megaericzero

For the placate portion, single-target. We're just looking to recreate Pacify in some capacity. For the taunt portion, I'm confused. Assuming KB2KD reduces mag, we just crank taunt down to either 0.01 or 0.00 depending on which is possible. If it can't be true zero, there's still concern that any nonzero value would still accidentally taunt the target since mobs don't ubiquitously have any taunt protection, so for that we apply another "anti-enhancement" to floor the duration of the taunt. Alternatively, if KB2KD doesn't reduce mag but instead reduces distance - and assuming that that's considered the equivalent to other mezzes' duration, we set the taunt to 0.01s duration. After that, we have the placate apply after some arbitrary delay so it activates after the taunt wore off. EDIT: Wait... can PROCs have a delay or do they all activate the instant the power rolls the dice? But, also, is there something wrong with like 1ms taunt overlapping placate? Does it cancel the placate? -- EDIT 2: Oh god I didn't think about taunt auras! Forget Blazing Aura or Mud Pots - they'll just nix it by doing damage - but having Invincibility, Rise to the Challenge, or Against All Odds periodically roll placate on nearby foes. I'm both concerned and morbidly curious. And Stalkers would ironically miss out since they can't have taunt auras.

So we... use it to reduce the taunt to 0.01 magnitude? Right. You would reduce the taunt and add a placate PROC. Unless you're saying an enhancement can't have two unique effects because coding reasons, which is fair. Last I remember, though, at least one of the KB2KD is "knockback to knockdown AND adds knockdown if the power doesn't have it." On a different note, I genuinely appreciate the discussion - Luminara, Rudra, FupDup, Super Atom, Snarky. Even though I'm arguing some, I still think it's as a constructive back-and-forth.

Okay, I'll be clearer because I missed in in trying to get us on the same page again: it's not even a high hit percent / chance to occur anymore. It's just average. There's still a legitimate chance to miss. inb4 "but then it's useless" because only the extremes apply Genuinely curious how KB2KD works. My best guess is that it floors the knockback distance aspect. In our placate PROC, we could try reducing the magnitude or duration to such insanely low levels that it's only active for a single frame. We're approaching or crossing SCR territory by this point, though.

I think you and I, specifically, need to get our bearings again. Based on what was discussed so far - and I'll update the OP to reflect this in a moment: For simplicity's sake, we're removing both Pacify and Provoke. We're putting Challenge back into the set at tier 1. (We're ignoring the fears and hypothetical confuse right now.) We then add two PROCs - one that adds a taunt AOE so Challenge can become Provoke or Confront can become pseudo-Taunt, one that removes taunt and adds placate so that Challenge and Confront can become Pacify. Neither effect is autohit anymore - that'll be one of the trade-offs for being dollar-store alternatives to Taunt and Placate. The taunt AOE PROC (and probably the placate PROC) apply a huge -recharge enhancement to the power they're slotted in, which further changes Challenge/Confront into Provoke/Pacify. Yes, it is possible with this current iteration for a person to accidentally or purposely nerf their Taunt or Placate by slotting one of those PROCs without reading what they do. Brute Taunt is still autohit on the AOE portion. (Also it's not my intent, though it is an unintended side effect. What's the difference? Intent would be malicious and deliberate, neither of which I was trying to be.)

That was actually exactly what I had in mind when mulling over potential recharge reduction - the IO would give it the AOE taunt proc but also come with a -howevermany% recharge "enhancement" to that power, forcing Confront to "become" Taunt so to speak. As to the accuracy/PPM, I was originally looking to assuage the concern that Confront was autohit and not maxing the PROC to match would be detrimental but, as I mulled over in one of the prior posts, that could be another balancing factor is that the AOE portion could still miss. The devil is in the details.

