Maelwys

The chain mechanic has one advantage over "regular" Cones/AoEs: it'll always "home in" on something that is still alive. That means if you're stacking up lots of AoEs; anything that hasn't died off to the alpha strike ends up being a valid target for a Chain power to chain to... so the additional chain effect's damage TENDS to not get "wasted". Unfortunately they've also got an utterly garbage Proc rate; since Chain powers are effectively a 360 degree AoE with a radius of [5ft x their TargetCap] under the hood. Meaning Chain Induction as a "True Chain" is now proccing as if it was a 25ft AoE... so it needs to be chaining to AT LEAST TWO secondary targets just to "break even" vs before.

Meh, just let it slot Set IOs and I'd be happy. I've got more than a few toons that'd free up a slot in Health if they could stick their Preventive Medicine Global in Rest.

FWIW, with 5x procs in Sleep Grenade, my Dominator typically sees an average of roughly one proc activation per target on the initial hit; and about half that again after 10s. (Under the hood it's a "20ft radius pseudopet" that gets two initial chances to proc per foe; plus an additional chance once every 10s for the SLOW SET PROCS ONLY) Which IMO isn't half bad for a CC ability; particularly considering each proc deals about 1.5x the power's base damage and it'll reliably hit 16 targets. However IMO treating Sleep Grenade purely as a "proc bomb" power is a waste; because it's got some useful CC and reasonable base damage (Controller damage is lower than Dominator but it'll reliably both set up and exploit containment) and it doesn't care about local recharge aspect. Sleep Grenade causes its effect via summoning an invisible pseudopet; and that psuedopet doesn't care about the recharge rate of the power itself. This is both a curse (SG has a far lower proc activation rate than you'd expect for a 45s base recharge AoE) and a blessing (you can ED-cap its recharge aspect and its proc rate stays the same). As an example: That's 3x procs, a Lv50+5 Dmg/Rech Ice Mistral, a Lv50+5 Acc/Dmg/Rech Bombardment and a Lv53 HO Dam/Rech... which on my Dominator gives a <13s recharge. Which works out at roughly the same average damage per activation as a Lv50+5 Acc/Dam/End IO + 5x procs; and much better damage over time. For comparison; Flash Bang procs more reliably (since it's not a pseudopet) but is available half as often and any procs in it get negatively impacted by local recharge aspect.

Sentinels don't get traditional damage auras because their offensive powerset is ranged and they lack any form of taunt to keep foes close by. The closest thing is Shocking Field. Which looks like a damage aura at first glance, but is really a ten second duration PBAoE DoT that happens to be a toggle. That's not to say there isn't "synergy" between various Sentinel powersets and playstyles though. For /Stone; Sentinels can lean into Brimstone Armor procs; just like any modern Stoner... and they lack Granite Armor in favour of the vastly more useful Geode. Terra Firma is a good one-slot-wonder power, but like all "need to be on the ground" powers it can get a bit wonky in practice due to geometry. However a few other sets (Seismic Blast, for example) have mechanics which benefit from you being on the ground too. Dark Blast probably has the most obvious synergy with SR (assuming you're using Life Drain). As for Rad Blast... I'd probably go /Psi. Also FWIW /Ninjitsu on Sentinels is completely overshadowed by /NRG and /SR for anything other than Shinobi-Iri Nuking; and that's currently on the chopping block.

Is is too a fallacy, because follow up grants chonky +ToHit just like Rage does; therefore if +ToHit was the sole factor in winning the scenario (as was originally being claimed) both their powersets would be taking the top spots on the leaderboard. But it isn't; and they're not. (Also Follow Up is affected by its own +ToHit and so cascades towards hitting; and even the regular builds are showing an attack hit rate before clamping of at least 111%. So they're hardly struggling to begin with!) IMO people are mad because they hate Rage's crash; and many feel that if the devs are going to spend time poking at it then they might as well make the crash go away entirely instead of attempting to make that crash less impactful to some at the expense of others (and/or doing the powers equivalent of drawing a mustache on it...) 🥸

