Dispari

Just a quick one, but WAWG was increased from a 10 foot radius to a 25 foot radius. That's an area increase from 314 to 1962. The target cap was also raised from 10 to 16. This puts it pretty close to actual mez set AoE immobilizes, which have a 30 foot radius. Visualized, the difference is: Old version, targeting this Shocker but it not being wide enough to hit the Troll top right. New version, targeting the Grenadier and getting everyone but the security guard top right.

If I'm understanding correctly, the ATO simply has a proc that puts you in Hide status so that you can get an extra crit in. The ATO has always had the "cancel on damage" flag, but it was broken until recently. The net result is the ATO proccing gave you a 10 second window of hidden that cannot be broken, so you can get your free crit (the point of the proc). A consequence of fixing the "cancel on damage" flag means this ATO is now significantly worse, and the proc can go off and leave you with nothing if you are unhidden early. Basically the "cancel on damage" flag should be removed from the ATO to restore functionality.

If the stated goal is to help new players make better decisions when forming teams then it's actually teaching them wrong (as a joke!) by having several ATs listed as something they aren't. Maybe it started with noble intentions but it's clear several ATs were crammed into ill-fitting spaces just so there could be approximately balanced categories, which is simply not the way the game works. And what's the point of having people memorize a new system with its own nonsensical rules for exactly one application? I will say again that just asking people to bring a variety of different ATs is infinitely easier to understand and do without anyone having to learn anything or argue about (for 12+ pages).

Regarding recent changes, my thoughts on the set are: 1) I understand why we have Buttstroke and Elbow Strike; all Dom sets are a combination of melee and range. Even if I feel melee attacks are unusual for a gun-based set, it's part of the class identity, and technically Doms do more damage in melee, so they aren't bad. Also having a PBAoE in the form of Trip Mine helps justify this. And the overall lack of cones in Control means you can mostly stay in melee if you want to. That said: Buckshot. It's a cone. I think M30 Grenade would be a better fit for the set. Outside of this one power there's no other reason an Arsenal/Arsenal Dom needs to back out of melee range. I know, Doms tend to get cones, it is what it is. But it's not entirely unprecedented. Anyway this one is a long shot but it's how I feel. 2) While we're on the topic of the melee powers, I don't understand Elbow Strike. The set is about having a gun and this power is you just punching someone. The gun doesn't come into play at all. Is this an animation problem? Are there no other animations for a melee attack with a gun that would work? I would even prefer some sort of anime nonsense uppercutting someone with the gun to just not using the gun at all. It would be like having a karate kick in the middle of Radiation Blast. I don't get it. 3) The changes to the unique version of Trip Mine are making it pretty good. It has the best features of the blaster version, not being interruptable, while also having a knockdown (one less power to not have to reign in KB on. Looking at you Buckshot and the possible replacement M30 Grenade). So this is good. 4) The utility in this set is good, I like the general Power Up option and Targeting Drone is quite good. It goes a long way toward making sure those low accuracy mez powers land. 5) Snipes are always good and I appreciate its inclusion here. It's one of the better powers. 6) Ignite is a good power, though it does make enemies flee like pretty much all damage patches. Hey you know what would help with that? If the Control set had an immobilize...