Which, since it can only be slotted in powers that accept confuse sets, achieves the goal. Unless we want to get into the nitty gritty of it having independent values on chance, magnitude, duration, being able to double on things that are already AOE, etc. I'm of the opinion that the largest problems for Brutes are the Tanker damage buff and Fury itself not being standout enough to separate them from Scrappers in either burst or sustain which, yeah, can cause them to be watered down to Scrappers who gave up crits to have Tanker health caps - not even tanker or median values - and worse damage multipliers. But, again, I'll leave the larger discussion for that thread. I'm normally an advocate or at least neutral on the cottage rule. I'm not a staunch believer that it's forbidden to use a method you disliked the result of to reverse the result, though. Plus, I do think FupDup touched on something in mentioning the Presence pool. Assuming it's not a bug, that sounds like a different discussion to have on the devs A) going overboard for fear Possess was too powerful for Blasters/Masterminds instead of just not giving it to them and B) obfuscating that information at least a little by not disclosing it in the description text. I'm not saying we can't discuss that; just that it sounds like an outlier rather than just assuming it's the baseline for future stuff. I don't disagree it's a dick move, by the way. That's why I went to the effort of suggesting a way to get it back via IOs. I don't know how cherished Pacify is but I'm hoping it's not "absolutely must six slot to max-out the actual placate effect", whereas it would still be as good of a mule as it currently is since "threat" now covers both placate and taunt.

You and I see it every differently. I see it as pretty much indistinguishable from mere lip service to a nerf rather than a legitimate nerf. Otherwise, see the response about keeping Provoke and adding an(other) IO set to make "AOE taunt into single target." Skipping the Brute debate since there's already an active thread about that currently. I did mention I have strong concerns about Confront specifically because of its recharge time and how to potentially address that. I'll bite on the "how" because I already thought about that: Coercive Persuasion can already apply AOE confuse by PROC (or accuracy check?). While the enhancement is presented as "ST taunt to AOE taunt," mechanically we can make it whatever Coercive Persuasion is - but for taunt - and just crank its chance/accuracy as high as possible. If it's an accuracy check, it would still have a chance to miss in Confront but that is probably a positive for balance reasons.

Were Challenge and Provoke the same in every way - magnitude, duration, etc. - except one was AOE? Genuine question. I never checked the numbers back then and COD doesn't have its info as far as I'm aware. See but that's part of the suggestion so... I'm gonna say "a theoretical enhancement from a set that does not exist to change a taunt to a pacify that [...]" The suggestion wasn't "and/or" - it was a concrete "and". If the latter is not possible, 100% nix the former. I understand it's a nerf in the form of slot taxing what is currently a base function of the power. If it makes it any better, we can inverse it - keep Provoke AOE but make an "aoe taunt to single target" IO but then Scrappers lose the functionality for Confront to become like Taunt, or else also having "ST taunt to AOE" is only useful for Confront. The reason I did it the way I did in the OP were: * people complaining about having to take taunt or placate to reach ST fear * people complaining about having to take taunt + placate or something + ST fear to get AOE fear * giving people the option to have Challenge again, for those who want to be able to taunt but don't want to taunt the entire group

I had completely forgotten about Misdirection. Maybe in a world where the Stealth was made as good as it is now but Invisibility hadn't been made Infiltration, there would have been room to put Pacify there. But that would still constitute removing a power which: Oof. Fair point. Tell that to Challenge, which Pacify very specifically did that exact thing to.

I'm still not quite sure what you mean by nerfing Provoke, though. It already doesn't get the auto-hit or range debuff benefits that Confront and Taunt do. Neither did Challenge back in the day, as far as I'm aware. Turning Provoke into single-target and adjusting its duration/recharge ratio would just make it Challenge. It is a nerf but largely inasmuch as taking out a component (being AOE) and then selling that component back as an enhancement slot tax. I was presenting this as an alternative to merging Pacify and Provoke. It would instead see the fear power (whichever name you want to go with - Intimidate or Invoke Panic) being single-target and selling its AOE component back as an IO. Again, a nerf inasmuch as a slot tax. I only suggested it because I foresaw pushback that two unique powers - a taunt and a placate - were being forced together instead of consolidating arguably redundant fears.

