csr

Of COURSE it's tainted the entire pizza. SMH

Pineapples are the new anchovies. Neither belongs on a pizza unless the chooser is going to be the only one eating it.

I started playing an SS Tanker just over 15 years ago. To me the crash simply belongs there. And with the current situation your comparing using something you may or may not have to using a little patience and attentiveness to not click the power too soon. Honestly though, the farmers are probably gobbling all the reds they have anyway, so that stacked Rage advantage is actually less than advertised. To summarize my position: I'm OK with the way Rage is on live except for the imbalance of the -Def debuff. So this version on Pineapple is pretty close to what I would do myself. I don't think that stackable Rage is really all that and a bag of chips, so I wouldn't mind all that much if it went away. I just find catering to those too lazy to take Rage off auto-fire annoying. I can get crashless Rage with this change if I want it by exercising a tiny bit of patience and attentiveness. If we're doing single stack Rage then let's get rid of the click altogether and make it a toggle with an END cost chosen to make most people want to 2 slot it with EndRdx (say 0.4-0.52 E/s). Rage should probably be renamed to something that doesn't mean "uncontrolled anger", especially if there is to be no crash.

Your right, I should have been using a 68.68s cycle instead of 58.68s. I also thought the floor was 10% of base. I simply ignored it as unimportant given the error bars on the numbers being tossed about. Again, you've used a different stat than I would. This started as a discussion about the advantage of stackable Rage to min-maxers. So for the purposes of that discussion I would compare double Rage to single, not to no Rage at all. That is, just how much value are the so-called min-maxers getting out of stackable Rage? Using that stat your first test would be a 154.58% / 134.14% - 1 = 15.2% increase over single Rage. Very close to the 14.5% I calculated from your previous numbers and theory, even with the mistake. The second one shows just an 8.9% increase (140.27% / 128.85% - 1). I still consider these builds outliers and those numbers very close to the optimal best. And I will reiterate that in my opinion, outside of farming that level of buff isn't really a big deal. And even in farms it's probably about a 10% increase in INF earnings. So while that's significant, I don't think it makes stackable Rage a crazily OP thing like, say, Brutes in general. Now, double stacking without a crash would be a different story.

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Yeah, Brutes really need a buff. (That's sardonicism, in case anyone thought I was serious.) The END boost was given with the idea that Tankers take longer to kill stuff than Brutes and so use more END. This is particularly true at lower levels and in solo play. I see it more of a sop to help get people past the doldrums of leveling a Tanker.

Because the latter is the status quo, while the former is a significant change. EDIT: Besides, to me, the use friendliness is pretty minor. I can manage when to click Rage without any major thought or effort. So I find it a trivial QoL improvement at a real loss of choice and flexibility. Also, what are you doing now to avoid the crash? Not use Rage at all?

I don't think there is an easy any way to make the power only ignore buffs from others (as opposed to all buffs). Not that this is in any way a good idea. It's one set of players with a particular play style (wanting to auto-fire Rage) trying to get that catered to at a cost to everyone else. I also don't get the thinking of this whole line of reasoning. It's almost as if there are those that think that Rage comes with an auto-fire on it that can't be turned off. In reality, what's on test are two changes: The crash mitigation debuff is now split between Def and Res instead of all Def You can avoid the crash by not stacking Rage The first is a balance issue, the second a straight buff. Single Rage v stackable crashing Rage is a legitimate discussion, but the idea that this change somehow makes getting +Rech from others worse is non-sense. You will be no worse off with (2) from above than what is on live. It seems a bit petty to me to want to avoid clicking a power every 2 minutes so much that you are willing to force everyone who doesn't share your preferences to lose a power buff.

The best I could come up with was "Ferocity". A synonym of Rage, but with a more neutral connotation. Even if they keep the crash a name change to something like "Draw Upon Might" or "Buckle Up Buttercup" might be in order.