The section of conversation you're quoting and responding to here is addressing a fallacy about -ToHit debuffs (namely, that Trapdoor was supposedly riddled with those debuffs to the point where they're causing cascade missing for anything that isn't getting a constant ~30% ToHit per Rage stack). If we're going back to talking about damage; yeah Trapdoor absolutely had lots of flaws even in the "original" format. And lots of things have also changed since Ston compiled that particular set of test results. Such as the recharge changes to epic blasts; Battleaxe rework; Tanker radius changes and 'overcap' damage reductions; etc. which makes it unhelpful for ballparking the current rankings... especially if we're just looking at "in-set" powers rather than an expanded chain that includes epics and such. However Ston's produced updated metrics on the Discord which specifically looks at the current performance of each powerset purely with just the in-set powers. So with everything-and-the-kitchen-sink procs in the mix; it looks like SS-with-Rage is sitting at 19th out of 23 and SS-with-Unleashed-Might has moved up to 14th out of 23. Which bodes well; even if it's not quite an indicator of "optimised attack chain" standings. Regarding Rage (to try to steer these ramblings back on track a bit)... I think it's safe to say that the direction the Devs have gone here with Unleashed Might is being well received... however the direction they're apparently going with Rage - trying to poke at its crash to make it more "equitable" across more characters whilst keeping it highly punitive - is considerably more controversial (⛔💩🕵️‍♂️). Suffice to say that the devs are very, very aware and I'd not be surprised if Rage eventually locks in looking slightly different (or even drastically different) compared to what it looks like right now. If they're intending to keep UM as a mutually exclusive option with Rage (which I do think is a good idea) then both UM and Rage need to be "viable" in slightly different ways. IMO Rage as a stackable click buff (especially one with a "crash") should be capable of spiking SS's performance higher than UM as a set-and-forget toggle buff... however whether or not that actually translates to SS-with-Rage being ranked higher than "middle of the road" whenever epics and other off-set powers are considered and/or whenever only in-powerset attacks are considered (as per the above table)? We'll see. I'll be watching that one closely.

They don't balance around inspiration use either FWIW, which is why emailing them to yourself and/or combining everything into reds can be OP in very specific circumstances.

Depends on the content; and the playstyle. For a "Mission Simulator" with a variety of mooks to AoE and Bosses/EBs to focus down? Traditional approach is to AoE the mooks and ST the Bosses: advantage to builds with a mixture of AoE and ST burst. An alternative would be to just stay at the aggro cap the entire time, and drag any leftover stuff with you between spawns. That's the approach I typically take when I'm on my Melee ATs as (to my mind) it's one of the draws of having Taunt effects. And if that's the case and you can reliably maintain full target saturation regardless of how many of them happen to be bosses; then keeping up an AoE attack chain is going to clear faster than mixing in ST blasts. At least until the targets get whittled down and you're left with an AV or a mission door/elevator/whatever staring you in the face. For SS? Sure, Burn's there if you opt for Fiery Aura and it procs like crazy now with the increased target cap. Cross Punch has been covered already (I personally still use it on my INV/SS because it's thematic rather than due to its DPA) and/or there are the Epics like Mu Mastery (AoEs) or Soul Mastery (for those who want a Hybrid approach with Gloom). FAAAR TOO MANY Farming runs have sold me on the notion that 3-4 attacks with a reliable FF Proc mule is the sweet spot for sustainable AoE DPA. Footstomp [with FF Proc] + Mu Mastery + Burn? Sold. (And Rage, as mentioned previously, is mainly there to lessen the negative performance tradeoffs by procbombing everything) UM is 100% better than Rage; providing you're leaning into SS attacks. And I consider that to be a good thing for Super Strength as a powerset.

Covered that. I 100% agree that "Dark obliteration buffed by rage isn't going to break any clear speed records." To be clear; I imagine Ston's setup of Dark Oblit + Gloom was probably intended as a happy medium for what was viewed back then as an "average mission" test. A more AoE-centric choice would've been Electrifying Fences and Ball Lightning; both of which have a base radius of 15ft and the latter of which has a target cap of 16. The hill I'm apparently dying on here is "Most of the Superstrength powerset's performance is so poor that you're actually better off by dumping everything except for Rage, KO Blow and Footstomp in favour of off-set powers; which Rage allows you to fill with damage procs with no loss in accuracy and minimal loss in damage (particularly on Brutes)."

