), there's no inherent ability to yank FF+Rech triggers. I ended up putting Arcane Bolt into the builds for the +Rech it could provide, and to give the build a reasonable ST attack over using Entangle. The other area where I was looking at "do we need to sacrifice here..." for was what some may have noticed was different in the Pylon video. I dropped in Agility Core of Intuition looking at trying to shave down some frustrating times on a few powers since I was only able to initially pack 140% global into the build and wanted to pull 3-4/s off quite a good amount of abilities still. Frosticus brought up dropping Nerve in for accuracy replacement, but I think that can be worked past still. Agility was a struggle some consideration, but I left it in and went off after a Pylon several times to test it out. Those times I got back were pretty solid. Something that was interesting, however, is that I put Intuition back into the Alpha slot... just to see, just to see, and went and attacked another Pylon. I took it down about 20-30/s faster. Didn't change any of the other slotting, just swapped that one thing out, and still went blindingly quick through that test runs. The thing that has me feeling like I know why is in the regards of all the pets being leveraged; two summon pets, and then Water Spout, still doing a ton of physical damage, and they're all directly impacted by what Intuition can provide (more damage, overcapped). I'll post the video for that additional run in a follow-up post later, but I wanted some of that initial "wow that was quick" before I turned around and topped it without even meaning to. I'm going to post the "test" builds, and then also in the follow-up post a maximized version of Plant taking more consideration into epic choices, and trying to get a better balance in slot placements. Leviathan was very surprising speed twist so I'll likely focus on trying to tune up that build a little maybe and see if I can make it even stronger. Plant/Dark/Leviathan: Plant/Dark/Mace: Plant/Dark/Soul: Remember, those were test builds, not "optimal" builds, there's some inherent flaws in a couple of them that can be ironed out, but they'll run decently.

Dangit, now I have to go look at what a Proc built chain for Fighting Pool looks like...

Arguing like that without bringing anything significant to the table is of no value to anyone, or the discussion towards the topic of this thread, so I'm walking away from that conversation. Looks like it was. Interesting part is that I can still watch it through the embed here, and even on a different machine long after the original was yanked. I will update the original post (or delete and repost it) with a replacement, and a more obscure track this time. Kind of the basic idea of things, but are you looking at a specific build, power, or general question on the process? If the later, see the original topic post, and the Defender version of this thread. The damage part is a fickle aspect (generally speaking) where there's a limit of value to what you're adding, at least for Controllers. After a certain point the damage you add in doesn't outweigh a proc you can put in, so you have to find the best balance of maximizing your overall build potential, finding the best assortment of procs you can stack into a power, and then looking at what you can do with your remaining slot(s). You'll usually need at least one, some times two to fix a short coming in a power, some powers don't carry more than three (or two) procs anyway, so you have more advantage to use slots in different ways, or try and maximize with what extra you have. I have to disagree with @Hjarki on */Dark in the generalist sense. I've used it repeatedly and strongly feel it is one of the four best choices. It doesn't take much effort to get Dark's numbers into the sweet spot, and it doesn't require a significant amount of draw against whatever set gets paired with it (if any). Agility got tossed out there, which is one avenue of approach, obviously Ageless is out there (don't we all know it). There are only, what, three secondaries that actually have inherent recharge tools? Kin, Rad, and Time. Time is also in the top 4. Poison on the other hand I agree doesn't lend well to these kinds of builds at all, it trades a lot of sacrifice in self survival and turns a Controller into more of a Debuff Dominator. Plant/Time should have enough slot flexibility if you go for Primal (Power Boost), get you a couple of drop-hold-aoe's you can proc-out, Creepers, among other stuff I did testing for Traps in the Defender version of this thread and never got the procs to go off in Seeker Drones, ever. When you say "both bombs" though, are you referring to Trip Mines and Time Bomb? Cause I tried to slot both of those in-excess for damage procs and never got one single proc to fire. Well over 140 Trip Mines, <15 Time Bombs. I was able to get self-impacting procs like the FF+Rech when I "cast" Trip Mine, but the mine itself never carried over any proc effects when it went off, neither did the Bomb. Poison Trap, Caltrops, Acid Mortar, those all do great however.

No pets benefit from FF+Rech because they don't benefit from any form of recharge enhancement/boosting, but the proc itself does reflect its triggers in the combat log (technically), but that proc I've never seen cast a notifier after the initial casting where it impacts the player. As for Soulbound, I believe a few have done testing for that that, but Tornado and Lightning Storm drop themselves in unique ways that doesn't favor that proc due to how they're coded. You'd see much more impact in a normal pet with cycled individual attacks compared to the AoE-patch-like nature one like Tornado where it's effectively just a mobile AoE damage aura and procs based on a 10/s wait period.

