Maelwys

Yes. Any damage dealt to "overcap" targets, including proc damage, gets reduced by the (overly harsh!) overcap damage reduction curve. See my post here which has a few relevant combat log snippets. So you can't just procbomb an AoE attack to soften/avoid the damage reduction.

Completely ignoring Procs, a 10ft Tanker PBAoE on Brainstorm is doing about 23% less damage; even to a SINGLE TARGET, than on Live. (That's a byproduct of moving the radius buffs out of gauntlet and into the attack itself) And if you're hitting the maximum number of targets (e.g. 16) then you can expect to be dealing about 39% less damage than before. (That's the result of the "overcap damage reduction" nerf) Cones are even worse. Cones have a narrower arc than before and a far steeper "overcap damage reduction" than AoEs. Procs have been reduced in effectiveness too, yes, but even without procs Tanker AoEs are getting hammered; and Tanker Cones are getting obliterated. SuperStrength is less impacted than other sets because FootStomp has a 15ft radius by default. But if you hit >10 targets with it then you'll start seeing noticeable reductions.

Same for MMs. The Blaster and MM Epic Pool version of Bonfire has had the appropriate flag for quite a while though; and currently there's no difference between Live + Brainstorm. So personally I think this is the Dominator + Controller version playing catchup.

I don't think they are. I mean, procs are A problem; sure; but I don't think they're THE problem in this case of Tankers overperforming other Melee ATs (especially Brutes) for AoE damage. And to be perfectly honest; the proposed moving of the Radius buffs from Gauntlet into each individual power seems to be reducing the impact of damage procs on Tanker AoEs pretty nicely. By itself that is not too hard a nerf - it's lowering Tanker AoE base damage across the board and lowering proc likelihood in those AoEs at the same time. The existing implementation of procs is horribly unintuitive (what do you mean slotting local recharge reduces my damage output?!?) and rife with edge cases where powers have required tweaks to reduce activation rates (see: Irradiated Ground, Carrion Creepers, etc.) and frankly it needs napalmed from orbit then whatever's left fed to a leopard. But it's not a problem that is unique to Tankers. Patience. The Devs have been attempting to assemble the Horsemen of the Aprocalypse for a good many issues. I'm sure it's coming SoonTM.

Oh absolutely agreed on the radius thing - if there are 10 or fewer spread-out targets then the wider radius of the Tanker AoEs can still help. I'm pretty sure that Epic AoEs are unaffected by the changes though? Ball Lightning and Dark Obliteration on both Brutes and Tanks should still be dealing the same damage as before "unreduced by overcap" to 16 targets over 15ft... I just checked via a /respec on Brainstorm and that seems to be the case. Also Electrifying Fences is still listing a Target Cap of 10 and a radius of 15ft - so it looks like they've (correctly!) not gotten their target cap bumped... Most of my own Tankers use a combination of Single Target, Cone and AoE attacks (both Secondary Powerset and Epic Pools) over the course of an average mission. With these changes; any Cones and AoEs from their secondary powerset will have their damage drastically reduced; but any Single Target and Epic Pool attacks will be mostly untouched (aside from the +Damage and -Res effect reductions). So realistically there'll be little/no impact to whacking down a single target like a Pylon; but regular mission runs (especially at x8 or when teamed) will be hit very hard - not quite as hard as Tanker AE farming; certainly; but still very hard. Definitely harder than I'm comfortable with. I want Tankers to be dealing less AoE damage; but I don't want them to become "mechanically obsolete" on teams. And as it stands; if all these changes go live then the benefit of bringing a Tanker over a Brute will be a bit of increased AoE aggro control [due to bigger arcs and target caps] and a bit of additional survivability [due to higher MaxHP and Base Defence/Resist numbers]... at the cost of circa ~20% damage. Which would have been fine and dandy 15 years ago whenever "Aggro-Magnet Immortal-but-Low-Damage Bricks" were still somewhat desirable in CoX; but is almost completely irrelevant in the current state of the game. Sure, for soloing the min/max crowd will still be able to cram a few more damage procs into Tanks than Brutes whilst maintaining the same level of survivability... but for teaming (at least those beyond low-level SO-only PUGs) it hardly ever matters. So I can foresee Tankers only getting a spot on many teams if the leader really likes the player and/or doesn't care about killspeed... which is unfortunate; because that means they'll have simply traded places with Brutes as the "pity spot" melee AT.

