Ultimo

I do think Rage should be adjusted, because the set it altogether TOO reliant on it... but that really wasn't the point of the thread. I was more interested in giving Super Strength a couple of AOEs, a bit earlier in the set. Putting an AOE on Hurl, and moving to an earlier point in the progression would accomodate that, I think. I'll post what I like. If you don't like what I post, you're welcome to not read it.

You know, I've always said that Gauntlet is of EXTREMELY limited use when solo. Most other classes get some significant benefit from their inherent, but not Tankers. Perhaps something can be done with Gauntlet to accomodate the issues?

Thank you, we don't have pennies in Canada anymore. Though, I suppose the US doesn't have pennies either, they have cents. The US never used the British pence.

I always find it interesting that people offer "all due respect" before making comments with very little respect. I don't imagine you meant it that way, but that's the way it reads. I have played the game for a long time, so I do have some sense of the power sets. I never said Super Strength was underpowered, I said I thought it was kind of middle of the pack, and deserves a little buff. Adding a bit of AOE to a set with almost none strikes me as a relatively minor buff. It's not going to greatly increase damage, it's just going to add a bit of utility. But, as I say, I don't really anticipate any changes will happen. I'm just putting the idea out there. If by some miracle they decided to make a change to knockback, or to Hurl, or what have you, I'd be as surprised as anyone.

I'm not trying to restart that particular argument, considering how antagonistic it was at times. I only reported what happened. Same thing with my example in this thread. The Shield/Broadsword guy WAS forever out of endurance. If you're going to tell me the Clockwork guys weren't contributing to that problem, then it must be a problem with the endurance system in general.

There's an interesting thing, and I know we're drifting off topic here, but is it an appeal to the bandwagon? I mean, if there's a lot of people playing it, doesn't that suggest there is some quality in it? I mean, if it was a bad game, wouldn't there be fewer players? Certainly the retention of so many subscribers suggests the addictiveness?

Ya, that's the one, I believe.

The first build you showed is similar, but there are some differences. All the attacks have 4 slots, 1 endurance reduction, 1 accuracy and 2 damage. I have been considering whether Weave is worthwhile to take, but I hadn't quite decided yet. Parry helps, but it's just for Melee Defense, and Weave helps with everything. As a Tanker, I built him around his defenses, trying to boost them as much as possible. Defense took priority over Resistance, as not getting hit helps prevent things like endurance drains, slows and the like. The character is not one I play often, so I haven't invested a lot of inf in him. No IOs, and no sets. I once posted a thread asking if the secondary effects of NPC powers had been increased, things like Clockwork endurance drains, Ice slows and so forth. The usual wagon circlers gathered and told me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong, and that the effects I was seeing were my imagination.

So I did Positron 2 with a group tonight, using a L23 Shield/Broadsword Tanker. He also has the Fighting Toggles. That means his toggles are Deflection, Battle Agility and Against All Odds, and then Tough and Weave. He has three attacks, Hack, Slice and Parry, and Active Defense. Each attack has 1 endurance reduction and accuracy, each toggle has 1 endurance reduction, and Stamina has 2 slots. The least costly attack is Parry, which is 2 endurance. All the other attacks are around 6 endurance each. The toggles also have minimal endurance costs, 0.15/s each. I spent the whole task force gasping for air. Granted, there were lots of clockwork draining endurance, but I've been told in other threads they don't actually drain enough endurance to be noticeable.... My point is, the character was frequently left fighting enemies with BRAWL, because he just had NO endurance to work with. Even when it came time to fight the Circle of Thorns, he was out of endurance after about 2 minion enemies, each one using about half of his total bar to defeat. That's just not much fun, as I've said before. I have all these cool powers, but I couldn't use any of them... and it wasn't much fun. I must have used close to 60 or 70 blue inspirations over the course of the whole thing (mostly against the clockwork), which seems to me to be kind of excessive. As I said before, Tankers really seem to suffer more than some other classes. In any case, I thought about this thread the whole time, so I thought I would share the experience. Take from it what you will.

I have to admit, I'm not a fan of Rage either. However, you're not comparing Foot Stomp to other AOEs, you're comparing Foot Stomp+Rage. Granted, you CAN get Rage up almost permanently, but that's a bit beside the point... in part because Foot Stomp is the LAST power in the set. If I had my way, I'd like to see four things changed. 1) Change knockback, so it does damage relative to the amount of knockback done. Nothing dramatic, just enough to make knockback more desirable. 2) Add an AOE effect to Hurl, and move it down, so players get it earlier. Lifting heavy things is kind of definitive of Strength, and Hurl is the only power that does it. 3) Reduce the reliance on KO Blow and Rage by rebalancing the set so the damage is more evenly distributed through the set. 4) Adjust Rage so it makes the Knockback effect UNRESISTABLE. Even by AVs (but not Giant Monsters). I'd also make the recharge a bit longer, but reduce the crash. There are other things I'd like to see them do, cosmetic things (like flying debris, cracks on the ground and other surfaces, etc.), but those four items are the only real functional ones I'd like to see adjusted. I really don't expect it would ever happen, but I can float the idea and they can consider or ignore it as they please.

