Naraka
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Posts posted by Naraka
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Did you try taking it on at a lower level of difficulty? Or turn AVs off?
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1 hour ago, Arcadio said:
I really don't think AF needs to be more consistent. It may be annoying to not crit with AS every time, it's ultimately irrelevant. It still gets a large chance to crit from each stack, and it's better to just continue your rotation anyway. And we can get good numbers doing so.
I'm glad someone else is talking sense. It's odd that people assumed AF meant you always crit AS or that you can only fast cast crit AS if you have 3 focus. If that were the case, AF would be an all-or-nothing mechanic like dual blades combos or psi melee insight. Even if AS doesn't crit, people have obviously forgotten where they came from when before you couldn't even use AS without the interruptible animation. I guess it's just terrible if you use a moderate damage 1sec animation with only a 66% chance to crit. Such terrible! Lol
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59 minutes ago, Madae said:
I suppose I do play my Stalker how I think they should play, and maybe I'm just not completely sold on the idea that I should drop/avoid/ignore the one unique aspect of the class that drew me to it in the first place for the sake of being 100% efficient, or simply be like every other AT I can play instead.
But again, if we're talking about what a Stalker can potentially do, cool, but why play a Stalker when you can do that same thing on a better, more well-rounded AT? I would just assume play my Blaster for various reasons I stated in my first few posts of this thread.
And arguably without the ATO's, and a lot of influence to slot yourself, Stalkers do tend to play very cautious, at least up until the point that they have the defensive powers, and correct enhancements, they need to allow them to be more flexible, but they're still rather limited depending on what power set you got suckered in to, which not every new player signing up to play a Stalker will recognize right off the bat.
Ultimately, I feel like I've addressed these types of points already in the thread.
The funny thing is, I completely understand your perspective, probably better than you do.
At the end of the day, players like me that liked stalkers as they were had the AT practically taken away and given a Scrappers version instead. We had to accept that the way stalkers were was inferior to the style of the scrapper because they are *peak*. And it's unreasonable now to take Stalkers as they exist now away to replace it with a more Stalkery version nor would it be feasible to just fudge it into the current AT without either failing to accomplish the goal or making them OP.
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1 hour ago, Lockpick said:
There is a huge difference between providing a dissenting opinion in a civil way and being a dick about it. You were definitely one of the guys being a dick about it. It's your right to act that way, but some people are just going to tune you out. A lot of us have to deal with unsavory people in the real world. I can't imagine many of us want to deal with it in a game, where I would expect that all of us want a good experience to take us a way from reality for a bit. Haijinx has a dissenting opinion, but he is engaging in a civil manner.
On another note, Madae didn't ask for a change because it would be "cool". He made some legitimate points about the way AS and focus works and provided a comparison between blaster and stalker. He also gave his take on what he thought would help. I think for the most part his concerns are legit, but I don't know that they are things I would focus on as I do think the class plays fine. Otherwise I wouldn't have so many level 50 stalkers and I wouldn't keep rolling new ones.
Lol if you're going to tune it out, you're not doing a good job of it by acknowledging it.
I don't think I was being a dick about it. Snarky? Sure, but having to deal with people irl should make you more tolerant, not less, of minuscule comments on a forum.
And you still can't bring yourself to disagree with the OP's stance of Stalkers. It's fine. Apparently you also agree with my initial post but you don't want to admit that either which is also fine but don't go calling people dicks while also being extremely petty as to not just say what you mean. I mean, technically you can, it's just a tad hypocritical.
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11 hours ago, Madae said:
The problem we have here is that rather than come up with a solution, and possibly looking like a fool as people jump all over you like you're jumping all over me for merely suggesting that Stalker could have an interesting change to an interesting ability, you'd rather just avoid it and argue some other asinine point about how things can never change because "reasons". I don't care what the trend is, or what you think it is, I care about what things we can discuss to make this particular part of a Stalker fun again, and if just so happens to lead to a change, we'll all be the better for it... but, nah, let's just argue and call each other names like Omega thinks we should do.
Firstly, you're way too defensive for just sharing an "opinion". You must be treating it with more gravity than a mere opinion.
Secondly, just discarding an opinion when it strongly affects the point of someone's criticism is going to get you throwing yourself off a cliff trying to understand someone. What I mean by that is, in the past, they already tried adding stuff to AS to make it more valuable but guess what? The player base settled on assassin's Focus. You are going to just ignore that the *trend* is how that happened? Asking for even more on top, especially when you're talking about the *trendy* things (Ani speed/rech, damage, AoE/AoE range) is going to get you criticism.
Learn to take criticism.