You literally said "a benefit of Rage is its resistance to ToHit debuffs" and "Rage’s resistance to ToHit debuffs is too strong"... 😑 But OK. Moving on then... It's still slower. Your original claim which I've been disputing is: "SS was only high on [Ston's Trapdoor Time] list due to trapdoor tests that were loaded with -ToHit." However Claws is similarly "resistant to ToHit" (if having superfluous amounts of ToHit equates to being "resistant to Tohit debuffs")... yet it's coming in 4 places behind SS on the Brute times and 5 places behind it on the Tanker times. That is not what is being concluded by me. What is being concluded by me is: "it's not that "Superstrength with Rage" is OP vs Pylons or anything else regardless of how you choose to proc it. It's that "Superstrength with Rage" starts getting OP if you replace most of the SS set with specific stuff OUTSIDE of SS AND then put your foot on both the Damage Proc and Fury accelerator pedals. At least until everyone starts getting Fulcrum Shifted; which lets the other powersets catch up + overtake it." That was covered already in my first post on the subject. To recap: "whenever you SIX SLOT an AoE with procs, you forgo both Accuracy and Damage aspect slotting in that AoE. Rage's +ToHit buff makes accuracy aspect slotting irrelevant, and its +Damage buff significantly lessens the blow from forgoing damage aspect slotting. And Brutes care even less about damage aspect (due to Fury) than Tankers." But sure... I'll walk you through it: On the Tanker times; SS came in 3rd place, a little behind Savage Melee (with Fiery Melee well ahead of both). Martial Arts came in 6 seconds later. On the Brute times; SS came in 1st place, just in front of Savage Melee. The next-best set was 20s behind... and again it was Martial Arts. Savage Melee has access to multiple powerful in-set AoEs including a T9 "Nuke" and can slot multiple -res procs. Blood Thirst also lowers the recharge time of its own and off-powerset attacks. It comes as no surprise it would do well here. It's extremely weighted towards AoE damage output. Fiery Melee on Tankers has access to two powerful in-set 15ft radius AoEs and multiple -res procs. However on Brutes it only has access to a single in-set 10ft radius AoE so their AoE coverage plummets. Super Strength has access to precisely one AoE. Foot Stomp. And as I highlighted in that same first post: "Footstomp does too much damage for its Radius. Always has. The whole set is weighted around it...". Regardless of whether it's on a Brute or a Tanker, it's decent DPA and 15ft Radius. And it reliably activates FF +Rech procs. "Rage" as mentioned previously should be helping to shore up any lost accuracy and damage aspect from procbombing AoEs (with Brutes being less affected than Tankers by that lost damage aspect, due to Fury). Martial Arts also has only one AoE. But again it's a good one - Dragon's Tail is high DPA with a comparatively quick recharge cycle. And it reliably activates FF +rech procs. It does however have a slightly lower radius than the other sets' AoEs (8ft on Brutes, 12ft on Tankers). So we should be expecting Savage Melee to do well on both Tankers and Brutes; Fiery Melee to do well on Tankers but not on Brutes; Super Strength to do well on Tankers and very well on Brutes; and Martial Arts to do well on Tankers and rather well on Brutes. And that's exactly what happened. Also, it's probably worth pointing out that one of the changes since the testing took place resulted in Tanker AoE proc rate being lowered. AoE attacks on Tankers were previously getting their radiuses boosted by the global buff in Gauntlet (which didn't negatively impact PPM activation rate) whereas now they have a larger base value listed within each of the attacks themselves (which does lower the rate). Foot Stomp was one of the few attacks to be unaffected by this; because it's already sitting at the maximum 15ft radius. You do not need to run exhaustive testing if a claim is so basic as to be self evident and mathematically provable. (Rage + non-SS-powerset attacks) > (Build Up + non-SS-powerset attacks) Especially if those attacks are procbombed and you're making them on a Brute. Ergo, Rage is unbalanced whenever it comes to those off-set attacks. - - - - - - - - - - I'm honestly not trying to be difficult here. I'm trying to restate a position which is to me blatantly obvious but which you (to my knowledge) have so far not acknowledged as valid: Specific Powers within the Super Strength powerset stray outside of regular balance equations: Footstomp and Rage being the big offenders. Super Strength as a powerset is fine because the devs intentionally balanced the rest of its powers to cope with this state of affairs. Footstomp by itself has little-to-no potential to overly upset character balance; as it has no effect on other powers; the most it can do is cause a character to deal a slightly more damage over a wider area than they really should be capable of doing. Rage however does affect other powers; and it can increase the Hit Rate and Damage aspect of those powers well beyond what they were ever originally balanced for - especially when "double stacked". And the greater the number of powerful "non-SuperStrength" attacks a character takes and the more effort they put into relying on and mechanically exploiting those attacks for maximum damage output; the better off Rage will make those attacks. To the point where SuperStrength, when min-maxxed, can often entirely revolve around "Rage" affecting multiple non-Super-Strength powerset attacks; plus Footstomp (typically slotted with a FF +Rech proc to help keep everything else flowing). Therefore: (i) Rage is indeed currently "unbalanced". (ii) That's what is holding the devs back from buffing the rest of the attacks within the Super Strength Powerset. (iii) Any change the devs make to Rage's offensive performance is highly likely to result in a nerf to its current boost for those off-powerset attacks. You only have to look at the devs' currently proposed new approach (Unleashed Might) to see blatantly obvious evidence of (iii) at work. UM is intentionally boosting the damage of attacks within the Superstrength powerset by LOTS and the damage of attacks outside the SS powerset only by SOME.

