Dark Dove
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Posts posted by Dark Dove
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21 minutes ago, Chakykia said:
What's the meaning of "DDR" and "+5"?
Isn't the Alpha "musculature" almost negated by ED?
DDR is defense debuff resistance. It means when an enemy debuffs your defense, it will have less impact on you. It's a helpful stat vs. some of the more dangerous enemy types.
+5 means using Enhancement Boosters (which you can buy from the AH, or find in Super Packs, or through I think merits). It allows you to increase the effectiveness of an enhancement by +1 level per booster used, up to +5. So a level 50 set enhancement with five boosters acts like a level 50+5.
Alpha slots, when you get to higher tiers, ignore enhancement diversification values to some extent (read the powers themselves to see by how much per tier). This means you can push far beyond the normal damage % enhancement value than you would normally be able to with just enhancements, which makes it an attractive use of the Alpha slot, though the Alpha slot can be used for other purposes, damage is the most common use because you can take care of other issues such as defense and resistances with IO sets easily (case by case still, though, this isn't an always situation).
The economy on Homecoming is very forgiving, don't count out expensive builds, they aren't actually very expensive with minor effort and time investment.
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Luckily, you can adjust the difficulty settings for your missions to your tastes. Not challenged enough? Increase the number of players and/or enemy level as needed. Or, you can just not slot SO's and you'll get a similar experience.
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No AT is useless in endgame. There are a few specific situations in very specific missions where a Tanker is particularly useful.
I think what is closer to reality is, no AT is required in endgame for the most part. Every AT starts to function similarly with the addition of incarnate abilities and IO sets. Every AT can slot IO sets to get very high defenses, and every AT gets massive AoE damage and even mez protection. Tankers aren't special in this, all AT's start to look the same, all roles become muddy when everyone can do everything.
Tankers are great fun, and even if every AT can build tough, Tankers are the toughest still. Have fun with your Inv/SS, that's the point after all, right? Don't worry about what someone thinks about the AT, just focus on what you like about it.
Tankers are definitely not unwanted in endgame, they do smooth things over, just like other AT's.
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You have all the character slots, play each of them and figure out which you like best. It may not be the answer you want, but it's the best answer.
Corruptor works out strong in theory because of damage caps by AT (corruptor cap is higher) and additionally scourge, if damage is your goal. If I had to pick an optimal AT to play Kinetics on, it'd be Corruptor for me.
Defender gets powers earlier and has better secondary debuff values if you intend to do something like sonic or dark for blasting, etc.
Controller has access to controller primary powers if that's a playstyle you prefer. Mastermind has pets and stuff if you like that. These two seem like the weakest choices out of the gate.
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Back in issue 3 (or maybe it was 4, can't recall) my bf at the time made an ill/kin controller so that I could play a Stone tanker. I remember herding what seemed like hundreds of ninjas in the chimera map, so many that the fx engine stopped working and they'd kinda jump into each other and disappear, although they were technically still there they just wouldn't render or something. The caltrops spam was funny.
Simpler times, back then, the answer to the most unstoppable tanker. Though still needed a kin for efficiency, so maybe invuln was still the key back then. I hadn't played invuln at the time.
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Just now, Infinitum said:
Take a deep breath, I'm not attacking you. I don't care what is in your head.
So you really think they wanted to make tankers like stalkers then by giving tankers one toggle in one power that gave it a baseline stealth power? That was their overarching reason for porting dark armor to tankers - was because of stealth in cloak of darkness?
Were you around when they ported it?
I was.
I've played since issue 3. Not that it actually matters, you're just trying to weirdly assert dominance or something again. You have no authority here. You are attacking me, repeatedly, and your thinly-veiled condescension oozes out of every sentence you write.
You tell me to take a deep breath. You have no authority here. You be concerned with your breath, not mine. If you want to tell me I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong, but stop acting like you're coming from some place of authority. You're not. You can troll as hard as you want, it still doesn't make you any kind of authority. At all.
5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:So you really think they wanted to make tankers like stalkers then by giving tankers one toggle in one power that gave it a baseline stealth power? That was their overarching reason for porting dark armor to tankers - was because of stealth in cloak of darkness?