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13 hours ago, Lockpick said:
Read through the thread and it seems this post has some people up in arms. Not sure why since it is just an opinion. You are articulating my experience with Assassin's Strike especially in teams. I wouldn't mind seeing some fix there.
I don't agree that stalkers are terrible at everything else. On Live I played on Scrappers; here I am playing more Stalkers. I do think Stalkers have gaps compared to Scrappers, but I like the stealth aspect of the AT and they can be built pretty sturdy with the right investments.
I don't agree with some in the thread that Stalkers are OP. I'm not seeing stalkers soloing ITF at +4/8, but definitely seeing threads with tankers doing it. I expect Brutes and Scrappers are as well.
Lol I guess I'm one of those "up in arms" too?
I think the funny thing is, the OP asked for me to elaborate but wanted me to respond his way. There's a saying about beggars not being choosers or some such...
And when people say "OP", it's likely being used broadly or hyperbolic. Even if Stalkers are OP, there are a lot of other OP factors across other powersets/ATs that should be addressed before stalkers. And even if Stalkers aren't literally OP, that isn't a damned free pass to add stuff for practically no reason besides "that'd be cool". You can suggest it all day, but don't call foul when you get a dissenting opinion.
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9 hours ago, Parabola said:
This would be where I'd start. Many of these toggles have dreadfully slow cast times making them unworkable in a fast paced team. Of course said team might not need these debuffs in the first place but that's a different issue.
I'd actually argue to have them suppressed while in stealth, so you can stealth up to a group, cast Darkest Night on something in the middle but has no effect until you drop a Tar Patch or an attack. Of course, this would only be the case for special stealth powers that have an "on" and "off" flag and not unsuppressed stealth powers like Shadowfall.
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10 hours ago, Katharos said:
(Honestly, did someone roll sonic solely on the basis that Disruption Field has interesting targeting options? Was that a reason someone rolled sonic?)
I like to assume the way they brainstormed powersets is similar to how we do it: they come up with a power theme and as they are creating some of the powers, they think of unique mechanics to make it different from other sets. Sonic Dispersion is similar in make-up as Force Field? Ok, what other effects could we try and implement? Well, instead of a personal barrier (PFF already has +res in it) how about a debuff toggle to lower resistance...and let's make it an ally toggle.
Sonic Dispersion is a fairly old set, back before they added combos and charge mechanics to any sets.
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7 hours ago, nihilii said:
Honestly, I have never seen a Scrapper thread asking for buffs to the whole AT. Or if I did, it was so long ago and so outlandish and universally decried it didn't stick with my memory... Do you have any example in mind?
It's on the first page.
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So you're not going to actually engage any points I made.
Understandable.
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20 hours ago, Madae said:
This post would be better if you offered up an opinion on why you think this. It sounds oddly familiar, by the way, and isn't very helpful (see previous posts). I mean, if you don't want to have a discussion, that's fine, but it's not a convincing argument and does nothing to change opinions on the subject. I'm also very suspicious of any claims from people that apparently "enjoy the class so much" that they think absolutely nothing is wrong with it, or it couldn't be better.
No, I'll admit to having charged posts. If you have a problem with it, don't complain about it. Report it.
EDIT: Also, to double down on something, you'd have to refute it first.
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18 hours ago, Madae said:
Better, but could have done without that tinge of attitude. I will consider your opinion as nothing more than that, and it appears that you've had this conversation before and need to justify it to "new people" often enough to be annoyed(?) by it, which leads me to believe it's not all that uncommon and I'm not the only one that thinks this (evidenced by some in this thread having mixed opinions about it as well). We can agree to disagree on how this topic could be addressed. I'm under no illusion that anything I think will see any actual development, but it's interesting to talk about at the very least and see what other ideas, suggestions and comments people have on it, so thanks for that at least.
That's an odd way to thank someone for answering your request.
But no, it's not about being annoyed or having this conversation about Stalkers over and over. This is moreso about the overall balance that you're not seeming to understand. If you hadn't yet, try looking at any other AT forum and spot the thread asking for buffs to that AT. It's not so much about fixing problems with ATs (for example: I said I don't think it would be the end of the world if they made Assassin's Focus refresh the oldest stack) but rather the rationale used to try and justify their suggestions.
Go ahead. Look on the Scrapper or Blaster forums and they too will have thread asking for buffs. One has to wonder, they can't all be right, right? But it's more plausible that they are all wrong for similar reasons.
And yes, take my post as an opinion. I never state it as fact. At best, it's bringing you the talking points that have long been debated right to you rather than just patting you on the back with a "sure, kid" and a thumbs up.
2 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:I love stalkers and I like the suggestions offered by the OP.