That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. I think Super Strength should perform somewhat better than it does, as I've said elsewhere.

With upcoming changes to Tankers, there was some discussion going on about area effects for many of the sets, and it occurred to me that Super Strength has ONE area attack. Foot Stomp. Hand Clap is area effect, but doesn't do any damage. So, I'm making a suggestion, to add an area effect to a couple of other Super Strength powers. First, Hurl. The character rips up a big chunk of ground and throws it at a target, where it shatters and sends debris flying around. I think it would fit the power perfectly to have an area effect at point of impact. Second, Haymaker. I think a cone effect could be added to this. We've seen the Hulk do the double overhand smash and it has that cone shockwave. Third, Hand Clap. Really, I'd rather see them add a bit of damage to ALL knockback, relative to the amount of knockback done, but failing that, a bit of damage could be added to Hand Clap. I mean, every NPC that has it does damage with it. Just some thoughts to buff Super Strength a little. I think it could use it.

Heh. I've never played WoW either, and I still remember PONG. Heck, I remember when I had to play OUTSIDE! Great resolution, the gameplay was a bit dull. I think part of the problem is that there is a distinct inequality, or at least inequity where endurance is concerned. As I said originally, Defenders, Dominators and Tankers seem to suffer issues more than others, while Blasters and Brutes seem to have much less problem. As I said before, I think that endurance costs should be relative to the EFFECT. If a Blaster attack does 10 damage, and the Defender version does 5, then the Defender version should use HALF the endurance.

I have a Brute, Super Strength/Willpower, with both Stamina and Quick Recovery fully slotted, AND one endurance reduction in every power. He STILL runs out of endurance OFTEN. Now, that's not when he's fighting a typical gang of bad guys, 3-5 guys. It's when he's got to fight MORE than that... probably in large part because Super Strength has only one area effect attack, meaning he has to take them all out one at a time. Perhaps Axe is the same? I've not used that set, but I have used War Mace, and I assume they're similar. I'm not saying endurance shouldn't be a consideration, but it shouldn't be the centerpiece of every fight. It's a lot more fun just zapping the bad guys than it is calculating whether or not I can afford to attack more than once a minute.

I think we're kind of arguing around the issue. We're trying to make reference to specific builds and such, when what we're really talking about is a design choice. Some think the design is fine as it is. Some think the design is too disruptive to the gameplay. I don't imagine either side of the discussion is likely to move much, and really, it's not like it matters anyway. After more than 20 years, I rather doubt they would change anything, at least not significantly.

Of course, it did happen in the comics, but in most cases, it was after some kind of herculean effort. A young Cyclops used his Optic Blasts to blow a massive generator through a stone wall, and passed right out from the exertion. It does happen, but not commonly. Then there are the characters who are essentially tireless, like Superman, Thor, even Captain America. Naturally, not everything in the comics can translate into a game, but there remains that question of what is FUN.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying it's impossible to compensate to some extent, I'm just saying that it's not much fun having to struggle to compensate for what some consider to be a bad design.

I'll say this... back on live, I played for years before finally giving up and quitting the game. The reason I quit: Endurance management. I've said it many times, I feel like I spend more time fighting my own powers than fighting the bad guys. I understand that endurance SHOULD be an issue in certain situations, such as when you're facing sappers of one sort or another... but in other situations, you shouldn't be struggling to use your powers. It's especially bad on Defenders, Dominators and Tankers, in my experience. I suspect it has something to do with their attacks doing comparatively less damage for the same endurance cost. If the attacks are going to do less damage, they should use less endurance. In the end, the game is about being a superhero, and it doesn't feel very super when you have to just stand there and wait before you can actually DO anything. It's more fun when we can actually use our powers.

Hrm. I already have so many Invulnerability characters... and I'm not certain I'll WANT to play a Tanker with upcoming changes. Super Reflexes might be more survivable, but it just doesn't fit the character. Hrm.

2 slots, in most cases, but they're only in their 20s.

No longer true!

Damage REDUCTION? I'm already on the brink of abandoning all my Tankers because they're so incapable of doing any damage. If they reduce their damage even MORE, why would anyone play a Tanker?

So... I've been toying with creating a character that used to appear in the comics I made as a kid. Originally created by a friend of mine, the Monstrosity was based on the Juggernaut... basically, phenomenally tough and strong. So, a Tanker. I'd been itching to try out the Psi Armour set, so I created the character (now called Overpower, since Monstrosity is not available) with that. But, I'm not sure what to make of him. He seems pretty squishy, and doesn't seem to have any emergency heals or anything. I also notice there's no minimal FX setting, so he's ALWAYS glowing and flashing. Some of it I could live with, but it would be nice to turn off some of these effects. However, my purpose here is to see what people think of the Psi Armour set. How does it compare to other sets? As an homage to Juggernaut, he should be more durable than anything, does Psi Armour do that for him? If not, what set would, in your opinion?

Yep, short and sweet, you're taking vengeance on him. I might expand it out into a short arc actually.

Ya, that kind of thing.