As to this part, no, I never said that at all. You're projecting again. Stalkers weren't even a thing when stealth was introduced into the game, or when Dark Armor was. I don't care about stalkers. I'm talking about tankers. I believe they ported Dark Armor purposefully, all of the powers in it included in that. Stealth is a part of tankers the same way healing is, or any other minor effect repurposed into an incentive to play a powerset. Anything else you're talking about isn't what I'm talking about.
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3 hours ago, Infinitum said:
They wouldnt have rewrote dark or forced an issue to try to make tankers more like stalkers and you need to get that out of your head cause that wasnt in their decision then. And it's not part of what tanking is now.
Again, no evidence of that, you're projecting. You're just a player, like me, you have no additional insights into the dev teams on live or the direction of tanking in general. Things put in the game by the live team are more likely to be part of the plan than not. Please don't tell me what to get out of my head, I'm not your child, you have no authority here, you're just another player like me. You be concerned about what's in your head, not mine.
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1 minute ago, Hyperstrike said:
We could always discuss giving mez protection to squishies at first level...
OH WAIT!Seems like something that's already covered somewhere else. I'm pretty happy with mez protection as it is, there seem like a lot of inroads to protection already, and everyone can get mez protection via incarnates eventually. I don't even think any tanker sets get mez protection at level 1 do they? You can only get it through P2W vendors that early.
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Still no reason to believe it was an action they took with little thought or as an afterthought. That seems like something you're projecting on it. I see no evidence of that, and your line of thought could be applied to literally any subject in the implemented game, if you disagree with any implementation.
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59 minutes ago, Infinitum said:
I didnt say it was intentional, or that it was even a mistake
I also didn't say you said it was intentional or that it was a mistake. Huh?
1 hour ago, Infinitum said:just an afterthought
This is what I disagree with. See above.
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13 minutes ago, Infinitum said:
You are overthinking this - they ported it over - probably with little thought to dark even having stealth
That seems like a bold assumption. They were serving a playerbase that was their paycheck. I don't think they did anything with 'little thought'. Just like the development team here, they're particularly careful with the things they enact (or take away). I think they deserve a little more credit.
The semantics are so muddy now that it doesn't really matter. I'll repeat the thank you for the conversation, I feel like we've hit an impasse. Now let's see if the conversation drops, or if some more people argue about it, I don't really have anything left to offer.
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43 minutes ago, Infinitum said:
I cant believe we are still talking about this.. lol
I can't either.
Your way of tanking is the right way of tanking. I'm saying this directly, without any reservation.
Can you say the same about mine?
(EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm speaking in general here. Not you, not me. No personal direction here. But rather, tanks who use stealth and tanks who don't. That's what these two lines are about.)
I think that's where the heat in this conversation comes from.
The original devs thought that stealth had a purpose for tankers, they included it in the Dark Armor set when they proliferated it to tankers (I think in issue 13?) I could link it on paragon wiki or something that stealth was given to tankers, but we'll just agree I hope, that it was, and that they had a reason for it. You can refute that of course, or say that it doesn't matter now, or that tankers should never have had stealth added, but the fact of the matter is that it was added to tankers, by the creative force who made the game, and has been used ever since. This game isn't other games. Roles are different here, and the devs understood that.
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1 minute ago, Hyperstrike said:
Not sure why "less than perfectly optimal" chafes you this bad.
Not saying it's a *FLAW*. It isn't.
Not saying it's *BAD*. It's not.
Not saying it gets people killed. It doesn't.
What I'm saying is Tanks that use stealth are doomed to The Special Hell. (You know you are!)
Okay, all kidding aside. It's merely a different way to play. Different is just that. Different. NOTHING MORE.I'm fine with the statement "This is a different playstyle" and I'll always accept that. That's my entire statement bundled up succinctly. That's the truth of the matter. If that's what you actually mean to say, I'm 100% behind you on it. I think we're even on the wrong page with "different way to play" because it isn't actually a different way to play for most; tankers with stealth act almost exactly the same as those without, they just have additional abilities to handle situations that don't require combat. We're probably in reality on the same page, just different paragraphs.