It would indeed. It's been suggested before (including in my own posts!) and yes, -ToHit would limit proc damage during the Rage crash. It'd also limit "Punchvoke" taunting though for any powers that require a hit check (like most attacks and damage auras) and a few mitigation abilities (Dark Regeneration, for example. .. and Knockdowns/Mez/etc). There's existing tech out there though that can limit effects to specific enhancement inheritance; so it should be possible (if perhaps tricky) to restrict a -ToHit debuff crash to only powers that take damage aspect slotting.

Rage doesn't provide any ToHit Debuff Resistance. It simply gives +20% ToHit per stack: +20% ToHit (self only) for 120s You may be thinking of another power like Focussed Accuracy with its +86.5% Resistance (ToHit) (all affected targets). It'll have differed from set to set and from debuff to debuff. If you bother to look at the builds; you'll note their layouts are very similar and they all run Kismet and Tactics plus a Decimation in Gloom and a Gaussian in Build Up/Rage. However WITHOUT Build Up or Rage or the Decimation procs active, a standard AoE like Dark Obliteration sits at around 111% ToHit before clamping vs the intended +4s. The upshot is they can all eat at least one stack of -7.5% ToHit from a +4 Council mob (e.g. Gloom) and still be capable of reaching 95% hit Rate. Rage allows the SS build another ~3 hits. The difference isn't overly noteworthy if you're encountering cascading effects. Heck, the Claws build was the same PLUS a Gaussian in Follow Up and they came in consistently nearly half a minute slower. Alternatively; you could take the test for what it was intended to be: a depiction of how you can expect various builds to perform against large groups of enemies that include Elite Boss *and a wide variety of debuffs*. Again, Rage does not grant the user resistance to ToHit debuffs. I'm not sure where the heck you're getting that from. The raw +ToHit buff it grants is however absolutely a large part of the benefit of Rage. I've pointed out multiple times that it allows easier procbombing since you don't have to worry about accuracy aspect slotting. It only ever stops being relevant when fighting even-level foes or lower; or when you're getting high levels of allied buffage. We can take enemy debuffs completely out of the equation (see the AE farming thread mentioned above) and the results are the same - Rage's +ToHit and +Damage allows those same multiple Procbombed AoEs to hit well above their weight class. Especially on a Brute (since Fury, as mentioned earlier, counters the loss of slotted damage aspect). An appropriate conclusion is therefore not exactly difficult to draw. Rage is fine if you're leaning into powers and effects within the Superstrength powerset. Rage is not fine if you're leaning into powers and effects outside of the Superstrength powerset. The latter should be obvious as well as evident - the performance of the attacks within the Superstrength powerset are artificially balanced around Rage. That's why the devs haven't just blanket buffed them (it took the new Unleashed Might mechanic which is mutually exclusive with Rage to tweak their base damage and effects). However the same is not true for attacks outside of the Superstrength powerset - THOSE are available to everyone, not just SS users, so their performance cannot be balanced around Rage. Whenever you add Rage's buff to them their performance becomes potentially unbalanced... especially if you throw other potentially unbalancing things at them simultaneously such as multiple Damage Procs and Capped Fury. The limiting factor is that if you're taking SS there are only a certain number of "good" AoEs outside of it that can be loaded up with procs and bumped higher with Fury. So it's very build dependent. But if you're, say, a SS/FA Brute with the Mu or Soul Patron? Your achievable damage ceiling will absolutely be getting drastically elevated via Rage.