Demoralize is very useful at lower levels before you start to encounter very many unstoppable IOd toons. I would say stalkers are much more useful to your average PuG than a scrapper in those levels. They make a much better alpha breaker than a scrapper.
Once the game shifts from trying to survive, to dps is king, the stalker starts to lose value quickly. It’s odd that this happens with a “glass canon” type archetype, but it’s what my experience has shown.
Therefore, my suggestion, 40% defense hard cap for non tank types.
Wait, isn’t this thread about buffing stalkers and wouldn’t that be a nerf to stalkers? Yes. Demoralize is the key however. If a stalker chooses to open with AS then they are able to essentially soft cap themselves and their teammates for a short duration. The value that stalkers enjoy at the lower levels is then still available at the higher levels once IOs have taken over.
More value would be available in opening with AS and at the same time not be mandatory. It would maintain the value and flavor of the archetype that you experience at the lower levels into the final levels.
I think the buffs suggested sound like reasonable quality of life buffs. I also think a bit of a spreadsheet nerf would result in a buff to play experience.
Your hearts in the right place but I feel this debate is wholly for another thread (talking about adjusting defense/hit chances). Also, probably no one here will engage your post because of that, but I feel it does touch on a large aspect of the game that is going to limit balance and thus will only exacerbate the problem (which is why I said "Stalkers don't need a buff"). If the enemy has no teeth and you just have to push out as much AoE as possible, you devalue a lot of game mechanics to include tanking, healing/defensive support, control, and burst damage/ST DPS. When no one cares how they're going to survive because the foes die too fast or barely do anything to you, suddenly any defensive secondary effects have less value, everyone is a tank, only offensive support is necessary and the most valuable metric (damage) is going to be hyper-compared to every other AT with no/little context.
Hopefully, OP, having someone countering your points will get more of a discussion going than just jumping on your bandwagon. You can passive aggressively thank me later.
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5 minutes ago, Madae said:
This post would be better if you offered up an opinion on why you think this. It sounds oddly familiar, by the way, and isn't very helpful either.
Since you're new here, sure. I'll catch you up.
On 6/9/2021 at 5:50 PM, Madae said:Posted this in discord feedback, but I guess it would probably do more here...
I feel like Assassin's Focus needs to have a shared timer for all 3 stacks that is refreshed when you use an ability, so when you finally choose to use your Assassin's Strike, a charge doesn't unexpectedly fall off and ruin the whole setup. It's too inconsistent, and slightly annoying, when trying to target mobs that don't need a huge burst like that and it would be better saved for something more deserving, but then misses because you took too long to act.
Frankly, I don't have a particular issue with this point but it's very minor. At best, it's merely an inconvenience and a lot of powers/ATs have their "less than stellar" points but that doesn't mean they all have to be completely ironed out to make them as smooth as possible. Why? Because the overall game, as is, is very simple and very gamable. Think of those issues as being curves in a track that you have to then keep adjusting to while you cruise through the course. You don't live curves in your course? Scrapper is a straight NASCAR "just turn left" AT. Not every player wants a (more) braindead gameplay loop in this regards.
If they change it, it's not going to be the end of the world, but neither is it if no change is made.
On 6/9/2021 at 5:50 PM, Madae said:I also think Assassin's Strike from stealth should do 5x damage instead of 3x. I find it pretty ridiculous that almost all high level Stalkers, or at least the opinion, is that they don't even utilize this class "strength" since it's so much more "efficient" to just combo up and get the instant strike instead, so it seems like, to me, it should at least do more damage than all of the strikes necessary + assassin-insta combined, and would also make placate useful again. Arguably Stalkers are already pretty terrible at everything else, so they really need some sort of buff like this, imo, and on the surface, I don't think it would unbalance the game all that much, plus make them more enticing in this playing field that's completely dominated by mass AoE.
While I can sympathize with you, no one cares. Even at 5x damage, it likely would be a DPS loss because of the cast time/interrupt possibility. AS from Hide is still a very useful tool if you want to reduce an alpha strike with demoralize. You *might* be able to get the -ToHit or the fear chance increased, but increasing the damage is only asking to shake the boat on damage which is not something that needs to be done on a mere whim of "I think we should have this" argument. You start adjusting damage numbers in a fashion that starts shifting gameplay and you upset the delicate/already turbulent quadfecta of melee ATs.
But overall, it's just not needed.