Latest Update, Plant/Dark/Leviathan Proc Monster Controller This one'll tickle some fancy. Standard Rules of Engagement T4 Incarnates Ageless Core Agility Core Degenerative Core Support Core (passive) 2:50 from engagement to defective. 353 DPS. I had two follow up runs that shared similar times of 3:01, and 2:58.

I'll be making a visit over to the Tanker forums by the end of the week, its been requested I turn to that AT next for my "Proc Monster" experimentation threads. Keep an eye out for it. Once I get done with Controllers in a couple more days, we're going to find out what Tankers can really do.

Strap on your safety belts kids, I just broke a new record. Test #4 Plant Control, Part A I don't like Plant Control, it has too many options! All I'm going to initially do here is drop a video for the funsies, since I'll be testing a couple more variant options. Some highlights that will come in the Part B write up in a couple days: You may notice a declaration of something unseen in any of the prior tested Proc Monster builds in this video. Uncovered discrepancies between Mids and In-Game information. An interesting function in Carrion Creepers I wasn't aware of. The sacrifice needed to make Plant Control sing as a Proc Monster The video was only sped up for the first few second. Once the Pylon is engage, that is real-time.

Lets use Seismic Smash for this example from my Earth/Dark build. 132.4 Damage (w/o Procs, no containment, can't +5 the Superior WTO) 26.5% Acc 59.5% Dam 26.5% End 33.0% Hold Superior BC Acc/Dam/End, and procs from these sets: Hecatomb, Ghost Widows Embrace, Gladiators Strike, Mako's Bite, and Touch of Death Attack, with global bonuses and Tactics has 118% Acc against +4's. That's how I posted slotting, using Intuition Radial in the given build. If I switch to your configuration (assuming Nerve Core): 137.8 Damage (w/o Procs, no containment) 45% Acc 66.25% Dam 33.0% Hold Hecatomb Dam +5'd Changing no other slotting, has 132% Acc against +4's For 5 (10) points of damage, I get 4 points of endurance reduction per activation over your method of slotting. If I forgo the endurance aspect and use the Acc/Dam WTO I can get 137.7 damage. I am now on par with your choice. Technically Seismic Smash has a higher base accuracy, and if I rely on the build as it stands, I could just put a Heca Dam +5'd and get 163.4 and still be at 98% to +4. I am also, with Intuition, gaining a boost to all my -ToHit debuffs in the Dark Miasma set, and a range extension on 90% of my build. With Nerve, the build would only see a marginal 2% Defense gain of minimal value. I would also loose the damage boosting of any pets I utilize by not taking Intuition, and there's already sufficient slotting for Accuracy (and Tactics stacking) to compensate Acc for the Pet(s). If I use Time Manipulation as a secondary for a Controller, I completely invalidate the need for Nerve at all with a considerable boost to ToHit from Farsight. I'd be better served looking at an alternative choice. Since a Time build can achieve 190% Global Recharge, and Softcap Defenses and a massive +ToHit boost, Nerve has no value and Intuition is the optimal choice. I could consider Agility to help fix the marginal error of Chrono Shift being 2-3/s off by fault, but a FF+Rech (if available) activating just once in 90/s will fix that gap on its own, so another reason to not need that Alpha either. A dead Controller can't proc, and there aren't that many mez protections, and both require a significant commitment to achieve, and neither one of them are capable of being Perma. Clarion is out-of-the-box best choice for mez protection, period. Not saying it has to be taken, but there are definite cases were Ageless has no intrinsic value any longer, as I already stated before, I'm not going to repeat that math again. I've already demonstrated how you're incorrect in that regard, and in fact have the capacity to over-shoot your ability to stack damage into a power while maintaining appropriate accuracy levels without engaging Nerve. You must also take into account that Intuition Radial has a Defense Debuff modifier, and for appropriate sets, this too will help skew accuracy concerns in my favor for abilities that are enhanced by this. You have to play to the benefits of each combination, that's just a flat given. I feel like you really missed a lot of the ground work laid out in the Defender version of this thread. I'm going to be blunt on this one: You're just not listening to what I'm telling you. I've been, from the beginning, looking for maximum potential. There are a lot of powers that do not have more than 2, 3, sometimes 4 procs available to them. The abilities that can actually get more than that actually ended up spiking into the 5-8 realm, but they're rare comparatively. You are trying to argue against a very niche subsection of powers and trying to redistribute an entire concept change based off those few, very limited abilities. I even outlined that fact at the beginning of this thread that some sets have more potential than others, and my focus has been primarily on those to find how to best utilize them, study what they can do, and return that relevant value back as knowledge to the community. I'm all for others trying to explore different avenues and approaches and see what they come up with, but you cannot blanket-statement your choices and claim them to be the only one. You have no testing, no builds, no proof of any of this approach. I have the testing, the proof, and the builds to go off of. If you want to continue counter arguing, then show us.