There were certainly -ToHit debuffs (and -Rech and many others) being thrown around from all the Council and Arachnos... but that was intentional to provide a "wide variety of stuff to deal with". IIRC the main complaints about the "original" Trapdoor mission being used as a yardstick was that it unfairly favoured AoE damage, it was more favourable towards smashing/lethal damage than most PVE is (since most of the tougher mobs within it had no noteworthy resistances... the Wolf Bosses were the "worst" AFAIK) and the Spawn compositions were rather inconsistent. The thread I linked to specifically states "All attacks had a 95% chance to hit" (if you check the builds all the sets are sitting at or above that threshold + in practice many of them upon encountering significant levels of ToHit debuffery could counter at least temporarily via hitting Build Up). In practice, outside of Four Star content I always aim for "95% Hit Rate whenever the enemy has no other buffs/debuffs in play" whenever I'm building to cap a character's accuracy vs a specific mob level. That's the approach I took when rejigging all my active characters for fighting against the new Lv55s (+4)... which Rage ABSOLUTELY gives you an easier job of hitting than Unleashed Might does. ((Also it's not just Ston's Trapdoor tests that show this out - any form of large mob clearing activity tends to favour builds with multiple Procbombed AoEs that are propped up by crazy levels of global accuracy and global recharge and/or FF-procs. The only reason SS doesn't feature very much in the AE farming thread is that whenever you don't particularly care about balanced survivability; after a certain point it becomes more efficient to combine all your insps into reds and cap your own damage without having to put up with a Rage Crash... but for a good while they were recommending a Rad/SS Tanker!))

It depends. Superstrength, as a powerset, is pretty much held together by Footstomp, KO Blow and Rage. Footstomp does too much damage for its Radius. Always has. The whole set is weighted around it... KO Blow is high DPA and can take not one but two Purple damage procs (and ED-capped recharge aspect without sacrificing their activation rate) Rage is stackable +Damage and +ToHit; as we're all well aware of here. Now take those three powers; chuck everything else in the set away (aside from maybe Taunt) and fill in the rest with high-DPA Epic abilities (and maybe Cross Punch). Epic abilities don't really lend themselves to a hefty Single Target damage chain; so SS was never a top tier platform vs Pylons. But it WAS for general mob clearing. Mu pool gives you two procable AoEs in Elec Fences and Ball Lightning. Add Footstomp with a FF +Rech proc and a FotG -res. Throw in Rage for both +Damage and +ToHit. That last bit is important, because whenever you SIX SLOT an AoE with procs, you forgo both Accuracy and Damage aspect slotting in that AoE. Rage's +ToHit buff makes accuracy aspect slotting irrelevant, and its +Damage buff significantly lessens the blow from forgoing damage aspect slotting. And Brutes care even less about damage aspect (due to Fury) than Tankers. That's why threads like Ston's original melee powerset testing had SS firmly in the top spot for Brutes and near top for Tankers whenever Epic blasts and CP were permitted as "fillers" in the mob clearing leaderboards (e.g. Trapdoor). So it's not that "Superstrength with Rage" is OP vs Pylons or anything else regardless of how you choose to proc it. It's that "Superstrength with Rage" starts getting OP if you replace most of the SS set with specific stuff OUTSIDE of SS AND then put your foot on both the Damage Proc and Fury accelerator pedals. At least until everyone starts getting Fulcrum Shifted; which lets the other powersets catch up + overtake it.