Aye those numbers look more like it now. So purely with an AoE attack; when "Unbuffed" a Brute with Fury and procs has gone from dealing ~24.4% less damage than a Tanker to dealing ~21.9% more than them. And at the damage cap, a Brute has gone from dealing ~32.6 less damage than a Tanker to dealing ~9.4% damage more than them. That's a hefty difference to anyone who isn't being Fulcrum Shifted (or Active AE Farming + chugging red insps like candy) - and even then Brutes still "win". And Tanker Cones are going to be even worse off than that... and Tanker Single Target damage has always been less than the others anyway. Really not surprising therefore that folk are posting 30%-40%+ increases in Tanker mission clear times...

Unfortunately the damage figures you're using for Dragon's Tail on Brainstorm are still off quite a bit; because one of the side effects of moving the radius buff out of Gauntlet (a Global Buff) and into the individual attacks is that their base damage gets reduced (an attack's area is included in its damage calculation even before you consider procs!). Live: Brainstorm: I don't have a level 50 MA Tanker on Live handy; but I do have a level 50 Staff Tanker; and you can see this pretty clearly in their PBAoE (Eye of the Storm): Live: Brainstorm: That's 20.29*6=121.74 on Live; and 15.61*6=93.66 on Brainstorm; for a difference of -28.08 (e.g. 23.07% lower damage dealt; before considering less Proc activations!) Also; as I've mentioned earlier... Tanker Cone attacks are going to be hit even worse than Tanker PBAoEs because the Overcap damage reduction scaling hits cones much harder (meaning any foes >5 take far less damage than before) and the gauntlet radius changes have reduced the arc of melee cones (meaning that if you are surrounded by foes in melee range it's considerably harder to hit as many of them with the attack as before). Therefore sets that rely more on Cones (like Staff; and Claws, Dual Blades, Mace, Spines, Titan Weapons) are going to be considerably worse off. And all of that is before you consider Procs - they'll be activating less often and the "overcap" damage reduction applies to damage dealt by procs as well. Here's two combat log samples of me whacking 16 targets in an AE Fire farm on Brainstorm; with the Purple Proc's effect highlighted: You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Reactive Interface for 1.54 points of Fire damage over time. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 15.49 points of Smashing damage over time. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 85 points of Fire damage. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 56.95 points of Energy damage. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Reactive Interface for 10.62 points of Fire damage over time. You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 13.63 points of Smashing damage over time. You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Reactive Interface for 9.34 points of Fire damage over time. You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 13.63 points of Smashing damage over time. You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 74.82 points of Fire damage. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 13.84 points of Smashing damage over time. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 75.95 points of Fire damage. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 50.88 points of Energy damage. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Reactive Interface for 9.49 points of Fire damage over time. You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 7.13 points of Smashing damage over time. You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 39.14 points of Fire damage. You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Reactive Interface for 4.88 points of Fire damage over time. You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 5.34 points of Smashing damage over time. You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 29.36 points of Fire damage. You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 19.67 points of Energy damage. You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Reactive Interface for 3.66 points of Fire damage over time. You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 12.68 points of Smashing damage over time. You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 69.6 points of Fire damage. You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Reactive Interface for 9.34 points of Fire damage over time. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 13.63 points of Smashing damage over time. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Reactive Interface for 9.34 points of Fire damage over time. You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 3 points of Smashing damage over time. You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 16.51 points of Fire damage. You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 11.06 points of Energy damage. You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 2.25 points of Smashing damage over time. You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 12.38 points of Fire damage. You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 8.29 points of Energy damage. You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Reactive Interface for 1.54 points of Fire damage over time. You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 7.65 points of Smashing damage over time. You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 28.14 points of Energy damage. You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Reactive Interface for 5.24 points of Fire damage over time. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 4 points of Smashing damage over time. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Reactive Interface for 2.74 points of Fire damage over time. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 13.63 points of Smashing damage over time. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 74.82 points of Fire damage. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 50.13 points of Energy damage. You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Reactive Interface for 9.34 points of Fire damage over time. You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 13.63 points of Smashing damage over time. You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 74.82 points of Fire damage. IMO whilst the min/maxxers are going to find ways to soften the blow; I suspect "regular" Tankers like Shags are going to be suffering the most. ...and all that is why I think these changes; whilst individually perfectly fine; are too heavy-handed when taken collectively.