What you've calculated is how much you've improved Rage and another 38.5% buff by double stacking, not your DPS improvement. To perma double stack Rage you need it to recharge in 58.68s (one half the 120s buff duration minus the ArcanaTime Cast of 1.32s). That's 240/58.68 = 409% total recharge. Meaning 309% total +Rech. Let's assume perma-Hasten and drop that to a rounded 240%. That means you need something along the lines of fully recharge slotted Rage plus Spiritual or Agility Incarnate and another 125% or so global recharge to perma double stack Rage. If you're using Musculature (or another Alpha that doesn't buff Recharge) instead you need more along the lines of 140% global recharge. That's 5 LotGs, 5 Purple sets and another 52.5%. That's a huge investment. And with that you calculated a 41% improvement of your damage buff. Let's look at the DPS improvement now. Say you have perma double stack, 313.5% Damage from slotting (I've assumed Musculature is nowhere to be seen), the initial Rage stack, and the other 38.5% buff. So by stacking you're getting 11/12ths 78% as a buff (you lose some value to the 1.32s cast every 60s instead of every 120s), but you're losing 1/12th of 313.5% from the crash. That's about 45% of base damage gained. Or about a 14.5% DPS increase since you were doing 313.5% with a single stack. That's pretty significant, but it's also for an extreme case that shows double stacking Rage in its best light with a billion-plus INF build and at least T3 Alpha. At that point in a toon's life, you are likely either farming or on large teams running TFs and Trials. An increased DPS in the latter context probably isn't significant In the former? You can clear a map in about 87% the time a single stacker would. Given some setup and recycle time, you're probably earning about 10% more INF.

Maybe the "crash" of Rage is that when it wears off everyone on your aggro list gets it.

0.8 to 0.95. I forgot to factor that in. So, no, they didn't get new DS calculated. By my calcs Pendulum should be doing 117.47 and Crowd Control 100.11 with their new arcs (about 17% more damage each).

Let's see... Pendulum - Yes. Upped from 84.53 Live to 100.38 on Pineapple (per the character creation detailed info). It only has a 10 target cap (up from 5). Crowd Control - Yes. Upped from 71.63 Live to 85.55 on Pineapple.

I don't think they are. As the min-maxers would likely be arguing for the crashless Rage (some want the bugged, no -Def crash, stackable Rage back, but the devs clearly aren't listening to them). Double stacking Rage with the crash isn't really much of a bonus. Especially for Brutes. Even a solo Brute is often running at 350% Base damage with one stack of Rage. Let's say we have an Incarnate Brute that solos at 400% damage with a 60s double stack. So, he does 480% damage for 60s (half the time), 0 for 10s and then 400% for 50s. Net average 407%, up from the 400% from single stacked Rage and a 2% DPS buff at the cost of crash every 120s that hits Def/Res fairly hard. For a more pedestrian Tanker build such as my Ice/SS I have 48s stacked and run at around 280% with one stack. I gain 32% from the 40% up time double stack, and lose 23% to the crash for a 9% bonus off base and measly 3% buff to DPS for having that crash. The break even stack for such a Tanker on the DPS would be 35s. Anything less than that and my Tanker would actually be losing DPS by stacking Rage. Either version works for me, but I think a power called "Rage" should have a down-side (the primary definition is "violent uncontrollable anger"). Perhaps losing the crash should come with a rename. I also believe that having the choice, since it's a click, to avoid the crash if you want to means that the unstackable version's benefit is that people don't have to pay attention to when they click it, and nothing more. I'll take the more versatile version over the lazy version any time.

I made a new SS Brute today and tested at level 30 with sub perma Rage and was NOT getting the single stack crash.

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing the cap go up to 20, or even 25. The only down side is for those off-tanks counting on only getting a 17-foe alpha (my DP/SR Sentinel, for example). However, it would hurt teams relying on control for their alpha mitigation.