I'll never be fine with (paraphrasing) "This isn't how you tank" or "This isn't good on Tankers" or "Tankers don't stealth" or any other amalgamation of that kind of sentiment, and I don't think it's out of line to voice that opinion. I've dialed back any rhetoric surrounding it as best I can, but I'm only a marginally self-aware Karen, it isn't always easy for me to do that. To me, any statements like those I listed are specifically not saying this is "a different way to play"; they are specifically saying "this is the wrong way to play". To me, that's not something I can agree with and I can't let go without at least offering the other side.
9 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:Okay? We good?
Because this hair is split so fine the constituent quarks are breaking back down into the quantum foam...We're absolutely good. It's very good that we're all still here sharing our views. I hope it continues, albeit on another topic that's less... I'll call it lively.
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7 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:
Just that there are times when stealth powers make performing at a high level on a Tanker...more difficult
I have never encountered a time like this, and like most of you, I've played this game a lot. I have also never seen a tank who is running Cloak of Darkness cause any problems in any team, ever. Dark Armor tankers are not that rare either.
7 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:All that was said is that Stealth is basically antithetical to a Tanker's mission.
Only in a broad meta sense though. In practice these statements are essentially meaningless. Whatever perceived issues in these assessments just never happen in the game. Are all of these points coming from people who play Tankers with stealth and have had problems? Or are they coming from people who are only theorizing that an issue may arise?
7 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:If you're reading beyond that, that's on you boss.
The tone of many anti-stealth posts are insults and insinuations, regardless of other content. That's why people are reading beyond any actual meanings. That's not actually on anyone but the aggressor. These forums are becoming increasingly unfriendly and it isn't like the population is going to explode again any time soon. We should cultivate the members of the forum and have more consideration, otherwise we'll just end up bickering with the same circle of people with the same ideas over and over (and their alt accounts of course)
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8 hours ago, nihilii said:
I feel compelled to post just to say @Dark Dove has been 100% right in this thread. If you skip CoD, you're losing out on 8% defense. There is functionally no difference between a Dark Tanker and any other Tanker when it comes to aggro management, except by choice.
That is, a player who sits around twiddling their thumbs for 10 seconds between each group may find their stealth is recharged; and if they stroll at a snail's pace to the next group, expecting enemies to notice them without input of their own, then yes: it is possible another faster player might get the mobs' attention first.
But, if you play normally, which in my book for a tanker would be jumping from group to group as soon as everyone is inside the mission and ready, always be the vanguard, and open every fight with a large PBAoE (and all Dark Tankers have one large radius fast recharge PBAoE if nothing else: Dark Regen), then your stealth is perma suppressed and you never ever lose aggro.
It's also worth noting that the anemic Tanker playstyle WILL make you leak aggro, no matter what Tanker primary you play. You can't passively rely on mobs hitting you first based on line of sight. One has to actively generate threat with attacks or at least auras (which are very limited in range).Thanks. I have been aggressively pro-stealth in this topic and it seems to have ruffled some feathers, which has rattled me, I've made some apologies in private messages because I was out of line at least a few times. I don't think the basics of my argument are incorrect, but I do think my approach has been too heavy handed.
On that note, sorry @Infinitum particularly for how I've treated you, you're expressing your thoughts and I've been stomping all over them, sometimes unfairly so.
I play very similarly to how you describe, nihilii. I'm an aggressive tanker that jumps from spawn to spawn as soon as things are under control to keep my team moving at a brisk pace. This is the playstyle I encourage for today's version of city of heroes. Absorb alpha strike, manage dangerous targets until the team is settled on the spawn, move to the next spawn before the remaining enemies from the previous spawn are defeated so that you can set up the new spawn for the team's arrival. Stealth isn't the reason you run stealth as a tanker, you run it for the other benefits. The stealth aspect is for noncombat purposes, I'm not sure where the lines got crossed and people think that stealth is for avoiding aggro during fights as a tanker with stealth; you use the stealth when you aren't fighting, not when you are, you just keep it running for the defense, immob protect, +perception etc. It doesn't actually stop you from tanking to full effect. Stealth is for finishing missions quickly and skipping objective barriers, that's it. It's good. Skipping to objectives can be the most efficient way to complete things, and that goes for all levels of content, I'm not just addressing high-octane extreme build speedruns in incarnate content, which makes up the smallest part of the game.