On 6/9/2021 at 5:50 PM, Madae said:Also what I've noticed is that my Blaster (Beam/Atomic Manip) can just as easily delete a single target, and perhaps even better than my Stalker, and this is not even considering the other tools they, as an AT, have (with AoE's). With the numbers crunched, maybe it is or isn't true that Stalker DPS is already very high comparable to other AT's... but that's against a single target... that also doesn't move (since everyone likes to do tests against Pylons), but let's just say, for the sake of argument, that, in general, Stalker DPS is really high... that's cool and all, but no one is lining up to play them because let's just be frank here; Stalkers are pretty plain and boring in the greater scheme of things. They have all these cool tools that differentiate them from other classes, and yet they are, as a class overall, mediocre in comparison. MAYBE with heavy set slotting, a lot of time, effort and patience, Stalkers really start to shine, but that doesn't really do anything for anyone but the most dedicated Stalker.
Yup, if you have a problem with that, you should just play Blasters. And not all Blasters are going to delete single targets as well as a Stalker can (see: Dark, Sonic, Archery, DP and Water Blast). Beam Rifle just so happens to be one of the more pominent options for Blasters to obliterate STs from range easily and it pays for that proficiency.
Another aspect of altering damage tends to get Blaster into the mix as well since it is the damage king period AT.
On 6/9/2021 at 5:50 PM, Madae said:I suppose I probably get some arguments about this, and that's fine... tell me where I'm mistaken and we can discuss it more thoroughly, but I've tried half a dozen Stalkers since I started playing again recently, all to around 40+, and they just aren't all that they're cracked up to be. I want to like them, maybe they're just "not for me", which I think is a cop-out for their clear design problems, but maybe others can tell me different - obviously there will be people out there that have put much more time and effort (I call that pain) into this than me.
The prominence of Stalkers lies in their efficiency and their predictability. On my Psi/Ice Stalker, I don't worry about doing the most damage or killing the most targets. I only care that *MY* target dies and when it's dead, I already have another target in mind. You can let the AoEs fall because you're prioritizing trouble enemies that you know will outlast those AoEs or that can extend the confrontation longer. He can go in and BU+AS his target and it's most likely going to die pretty quick then use Mass Levitate to get his +rech proc going as well as likely get his BU back. He then can start picking on other hard targets using BU+Insight+Placate+Greater Psi Blade for another massive punch or just go into a normal chain. When everything looks like it'll be cleared up, I can skip out on the cleanup and start using Boggle on the next opponents then get ready for another AS+BU.
Others will tell you about specific attack chains for max damage, which is dandy, but you don't have to lock yourself into just attack chain DPS rotations/benchmarks in this game. You can do other things with this AT, you just have to be willing to swallow your pride in order to do them.
On 6/9/2021 at 6:22 PM, Madae said:I definitely haven't played all Stalker combos, so maybe others, like you said, perform better than some options.
I typically find that my Assassin's Strike isn't nearly as cool as I would want it to be, at any rate. It should literally be overkill: "the button", like for example I'm running +2, maybe even higher, I should have no problems at any time deleting a boss with a stealth Assassin's Strike, but as it is, results often vary from set to set, and it's most often I need a follow-up or two (or three) to finish the job on even same-level bosses sometimes (most likely a resist issue, but still), which I think defeats the purpose of a Stalker altogether. If a bunch of other AT's can have fun massacring big groups, even single targets, and have all these flashy attacks, etc, I should feel the same way about my ability to remove that single threat from the fight easily. The problem should then be about my ability to actually hit the target, whether or not I can get away without dying, or something else. The fact that a Stalker is in melee and already in danger adds to their problems, so it needs to be better offset with the strength of being an extreme glass cannon on single targets aka insta aggro, and if the mob happens to survive the hit (like an Elite Boss or Arch Villain), they are now in trouble and probably soon to be dead from retaliation, which would make the Stalker revert to the more classic damage damage damage insta combo to avoid drawing too much attention that they certainly should not be able to handle all that well.
Well that's just dumb (talking about hide+AS being an "overkill: the button" part).
Stalkers are no longer special. They fall under similar aspects of DPS as other DPS ATs. Now there was a point where Hide+AS was being tested to do a % of the targets' HP, which would make you a big killer of hard foes but you now how standard DPS rotations. Your special toy is no longer going to get polished because of that.
On 6/9/2021 at 7:00 PM, Madae said:I don't see where anyone can come up with this. What exactly makes them OP? Is this a end game, 100 hour, set IO filled OP? Because that's pretty much every class in one way or another. Or is it the "Stj has the highest DPS on a Pylon" OP that I read somewhere? I need more info.
It's more like "Stalkers tend to have more melee sets where they do better DPS than other ATs using the same set" type of OP.
For a while, Savage Melee was just disgustingly OP on Stalkers, and now it's just regular OP on Stalkers.