Issue 26, Page 4. Third point down under "Tanker & Brute Changes"

We definitely are. As @Erratic1 says, I tend to assume 80+ Fury unless I'm idling even on a ST focussed Brute. As for AoE Focussed ones? >90 easy.

A power like Footstomp has a target cap of 10 on Brutes. On Live that power has a target cap of 16 on Tankers... and it deals full damage to all 16 of them. On Brainstorm; it has a target cap of 16 on Tankers... and it deals full damage to the first 10; then a lot less damage to the 11th, even less damage to the 12, and so on. The severe dropoff on targets 11-16 means that if you're surrounded by enough mobs to hit the cap; you'll see an overall damage reduction of about 32%. It works out at a 32% reduction for 10-target AoEs like Footstomp; and a 46% reduction for 5-target Cones. It's true that Tanks can still hit more targets than Brutes (or Scrappers/Stalkers) with the same AoE. But their base damage and lack of Fury or Critical hits means that they need to be hitting more targets than those other ATs in order to deal competitive levels of damage. Now there's an agrument to be made that Tankers shouldn't be dealing competitive levels of damage in the first place; and the sheer level of AoE damage output that a min-maxxed Tanker can currently generate on the Live servers in a saturated environment (like AE Farming or ITF runs) is IMO definitely unbalanced... especially whenever you consider that Tankers don't need to give up as much in the way of survivability in order to procbomb their attacks. However this round of nerfs on Brainstorm is IMO a tad too heavy; it'll hit traditional "regular" Tanker builds like Shag's pretty harshly; and offensive Tanker Powersets that rely on Cones are going to be disproportionally affected regardless of how many Procs they have slotted. Tankers have always been well behind in terms of ST damage. It's AoE where they've been excelling. Personally I would like Tanker damage to be a hair behind Brute damage; yes... perhaps something in the region of about 5-10% less. Unfortunately those numbers show FM Tankers have gone from being ~11% Faster (4m30s) than FM Brutes to >20% Slower (>6m) overall; over the course of an average mission. And I wouldn't call a difference of more than 20% "a hair behind". If this goes live as-is... unfortunately I can foresee Tankers becoming the proverbial red headed stepchild again. At least for the "killspeed > all else" crowd.

Aye.

Scrapper (and Stalkers) will outdamage Brutes on a per-hit basis; but Tankers only pull ahead whenever they can hit more targets with the same attack(s). If you reduce the likelihood of the Tanker hitting more targets (Cone Arc reduction caused by the gauntlet changes) as well as reducing the damage that they actually deal to those targets (Base damage and Proc activation rate reduction caused by the gauntlet changes; plus the "Overcap" damage reduction) then Tankers will start lagging behind Brutes again pretty quickly. Tankers still have a major advantage for aggro control on Brainstorm; even if the reduced Cone Arcs hurt a little bit there compared to Live. (and again - just to preempt any squawking from the back row: I personally think that reducing Tanker AoE damage isn't a bad thing. But I also think that the combined effect of all of these individually quite reasonable + mechanically sound proposed changes is currently resulting in an overly harsh performance hit for Tankers on Brainstorm. So I'd like to see them implemented; but at a slightly lesser magnitude!) 🤞