I have a lot of faith in the team that runs the servers and creates the content and keeps things moving on Homecoming. When it comes to EA tankers (if that happens, hope it does) and their choices I'll be happy with whatever they decide, stealth or not, because their reasoning will show in the gameplay rather than theory. I can talk about how useful stealth is a lot apparently, but if it makes more sense to them to get rid of it, then I'll still probably play EA and I will enjoy it. My goal here was primarily to compare Dark Armor's stealth component to Energy Aura's, and show that it is something that can be used to good effect even on an AT like tankers, and is actively being used by the community that way. It isn't a throwaway component, and I hope it is at least considered in the Brute to Tanker translation.
@Arisara won't even refer to me by name and keeps calling me the stealth tank fella which is inaccurate in so many ways that it's condescending at best, so I guess I've done all the damage I can do here. Thanks for all of the insights everyone! It's at least been a revealing conversation.
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Just now, Infinitum said:
No they wouldn't, 😉
my stealth is always suppressed because I'm running my agro and damage auras to maximize agro control.
Again with the word "against" also.
Not utilizing a feature because it doesnt contribute to how tankers are played to maximize what a tanker is supposed to do, and not really needing it, is not the same thing as being against it.
I'm not against stealth in dark armor - for the record - I just don't need or utilize its benefit.
Because I'm usually in the center of an agro capped ruckus lighting bad guys on fire left and right with dark energy and laughing at them as their attacks tickle fight me.
Sorry, what word is the right word, I'll use it instead of against and edit it out right now, not trying to put any words in your mouth.
Do you recommend leaving teams where Tankers are running cloak of darkness?
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10 hours ago, Arisara said:
I've read this back and forth for a while now. Enjoying your build is most important. However if I'm on a team with a tanker having stealth activated I'll be leaving that team as soon as I notice. A tanker under stealth is only gonna get me killed for not TANKING mobs away from me.
Every dark armor tanker runs Cloak of Darkness, or at least most do for the other benefits it provides (Immob and very good defense, and of course stealth). So you can generally, if you prefer, comfortably leave any team where there is a dark armor tanker running all of their toggles. You'll even want to leave @Infinitum teams when they are running a dark tank, because they run stealth too, even though they don't utilize the stealth as a tanker ability.
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8 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:
No worries....while I hate to do this but curiosity is getting the better of me and not to start another.....lengthy conversation, Energy cloak if ported over wouldn't equate to a Cloak of Darkness type toggle? (Honestly, I "skimmed" over your guys posts, sorry too much for my old eyes to keep up with, so I might be missing ALOT)
I dont have access to Mids so I can look at the numbers, but, a port over should be relatively easy with some adjustments.
Although as a tanker which to me is the center of attention having a stealth seems...odd.
BUT, I think of Martian Manhunter and it makes sense to me at least.
Back to the subject at hand, I went with a Dk/Dk tanker. Numbers look good, and seems with all the -to hit, heals, regen, recovery, its going to seem unstoppable.
I'll probably go with GW pool for gloom and darkest night.
Don't forget Dark Obliteration if you can fit it in, it's a great AoE.
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3 hours ago, Infinitum said:
lol which one? theres about 3 or 4 to choose from on this one, none of which pertain to the OP really.
Sorry OP
Yep, I agree, sorry OP, all of this EA stuff should be in suggestions and feedback. EA isn't a Tanker set to choose from right now so it's irrelevant. Hope you find or found something you enjoy playing, OP! Most tankers are unstoppable if you build them right which is easy, and play them right which is something you'll pick up on.
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4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:
All my points were rational and factual and on topic.
It was already stated that giving that up would give up a little defense also since stealth is normally tied to defense.
The sticking point is CPH is worried EA had too much defense - so with it being a tanker - stealth is not needed and would sacrifice the defense that goes with it to bring it in line with what coild work. They took stealth out of sent EA which was also stated - so there is already precedent for that move.
Alright, nice discussion, thanks! You do you, tanker!
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9 minutes ago, Infinitum said:
And that is also fine, but at the end of the day tankers dont need stealth to be good tankers - which is why if you had to give something up to gain EA for tankers - that is where you would start.