On 6/9/2021 at 7:53 PM, Madae said:Yes, the ATO's synergize well, but that is exactly the point I was making that most of the "help" Stalkers get come from outside sources, more or less a bandaid for the problems inherent in the class, and does nothing for people who don't have those things yet, ie the "level 50 stacked set OP" Stalker. The fact that their old power sets are mostly garbage and only the newer power sets are good really highlights the problem the AT faces, and if the solution to Stalker is "out with the old, in with the new", we're still not really solving the problem, you're just avoiding it and potentially limiting the pool of Stalkers to very few power sets that work instead of changing some questionable things about the AT in general... that seems like more work to me when you can just make all of their older sets viable by increasing base Stalker potential and adjust things as you go along and find out new issues with those changes.
I don't really consider any of this OP territory to be honest. If they were truly OP, I would think I'd be seeing a lot more of them around, and that is simply not the case. Other classes do generally the same things, but "better" or "safer" or "consistently", however you want to put it, and this isn't even getting in to the part where AoE rules the game and AT's that everyone ends up playing because it's just more fun or more efficient or just altogether easier to accomplish and do well with, plus the other toys they generally come with compared to a very specific set of melee options + some defensive clickies and that's it for Stalker.
And one other more important thing to point out I think is that if the method is adjusting their new power sets to include things that they were historically missing, you're basically just making the Stalker a Scrapper to cover it all up, only slightly worse defensively, and doesn't really do any of the unique things that Stalker comes with (see not even bothering to stealth strike since it's a waste of time). I find that an odd choice for a fix instead of trying to play to their strengths.
This is a *YOU* problem, btw.
If you don't like the old powersets, then play the new powersets.
As for not seeing a lot of Stalkers around, you do. Most of them solo, for obvious reasons. There was also a stigma on Stalkers for quite a while but don't base levels of OP on popularity. The main reason Stalkers aren't doing Fire Farms is because they don't excel at the premiere aspect of the game that everyone is looking to exploit: AoE. That isn't to say all Stalkers are terrible at AoE. Just like there are Blasters that excel at deleting bosses, there are Stalkers that excel at AoE (see: Savage Melee, Spines, Elec or Rad).
13 hours ago, Madae said:I think it's 10, and sure it's low, but you'll most likely be 50 by the time you slot both sets, unless you already have some alts that farmed a lot of it for you. For the new player coming in to the game and thinks "Hey, Stalker sounds cool", they will likely find themselves in a position of being extremely disappointed at how well they fare vs literally every AT they end up grouping with. It definitely takes a very specific mindset and what you want to go about doing, mostly for thematic reasons I think, that keeps a Stalker player - the type of player that cares more about how "cool" they are, versus how effective they are, and with enough work, you can get there for sure, but that's a lot of investment in comparison to other AT's.
I've never quite been a fan of the argument "It's an MMO, the "real game" starts when you hit 50" - not that you're saying that, but just as an added note here - where generally I think the most fun part of MMO's is everything in between the start and finish, and this is where you see Stalker being that red-headed step-child that everyone finds tolerable, but could otherwise completely live without.
Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you don't have the ATOs, Stalkers are still great. It doesn't matter about new players not knowing about the ATOs, they will learn. This is not a subscription MMO or an MMO that is building players. If you want to play Stalkers, play Stalkers. You shouldn't have to be handed a golden scepter to play an AT. Just play it. I did the same with Masterminds, not knowing what the fuck I was doing but I wanted to give them a good college try and I have 3 in the 40s and they are different. There is no point in trying to build "retention" or trying to solidify a subsection of the playerbase. Go play a Peacebringer because it's different, not because it has x,y and z better than everyone else.
6 hours ago, Madae said:It depends on the damage you're expecting them to out perform on. Stalkers should absolutely be better at single target, imo... but since the way its going, we just seem to be getting stalkers more equalized with scrappers by giving them access to the powers they didn't have in the past... instead of buffing their unique power that I think they should focus on instead. Scrappers are better, or were better, at AoE. Stalkers were designed for single target. I don't see a problem with that as long as some things change, but it is what it is.
I think Stalkers get the upperhand on plenty of sets, ST or otherwise. Electric Melee is a good example. Dual Blades isn't a bad one either.
And one of the main reasons I say just give Stalkers BA/WM, Super Strength, Titan Weapons, etc is because those sets tend to have hard hitting attacks and hard hitting attacks is the premiere of what Stalkers do best at. Besides SS needing to be rebalanced to have Build Up, being able to 50% chance to crit Whirling Smash or Arc of Destruction or 100% crit Shatter/Cleave or Knockout Blow is going to be devastating when combined with Stalker's tools.
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Stalkers do NOT need a buff. They're better than fine.
The only thing Stalkers need is Battle Axe/War Mace, Titan Weapons, Super Strength and Stone Melee.