Aside from BattleAxe and RadArmor powersets; Brutes and Scrappers are essentially unchanged from Live. Tankers are taking anything from 30-40% longer than before. Let's pick on Fiery Melee: ballpark times for a Trapdoor run on Live for it when min-maxxed are roughly ~5m30s on a Scrapper, 5m00s on a Brute; and 4m30s on a Tanker. On Brainstorm; you'd only be adding an extra ~5-10 secs to the Brute and Scrapper (for the Critter Regen rate buffs) but the Tanker will now be taking longer than 6mins. Tanker Pylon times are virtually unchanged. Tanker AE Farming (and "kill most ITF") times are now abysmal. Tanker regular Mission clear times are somewhere in between; depending on how many simultaneous mobs you're constantly fighting (because more foes = more impact from the overcap damage reductions and the reduced melee cone arcs) and how many procs you have (because more procs = more impact from the gauntlet radius changes). As it happens, my (non-RadArmor) SuperStrength Tankers are hurting much less than the others (presumably because my procbombed Footstomp's base radius was already 15ft; so the biggest hit to them is from the "Overcap" damage reductions!) and from what I can see the reduced damage-buffage from Rage is practically unnoticeable.

It's worth noting that Staff was slightly buffed; currently on Brainstorm whenever you have 3x Perfection of Body stacks Sky Splitter is now doing >20% more raw damage than before (Eye of the Storm is also doing a smidge more than before, but it's the region of ~20 damage so practically negligible). Whilst bumping the damage of one Single-Target attack won't have a huge impact on a Staff Tanker woodchippering their way through huge hordes of mooks; it might well be partially offsetting the negative impact of the "overcap damage reduction" whenever you're running regular missions. So I'm not surprised that your /Staff Tanker isn't quite as badly hit as a /Fire Tanker in your testing despite the fact that Staff possesses two cones (Guarded Spin and Innocuous Strikes) which were both very badly affected by the overcap damage nerf... (😢) Also FWIW; I've run some Brutes, Scrappers and VEATs through the same missions as my Tankers in order to double-check if the NPC Regeneration Buffs are slowing things down. They're not. The only noteworthy performance degradation I can see on those other ATs is related to specific powersets (Battle Axe and Radiation Armor). So it's 100% the Tanker Overcap changes that are the "problem" here. Speaking frankly, IMHO the proposed radius/arc changes (moving from a global Gauntlet buff --> individual Powers) by itself will sufficiently reduce "damage proc" performance to make a noteworthy difference to min-maxxed Procbombed AoE damage-orientated Tankers (whether they're used for farming or "Kill Most" runs!). However the proposed overcap damage reduction will hurt non-procbombed Tankers the most (which is becoming more + more evident as we gather more before/after clear time comparisons!) which is why I think the current overcap curves being employed on Brainstorm are far too steep. @Devs: Please don't penalise non-min-maxxed Tankers this harshly; they are not the problem. Either skip this "overcap" damage reduction change; or at most apply a flat reduction or lessen the curve (a flat -50% damage; or scaling -10%/-20% damage for AoEs/Cones would IMHO be the extreme upper end of what would be reasonable here!) if you want to reduce Tanker damage across the board rather than just the extreme outliers.

FWIW I tried running a few of my non-Tanker AFK Farmer builds (like my RadM/Stone Brute) through some of their usual AE maps on Brainstorm. The difference in kill speed is not noteworthy. There is however a major reduction in Tanker killspeeds, for both Active and AFK Farming. Proc activation chances in most AoEs and damage auras are lower than before, sure, but it's the diminishing returns in overcap damage that is really hurting the times compared to before. Only really bothersome for Active Farmers however, since AFK farmers were never pulling obscene inf/XP per hour anyway... and as I've mentioned previously IMO this really isn't going to impact AE Farmers much since it's quite possible to just switch to a different AT for Active Farming (Brute or Scrapper or VEAT or even a Dominator or Blaster!) if you're there to spam clicks + insps. Heck, if Bots/ hadn't had their damage nerfed a few pages ago then a MM would be a contender too.