Finally, a rational point that is on topic. I don't disagree with this assessment, except in the matter of needing to give it up to gain EA for Tankers. The stealth does nothing to make the tanker worse, and since by your judgement, it does nothing to make a tanker better, it cannot be the crux of balance necessary to make EA accessible to Tankers, as it has no value apparently, so where is the purpose in giving it up?
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2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:
This is true - it also wasnt about stealth in current powersets either till you took offense at something totally unrelated to what pissed you off - nobody is trying to take anything away from you. Play how every you want. How many time must I say that to you? lol
Then it turned into what a tankers role is - which is to... Say it again with me
1. Grab and maintain agro
2. Survive it
3. Dish out damage.
Thats good because I dont have stealth toggled on.
Roles don't define every power in every powerset. There are reasons outside of role to include different effects and incentives.
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4 hours ago, Infinitum said:
That still won't change what I am telling you that a tankers role is to
1. Grab and maintain agro
2. Survive it
3. Dish out damage.
But the conversation isn't about what a tanker's role is.
4 hours ago, Infinitum said:lol. I'm not the bad guy here. Don't get mad at facts though.
We see you.
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1 hour ago, Infinitum said:
and ive been wrong a good bit at times on all sorts of topics, but not about what the tankers role is.
There is a first for everything, but I don't even think it matters what you think the role of a tanker is. This isn't a role-related issue. Sometimes tankers are solo. Sometimes tankers are teamed with all other tankers. There are a lot of times when roles lose meaning in this game. This isn't about roles. It's about stealth being a reasonable addition to any AT, including tankers. Every power doesn't have to further a role in a set, some can be luxuries, some can be for fun. I feel like we've tread this ground before but I guess we'll go there again.
Is stealth also not in the Blaster role? What about controller role? Kheldian? Brute? Scrapper? It doesn't matter, they can all get stealth and use it beneficially. There are many ways to stack stealth radius as well, so that issue is easily solved. And you can also build your tanker to be defensively difficult to hit, and still use stealth when that isn't necessary. Both options can be used at the same time. YOU CAN BE RIGHT TOO! I can agree with you! Imagine this, I'm the tough tanky tanker haha! I'm also the stealthy stealth tanker that can click that glowy without a streakbreaker hit from the mob that followed me in when I don't use stealth, because I used stealth instead, and now my team that doesn't want to clear the map can take a sigh of relief and move on to the next mission. Saved the day and we're both right, I could have tried to click that glowy with a mob of enemies shooting at me, but I didn't have to, I saved time because that streakbreaker never interrupted me this time around! Next time though, when I stealth in and click the glowy, oh no! The mob saw me! they're shooting me! But I'm also a tanky tough tanker, and I can dodge almost every hit so eventually, even with the odd streakbreaker, I can click that glowy and save the day again!
I'm not saying you can't play your way and be correct. I'm saying both ways are correct. You're saying my way isn't correct. The only things I said you were wrong about, if you read them, were your topics of conversation, the angles you are trying to push, and specifically your stuff about stealth radius that isn't what I'm arguing, I concede that stealth radius is a thing that is a game mechanic, I've conceded it before, get over it please and address the rest of the argument, the fact that stealth radius exists does not change the fact that stealth is a useful tool to have that can increase your efficiency, regardless of AT or role.
1 hour ago, Infinitum said:Which I literally posted from paragon wiki. Not my words - paragon wiki. Just for the record here. lol
Again, I conceded stealth radius is a thing, and asserted that it isn't relevant. Yes you have hard facts to back up that stealth radius is a thing. We all know! This isn't any gotcha topic, we know. It doesn't further the conversation though, it just states what we all know. Just for the record, I concede stealth radius is a thing! You can be seen! GASP! Now, back to our regularly scheduled bickering.
thoughts on poison->venemous_gas
in General Discussion
Posted
In almost all circumstances for the way I play, yes. I almost never use long-snipe on any character though in any meaningful way; it seems to actually slow down my DPS if I take the time to wait for slow snipe to be active and then wait for the full animation time, when I could be instead just rotating through my attacks again during that time.
This essentially means I put zero value on slow-snipe, so Venomous Gas or any other positive value ability will take priority, for me, barring very special circumstances. There are good reasons to not use Venomous Gas, but for me, this isn't one of them.