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14 hours ago, golstat2003 said:
As long as it's an optional setting that people can turn on sure. Leave the base game as is.
Nope. It should literally be baked into the notoriety system at +3 or above. If you'd want to opt out of rebalanced stronger foes, you turn your levels down.
12 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:I've long thought that's how to make Dominators and Controllers more useful. They don't necessarily need to do more direct damage, just for players to face more encounters worth shutting enemy defense/resistance down.
I also made that suggestion. Giving enemies abilities that raised their HP, def, res, damage, ToHit, etc via toggle-like powers so that you'd want to shut them down or decently improve team efficiency by shutting the powers off would be how I'd make sleeps better. I'd also rebalance toggle dropping as a mechanic so that things like Holds and Stuns only have a chance of dropping toggles (maybe add a suppression mechanic that lowers/halves the effectiveness of their toggle powers when under such mez) while Sleep *will* shut off those toggles.
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4 minutes ago, Menelruin said:
As I mentioned earlier, the problem with Empathy relative to other sets is that it's designed around recovering when things start going BADLY. If a team isn't having problems in the first place, then an Empathy defender doesn't have a ton (relative to other sets) they can bring to make the team even BETTER. Hence the suggestions of modifying powers so they're useful even when people AREN'T hurting, letting it be a proactive instead of reactive set.
Empathy already is proactive.
Empathy is ALSO reactive.
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On 6/8/2021 at 11:42 AM, LeoTheCat said:
The set is not "fine."
In the alternative, even if Empathy were to be perfectly acceptable up to level 49, your standard of "1-50" includes 50, where there is a significant amount of group content and the set fails to perform adequately.
The general sense is that Empathy struggles even with IOs; without them, Empathy's performance is unusually poor compared to other Defender primaries. As Arcane notes, Empathy's problems are magnified at 50+ with IOs and incarnates, but those problems still exist even at lower levels. To the extent that the play experience from approximately 30 forward, fully inclusive, is not covered by your balance heuristic, then that heuristic itself should be rejected. If we too narrowly define the problems and measurement standards, then it's impossible to analyze, improve and control for them. This is why I suggested a set of performance and playstyle standards in the original post. I understand if you think that performance in that context is a useful standard (which it is), but should we be limited to that standard alone? Should we otherwise reject evidence and experience from the community out of hand?
Per my initial post, discussion of improvements to Empathy does not have a preclusive effect on improving other powersets. This is a good "bigger discussion" to have, and, from the looks of the Suggestions and Feedback forum, people are already enthusiastically engaging in it.
It is "fine" in the context of what "fine" actually means. The problem is, what you define as "fine" has shifted because the set is not "best" at something when that is NOT the definition of "fine".
Now bookmark the other 3 paragraphs I quoted there for later in my post...
On 6/8/2021 at 12:06 PM, kikyoku said:There seems to be a weird idea in the IO discussion regarding specced out blasters. If someone is running around at end game with soft cap defense from IO and incarnate powers, any support is going to be diminished.
What makes empathy stand out is that it focuses on restoring damage taken rather than preventing it. The reason this is underpowered at that level is because you can't normally heal above max hp, but you can always get higher defense and most aren't capped on resistance.
I think regen/max hp boosts/absorb are all criminally under utilized and represent an opportunity for empathy. Because of hard caps, you WILL get hit, and you WILL take damage. If you get them high enough, incarnate heals and regen will make up the difference, but if you can do that without external support then every support set is useless.
Bookmark most of this quote as well.
Another interesting point you make is about Absorb being criminally underutilized. One issue with that is, Absorb is hardcapped at, I believe, the target's max HP to which then only absorb is going to have any kind of affect on them. If you have capped or a prominent amount of absorb, why would you need heals or regen? Same usually goes with capped def, why do you need -ToHit if the target is already at the ToHit floor? Or why would you even need absorb if hits are so heavily resisted and rarely ever hit at all? You don't make something more valuable by inflating numbers.
On 6/8/2021 at 1:49 PM, Eldyem said:I disagree with this - it's incredibly common to have powerset combos, on SOs, that have individuals not dying. If no one is ever actually hitting zero then a healing set is redundant, full stop. And I'm saying this as someone who recently introduced several friends to the game and some of them didn't even update their SOs regularly. Players die from mistakes far more than content being too difficult, and honestly Empathy isn't even the best set for saving people from themselves. That's my issue with set.
This can not be stressed enough. Empathy, on SOs, is a massive underperformer outside of Hami raids. It's still an underperformer with IOs.