The Tanker version of Staff's actually not too bad (for AoE damage output) on Live... my Bio/Staff is one of my favourite Tankers even... but unfortunately the proposed cone arc reduction and overcap damage nerfs on Brainstorm really hurt the performance of Guarded Spin and Innocuous Strikes. Sky Splitter got a somewhat noticeable damage buff though. It's definitely not a high ST DPA powerset, but the utility of Guarded Spin's +Defense buff plus the +Resistance buff from 3x-Perfection-of-Body + Sky Splitter is nice... and the -Resistance debuff from 3x-Perfection-of-Body + Eye of the Storm can be useful to stack on top of all the regular IO and Reactive Interface Procs.

Nope. Not even the earliest versions (circa 1909!) - they just have the names of various types of booze emblazoned on them. A bit like how Skittles don't actually contain the letter S. Plenty of sugar and artificial flavouring though. But none of that left-pondian high fructose corn syrup muck.

Look at the first set of charts (Pylon Test Results) and note how many if the listed chains contain "CP". If memory serves it's considerably more than half for all the ATs.

Cross Punch and Epic Blasts/Snipes both tended to be included in Ston's Single Target chains IIRC (the "Pylon" times) Not sure either was very relevant (if present at all) for their more general mission times e.g. Trapdoor or the mission simulator. I also don't recall Ston being involved in any Farming build compilations/leaderboards. That's more AmericasAngel's territory. "Active" Farming has indeed favoured RadArmor Tankers for years (the moar procbombed high-DPA AoE and PBAoEs hitting the moar targets the better!!) and yes, that's going to be changing. But most existing Farmers (including myself) largely won't care, and the folk that really like being bleeding edge will simply spend a few hours getting whatever new AT + Power set combo becomes king kitted out.

Can confirm that the Perfection Stack refreshing is working again now as of build #3. (And FWIW Eye of the Storm is still currently doing roughly ~20 damage more on Brainstorm than Live; so if they've bumped the damage it's unnoticeable on my Tanker)

Honestly most of the proposed changes (reduction in damage buff numbers, reduction in resistance debuff numbers, removal of radius global buff in favour of individual power radius buffs) are IMO comparatively fine and measured - they're effectively a tiny reduction in regular damage output (mainly due to reduced cone angles) with a bigger reduction in AoE proc damage output. But there is one change that I think is very harsh - the introduction of reduced damage for "overcap" targets. At present the proposed damage reduction is a very steep curve; and as a result the 10th target hit by an AoE (or the 5th target hit by a Cone) will take orders of magnitude more damage than the 16th (or the 10th). Whilst it still leaves Tankers better off than they were before their revamp several years ago, this is the change that will be causing severe reductions in Tanker mission clear times compared to Live (assuming that the Tanker in question tends to always keep a sufficiently high number of mobs around themselves instead of only fighting a few at a time!). IMO some level of reduced AoE damage is probably required as Tankers are currently streaks ahead of the rest of the melee AT pack for AoE mob clearing... and since they tend to do this by hitting more enemies than other ATs, reducing damage inflicted upon those additional enemies seems like a viable way to approach this... but I'd much prefer a flat reduction or a much more gentle curve (especially for Cones) than what's currently on Brainstorm.

There's also Reactive Regeneration which is mutually exclusive with Instant Healing (Regeneration). And IMO from an optimization POV it's hard to justify taking the latter.

If you're a Tanker (especially a RadArmor/BattleAxe!) who constantly herds more than 5-10 mobs and cares about kill speed... yep. If you're a Plant Control user then you might also need to duck and cover a bit. If you're a Regeneration Stalker then you may feel as if you're suddenly playing a completely different character than before. Everyone else? Nah.