I think the Sentinel version of EA would work better for Tankers and could be ported unchanged (the AT increases would happen automatically). I like the idea of Tankers and Brutes having slightly different versions to help restore more AT differentiation in a small way. I also think the Sentinel version of Regen would work better - but Instant Regeneration might well be OP'ed on a Tanker and the power order would need to be adjusted. Say, dropping IR to 7 and bumping Dismiss Pain, Integration and Resilience all up a spot. Come on Captain Powerhouse, these are both quick changes that could be put on test for a look see, right?

I'd love to see at least the Energy Melee changes included for Tankers and Brutes in this patch (since it is a Tank patch).

I hope we're going to get notes in powers that are excepted from this rule stating that it doesn't apply. The obscurity of figuring out what gets the buff and what doesn't is a bit troubling. I would also reword the "Most Tanker AoE powers now extend to inflict damage and other effects beyond their radius or arcs" to "Most Tanker AoE powers now have their arcs or radii extended by Gauntlet" or something to that effect.

Roughly the same amount against even level foes, the buff is more substantial against higher level foes as Bruise's effect is reduced by the Purple Patch. Also, the Bruise attack itself does more damage. And you can optimize your chain without Bruise. So, Tanker damage output on AoEs has been increased dramatically, sustained ST damage against higher level foes has been increased some and burst ST damage has also gone up a bit.

So, you meant "without stacking" rather than "while stacking" as I thought. Extending the duration doesn't have much value. If you don't have it perma, it does little. For Hasten users, I can see getting buff duration while Hasten is up, which then spans the gap to Hasten recharging, but that's about it and requires near perma anyway. So while it could smooth things for the few with it near perma and having Hasten, once you have it perma the only thing added Recharge would effectively do is increase your END use, as, since the buff would never expire anyway, the extension is irrelevant. Personally, I prefer what's on Pineapple. And I like what's on live about as much as this.

What does a "single buff [...] while stacking" mean? In the context of what others have been saying, that's a contradiction. The rest of what you say seems to imply you mean "without" stacking.

I agree with this. The one change that I would absolutely NOT want is Rage becoming Build Up. In fact, among the options discussed, I'd take what CP has on the table over the alternatives. I'd rather have more differences and more circumstances that can be leveraged (as stacked Rage and crash mitigation does), rather than more of the same.

The change isn't balanced, because it also doesn't hit Absorption, Regen or Healing. So some sets still do better than others. It is more balanced than it was though. For clarity on Defense being hurt worse. Let's say you have 50% Def (most build for a bit over the cap to deal with debuffs) and 20% Res. You take about 4% of all damage directed your way by even level foes with no Acc or ToHit bonuses (I've ignored streakbreaker for simplicity). A build with 100% Res and 10% Def takes the same 4% or so. With the old crash the first would take 16% and the latter 6%. A 300% increase compared to just 50%. With the new crash the Def build now takes 10% of incoming damage and the Res build 10%. Both seeing a 150% increase in damage taken. Just to throw out a less edge-case example, let's take a Brute with 50% Res and 25% Def. This Brute would currently go from 12.5% of incoming damage to 22.5%. With the change they'd go up to 24.5%. If the latter Brute were making up for taking 3 times the damage as the previous two with 3 times the Regen/Healing, then she'd actually still be better off, as her Regen/Healing would still be working at full strength. I use a mitigation index metric, which is basically just Regen divided by the percent of incoming that I calculated above. So if we have two whose Regen factor is 1 divided by 4% they have indices of 25. While this third example is at 24 because I stuck to round numbers (3 divided by 12.5%). The three with the old crash drop to 6.25, 16.7 and 13.3 respectively. Under the new crash the indices are 10, 10 and 12.2. Anyway, those are just three quick cases. The crash is more balanced. It could be more balanced still if there is some clever way to essentially debuff HP/Regen/Heal/Absorb all based upon current HP. But I think you'd end up having to debuff off base HP, which would require some balance tweaking to get the amount where you wanted it, and probably leave those with HP buffs ahead on points, so to speak.

I'm getting the same results. Rage always crashes, regardless of whether or not it's stacked.