I think this is an incredibly unfair metric - an Arachnos Soldier with double leadership toggled and fully slotted, set to auto follow someone, is hugely useful to a team at +0/8 when playing 1-50 on SOs. It's also less useful than said Soldier actually fighting mobs. We want Empathy to be on a similar level as other powersets on SOs, and I don't think that's an unfair ask. It's bad that Emapthy's rez is worse than other sets rezzes, it's bad that Empathy's cooldowns are prohibitively long for powers people can accidentally juke if your timing is off, and it's bad that those powers have situations, on SOs, where they're factually just not changing any outcomes.
That last point is the worst thing a support set can be, and an issue also found in Force Fields (but worse with the right/wrong team); (potentially) irrelevant.You're moreso making an argument to nerf Arachnos double leadership toggles or overperformers than you are for buffing Empathy. But bookmark this quote along with all the others above for later.
On 6/8/2021 at 2:01 PM, LeoTheCat said:The overwhelming majority of Empathy's powers cannot target self, so we have Healing Aura, Recovery Aura and Regeneration Aura. Apart from Recovery Aura, that's not a significant boost to soloing ability. The player is essentially playing only their secondary without having to worry about using blue insps for 90 out of every 500 seconds.
Empathy has variable performance on teams, based on the level of the team between 1-50 on SOs. An Empathy Defender is especially useful at 20, but less so at 30, and even less so as we progress toward 50. We're looking at a several different performance benchmarks rather than a single rating of "hugely useful."
The crucial benchmark that I brought up in the first post is balance: analysis of the powerset in relative terms compared to other Defender sets in terms of numerical output, power uptime and synergy of powerset with playstyle. As we have already identified, Empathy has extreme recharge times, unique positional challenges related to primary role as designated reactive healer, a self-debuff in Absorb Pain, lower numbers and higher APM for similar effects. All powersets in all ATs are currently evaluated in relative terms. See Galaxy Brain's (and others') threads on DPS and solo simulations.
We contend that relative output is already used as a standard by the Dev team, as seen most recently in the nerf to Rune of Protection and Titan Weapons.
This line of argument is disingenuous. The purpose of this thread is to strengthen Empathy (and other sets), not to nerf other sets down to Empathy's level.
This is a cool solution, and should certainly be on the table. But as others (including myself) have stressed, a central feature of Empathy is its buff capability, and its buffs are not competitive with other powersets at any level, SO or IO, incarnate or exemplar. We should also make its healing sufficiently unique, balance CM and improve the Rez. Several level-agnostic ideas for that have been suggested so far in this thread.
And finally, along with this quote, bring all those bookmarked points back to this final point:
Nothing you guys are suggesting changes a damned thing. It won't make Empathy better, or competitive with the overperformers or make them valuable or give them an easier time with their trouble spot (soloing). And because of that, none of these suggestions are necessary and in fact, just clutter up the game with more pointless power creep that will ultimately push for more buffs to this and other sets in an ever perpetuating loop.
So no, your ideas aren't good, they're unnecessary and are extremely aimless in their execution.
Could I see Empathy getting some help? Sure, in the solo department since only 3 of their powers are even usable solo and 2 of those are on long recharges. Why not change Clear Mind to be targetable on the enemy as well and when used, lowers the target's resistance to mez and their protection to mez by 2pts and does not aggro so for soloing, you have a 1-shot (technically 2 shot since you're using Clear Mind first) method of dealing with trouble targets like bosses and on Controller, you've got an even easier time juggling bosses thanks to the -mez resistance.
But all this expanded durations, faster casting, absorb shield mess is just fluff that doesn't accomplish much of anything.
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Playing the game, for me, is partly an exploratory experiment and partly a mental exercise in interaction with the story elements.
On the exploratory part, that comes with looking at power combinations, slotting and expertise that I've not played with and working that character into a limited lore of my own character comic universe. To dissect that a bit, I usually look to powersets I haven't played or have interest in (if I've played a set before, try combining it with something I haven't played) on top of utilizing pools/epics that I have not used much or exclude pools that I use more often. Then, creating a workable build using that template forced some out-of-the-box build crafting that tends to not be meta but very functional in typical play ranging from +2 to +4 and x2 to x4 with certain exceptions. So I might end up with a stalker that uses most of the Presence pool or a Tanker that has the whole magic origin pool or even a character who has 4 different PBAoE cone breath attacks that are his primary source of damage or a tanking defender with near capped def/res and lots of CC.