Punch is my Winter Set Mule. Haymaker typically gets filled with one of the "lesser" ATO sets (read: SGF on Tankers) or Hecatombs if I really don't need 'em. KO Blow gets substantial recharge aspect and *at least* the Unbreakable Constraint and the Hecatomb Procs. Footstomp and Handclap and Cross Punch all get frankenslotted with at least three procs each. Depending on the defensive powerset I might go after the Eradication 3-piece set bonus and/or FoTG 2-piece set bonus. Handclap's getting my FotG -res these days on OB since it gives better coverage than Cross Punch. I do tend to mostly stick within the set with SS though, despite how easy Rage makes leveraging procbombed Gloom+DarkObliteration or ElecFences+BallLightning. 🤷‍♂️

IMO it really comes down to: Haymaker, Hand Clap, Cross Punch; pick any two. ((KO Blow and Footstomp are a given, obvs)) Lose Jab and Punch. Only pick up Boxing and Kick if you have spare power slots and *really* wanna max out Cross Punch's damage.

I can't shake the nagging feeling that if I can just arrange 3 or more of the same icon vertically they'll wink out of existence and I'll gain 100 inf plus extra for "combos"...

I suggest adding a "B" at the start of his name, and changing his skin colouration to green. And perhaps stacking some Resistance (ethanol).

Nah. I likes being able to tell at a glance whenever half my Fulcrum Shift stacks (for example) are about to drop off. Also it'd only be 1/4th of the space if it STOPPED AT TEN STACKS LIKE IT WAS SUPPOSED TO DAMMIT

TBF I'd happily take Hurl if they just allowed it to target allies. YEET! (i) Apply Mag 1000 Knockup (unresistable) to the selected target. (ii) After 0.5s teleport them to a point you choose within range. Bonus points if they do the "Lightning Rod" animation pose and/or inflict any AoE damage or knockback upon landing. And if there are too many moans on the forums about "unfair treatment of vertically-challenged teammates" it could even be tweaked so that possessing any abilities that have >Mag 1 KB but no KB>KD conversion in them makes you a valid target. That's only fair. Equality for all! 🎺 🎏 🏆

Or alternatively; as has been discussed at great length previously, they could balance the crash around something other than a short-term survivability deficit. Like -Damage (Check!). -ToHit. -MovementSpeed. -Recovery. Heck, it could even grant a temporary buff to your attacks so whatever you punch gets tougher. The main reason Rage's crash impacts the player's survivability is because it's always historically done so; rather than as a direct result of any balance costing equations. (Yes, you could bypass the crash on Live by activating rage again before it wore off. But the crash still technically existed hence the claim "it's always been there")

I don't mind multiples if it shows the correct duration, in fact I prefer it since I can tell at a glance if I've reached the stacking limit or not of a given buff. For Consume I'd probably prefer a single icon with a "1-10" counter on it that flashed whenever it was due to expire... but if that's not feasible I'd like the current smattering of stacked icons to reflect the real remaining duration by not flashing until they're actually due to wear off... 🙂 There are a few different built-in options for handling how your client UI normally displays multiple copies of the same buff, yes. it's under "Icon Stacking" here. "Default" shows them half-overlapping. "No Stacking" shows them beside each other with no overlap. "Numeric" shows the number of currently active buffs and is closest to being "useful" for Consume... but at present the current value is not updating correctly. The older stack icons aren't being updated/overwritten properly within the UI. (The maximum number of active stacks is 10 so my Brute does not have 16 active stacks here; nor do they have 17 in the above "No Stacking" screenshot!)

I've poked at Consume a bit more. I'm really liking the +MaxHP mechanic; and I've changed my mind about slotting healing aspect in it. In fact I've reworked my Brute's build a fair bit to be able to squeeze 2xLv50+5 Heal IOs into Consume. Without any healing aspect it's giving my Brute +481 MaxHP with 10 stacks active. With 2xLv50+5 Healing IOs that rises to +944 MaxHP. In practice said Brute is able to get and maintain a MaxHP of 3107 on OB; which is almost exactly an extra 900HP compared to Live's 2209. That's massive. However please fix the buff icon flashing. At present it appears that activating Consume will successfully add to and refresh the duration of any previous MaxHP stacks; but that new duration isn't updating properly on those previous stacks' original buff icons within your active effects display. So it becomes almost impossible to tell whenever the current set of Consume's MaxHP stacks are actually about to wear off because you end up with buckets of identical icons all flashing at you constantly.

What Uun said, Open your combat tab and turn on the pet related damage and hit roll categories.

Incarnate Content is effectively untouched. Including hit rate and proc damage. They were focusing here on regular non-Incarnate content.