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't necessarily see AOE taunt as objectively superior to single-target. Tangentially, I do have concerns about Confront spam now that I think about it, since that thing recharges super fast as a trade-off for being single-target. Maybe the taunt-to-placate IO would need an extra cost, like debuffing recharge time on its slotted power. Brain fart/typo. Fixed in the OP.

Of course, number tweaking would be involved. I did also recognize that Challenge used to be part of this pool, so if the changes are so substantial that it should be renamed/replaced back to that power, by all means. Definitely don't just remove the AOE component, nerfing it. I'll edit that into the OP. *shrug* Flip-flopping it is also possible, but I'm sure the same will be said about Provoke, or any power. I did say the same about Intimidate in a prior thread when someone presented Invoke Panic as the "superior" version that the other should be nixed for.

Hello, everyone. Bit of a slow Saturday at work. I'll be honest: I didn't think about this idea more than a few minutes so I'm fully prepared to hear how half-baked / unworkable it is. The idea was twofold: 1) try and accommodate the people who want Presence reworked 2) integrate the use of IOs to help with the changes to Presence while also expanding the precedence of IOs giving options to slightly alter effects at the cost of a slot (eg: KB2KD) What I'm attempting to tackle: (these are not my feelings; rather, what I heard other people say in past threads about Presence) Pacify and Provoke are in direct opposition to each other, so there's never a time you'd want to take both Given the above, you have to take Intimidate to access its own AOE version (Invoke Panic) or Unrelenting The Presence pool should incorporate a confuse effect somewhere With that in mind... PRESENCE POOL CHANGES remove Pacify and Provoke turn Provoke into single-target and rework its numbers (rech, duration, etc.) add Challenge back to the pool at tier 1 shift Provoke, Intimidate and Invoke Panic up a tier each (Intimidate now no longer requires a prior power pick; Invoke Panic only requires one prior power pick) add Confuddle - a single-target confuse - at tier 4 (requiring two prior power picks; can be made partly AOE with Coercive Persuasion) For those better served with a visual aid, the power table would change to this: Challenge Intimidate Invoke Panic Confuddle Unrelenting NEW INVENTION ENHANCEMENTS Group Insult, a low-level set (10-20) whose final enhancement changes single-target taunt to AOE taunt with the tradeoff of applying a -recharge enhancement, causing the power it's slotted in to recharge slower (turns Challenge back into Provoke; can also be slotted by Scrappers to turn Confront into Provoke+) Failed Mockery, a mid-level set (25-40) whose final enhancement changes taunt into placate and is unique so only one can be slotted per build, and similar tradeoff of increasing its slotted power's recharge time (effectively turns Challenge or Confront into Pacify) Unforgivable Insolence, a high-level set (40+) whose final enhancement makes taunt/placate auto-hit and is unique so only one can be slotted per build (turns Provoke into Challenge; unfortunately, I don't think there's a way to get it to recognize the other two enhancements to make the other two PROC effects auto hit but that was originally the intent before further discussion on why that's bad anyway) (okay this one was a bad idea) Alternatively, we could change Intimidate to a single-target (brain fart) remove Intimidate and make Invoke Panic single-target with tweaked values (second brain fart) remove Invoke Panic instead of Pacify and Provoke, and add an IO that changes single-target fear to AOE. I figured tackling the taunt/placate dichotomy was less disruptive, since fear is more wide-spread which may cause horrible unexpected consequences. I haven't thought about things in-depth like how Confront recharging so quickly with the ST-to-AOE might let Scrappers accidentally step on Tankers'/Brutes' toes by rapid-stacking it. If it works out, this could be the precedence for more "sacrifice a slot for a unique/modified effect" type IOs. Anyway, that's the idea. Happy holidays, everyone.

There's a breaking point (on certain resolutions?) where the game erroneously detects it no longer needs that scrollbar when it actually does. It removes it and then you have to use your enhancement tray slots as a holding area to access the last row or two of unassigned enhancements.

What would be the reason/goal for the event?