The story element side is done mostly solo (teaming is partly to break up the monotony, get extra rewards, etc). Reading the various portions of a story, I then form a lot of my own narrative about how my characters react and interact with what's going on dependent on the character's personality and how it could fit with the characters' backstory or the lore elements that bind them with my other characters. When a character has flaws and blindspots, it makes them much easier to fit within the confines of the world but also makes them more interesting as the stakes of the story get bigger (usually talking redside).
tl;dr version: much of the "playing the game" part is done outside of the game or within my own personal view of my characters. I'm sure I'm not the only one who does this with their "silent protag" characters in other games/MMOs. It makes creating multiple characters still somewhat engaging when doing the mostly solo story and exposing yourself to the various aspects of the game you were told was underpowered.
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I've seen this suggestion before. Curious how many read this:
There's some interesting ideas in there.
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5 hours ago, Black Zot said:
Considering every move the devs have made so far has been in the direction of mitigating knockback, this is highly unlikely. The immob change was specifically so control sets could easily corral effects that would otherwise send mobs flying out of reach, and there was, at one point, a test on beta of a one-stop "convert all KB to KD" solution. Gravity control has also had the pull-in effect added to Singularity which more than overpowers any knockback that thing does.
The devs have recognized that putting knockback in so many things was a dumb idea. The odds that they would reverse course and outright ruin a set that heavily relies on a KD damage patch to be viable are very slim.
I don't care about what you perceive as their trajectory. It doesn't change the fact that that IO messed up the balance of those powers and powers like it and I won't use it because I think it's broken.
For extra context:
Earthquake - 90sec recharge, 30sec duration, -10%def, -10%ToHit, no damage
Ice Slick - 90sec recharge, 30sec duration, -90% speed and -jump, no damage
Bonfire - 60sec recharge, 45sec duration, pulse fire damage
If nothing ever happens then enjoy your broken toys. If they do, perhaps wrap your mind around the fact that you've been exploiting things that should not be.
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6 minutes ago, Solarverse said:
The thing is, I spent a LONG time trying to figure out what to pair with /Thorn and Fire was my eventual primary that I decided on. So I plan to play this particular character long term and right now he is only level 20 since I have only soloed with him so far by doing the story arcs. However, eventually I will be teaming with him, getting him all decked out and such and I honestly don;'t want to continue playing him if they are going to nerf one of the key functions that was a determining factors for choosing it in the first place, heh. So if it's going to get nerfed, I would kind of like to know about it so I can re-roll now before he gets any higher level, I'm sure you can get where I am coming from there...we have all suffered that demise at one time or another, lol.I'm sorry, I have no idea if it would ever get nerfed. If rebalancing of the control sets were being considered, I'd nominate IO'ed Bonfire and Seeds of Confusion as some targets. If rebalancing of IO procs were being considered, KB>KD would likely not be spared among the rest.
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1 minute ago, 5099y_74c05 said:
Are you talking about AoE Immob + KB/KD patches like Bonfire, Ice Slick or Earthquake? If so that is incorrect. For Controllers at least this was patched some time back where the AoE Immobilize no longer cancels the patches effects. They prevent movement but allow the flopping.
Then that would mean that, without the KB>KD IO, Bonfire would just knock the target out of the patch regardless of the immobilize.
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2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:
Sounds like to me it needs to be brought in line with Ice Slick and Earth Quake and then the damage needs to be brought WAY down. However, I don't see them taking the ability to put a KB to KD in it going well with players. Just sounds like a balancing issue to me.
So should I not play Fire then? I mean, one of the reasons I am taking fire is for the KD of Bonfire, if they are just going to nerf it in a way that negates that KD, then I would be better off with Stone.Bonfire has been like it is for a while. If it does change, it probably won't be anytime soon but even if it does change, if you find it fun, use it while you can.
I remember when the P2W proc enhancement that knocked down was 100% chance and I played my Shield/DM with that enhancement slotted in Shadow Maul and abused it for the lolz all the way from level 1 to 38.
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1 minute ago, Solarverse said:
Ah okay, I see. Well then wouldn't it make more sense to lighten the damage and not so much the KB to KD IO? I understand it was not meant for KD, however, neither was any of the other powers that can use a KB to KD IO.As a positioning tool, that can seem like a punishment to control ATs that bury foes into a corner and keep them popping in a corner using Bond Fire.
New Thunderspy updates look pretty cool.
in General Discussion
Posted
Having expectations is reasonable but it hasn't been a wholly enforced expectation for workers to act "professional" on open public social media. Only in the last handful of years has it become customary to censor so draconian that the censorship itself causes untold animosity that terms like "toxic" are widely used to describe simply disagreeing.
But further still, user enforced professionalism when there is no actual accountability (no one would be getting fired or lose money or thrown in jail) seems as pompous as a power tripping volunteer dev just with less dignity.
tl;dr your standards aren't everyone's standard so stop pretending like you're setting the bar, of indeed you feel you are.