A slow is not an immobilize no matter how much you enhance it (and who enhances for slow in something like that anyway?). It would do nothing to keep AVs from running all over the place, for instance. In fact, slows tend to make them panic and start running, which is a reason the set needs a proper immobilize. I really hope "the set has slow" isn't the reason we're not getting one. I would point out, slow-heavy sets like Ice, Earth, and Gravity still have one. Immobilize also goes beyond just having a way to keep enemies still. For Controllers it's an important tool to trigger Containment on all targets. It also often serves as one of the only reliable, quick-recharging sources of damage. Anyway, I hopped on and played with the set for a bit. 1) Being able to take the hold right off the bat is good, and makes the set more immediately playable. Most sets start with a hold and it's the easiest way to get Containment going and give you an early solo option, so this is the right decision. 2) I took Sleep Grenade to test it, even though I would absolutely skip it in a real build. I can see what you're going with with the changes, and it's not necessarily a bad idea. The point is to have a quick-recharging sleep that you can put out at any time. It gives it a unique opportunity compared to other sets where you could theoretically drop sleep every 5 seconds, and always have a power to drop on extra spawns or just to open with. And with it being on-demand it's not conflicting with things like the confuse and whatnot, because it's a conscious decision. Still, it just isn't a very good power, and from my experience and the feedback given above by other posters, most people would rather have the version that ticks if we ABSOLUTELY HAVE to have a sleep for SOME reason. I'm sure it was done so that domination/containment actually work on it, but here's the thing. This version of the power is actually worse than what it was, and it's not like it was good to begin with. And second, and I KNOW you're tired of hearing this, but you know what else would work in this slot that would work with domination/containment and still have a useful slow effect, and be overall 1000 times more useful to the build? An immobilize. 3) The increased radius on Smoke Canister increases its area from 1256 to 1962 which is a pretty good change, and will make it easier to hit full spawns if they're fully spread out. -perception in particular is a tentative debuff, since if anyone in the group sees you it will aggro them all, so I would say this is a good change. 4) Tri-Cannon is... All right it's not a lot, but I understand the limitations we're working with and I appreciate the effort put in here. 👍 Here's the boi we're working with: I have some thoughts on Assault too but I'll post those in the appropriate thread.

We got frag grenade 😄

Not quite. Mass Hypnosis has a 45s recharge and twice the duration. This seems meant to be a short-duration AoE sleep you can fire out basically whenever you want.

I don't think 5th existing so we can beat them up is a problem, but working for Nazis comes across as an uncomfortable endorsement and is a red flag.

Honestly I think the powers being flagged to not work on sleeping enemies is a crutch. It's a neat mechanic, but it's a band-aid on the set trying desperately to justify the sleep power's existence. Common pairings with the set will be dropping DoT patches everywhere, and anyone with an Interface is breaking sleep left and right. It also means to get the most out of the set, you're either lacking the debuffs that the sleep power offers (which could be in some other, better power), or reducing your set's damage. And it also keeps putting enemies you confused to sleep. It doesn't work.

Well said. Filling roles arbitrarily is the biggest problem with this system. Especially since filling a role can be dubious at best -- you could add someone who's not actually filling that role (Night Widow for control), the game just pretends they are. Or it could be filled by something else (a Mastermind built to tank). Or the game disagrees that something fills the role it obviously does (Corruptor not being support). And why would I go out of my way to add a Controller to an ITF when most of the guys are immune anyway? I'd rather just fill up a team of 8 people and go without thinking about if we filled every role, which I never even think about anyway. I only think in terms of support or tank and then move on. And my definition of what fills those roles is clearly more broad than what this system thinks. If the stated goal is "a bonus for something you're doing anyway," or "something you don't have to think about," it fails on every level. It's more work for everyone, is more stuff to memorize for no reason, tries to enforce a specific arbitrary playstyle on people, and will give people excuses to boot others from TFs. It WILL slow down team formation and encourage bad behavior.

That's kinda the crux of the debate. A lot of the ATs aren't straightforward or could fill two, three, or even five different roles. Night Widows are not Fortunatas. What a HEAT does depends on how you built it. I would never argue a Corruptor is a damage AT before a support one. A Mastermind could be literally anything. All of these definitions are wobbly and fiddly, and you end up with situations like realizing there are really only two control ATs, and so you have to shove something in there even if it's not. Because you're trying to force all the ATs into neat little boxes that they refuse to fit in, and were never designed to fit in. At least asking for a variety of ATs is easy for everyone to understand, there's nothing to track or disagree with, and nobody can argue with the results.

Also more stuff to learn and argue about, like why Corruptors aren't a support AT, or why my Night Widow is control despite not having a single mez power. I think most of this would be solved by just asking a team to have at least 5 or 6 different ATs? That would say "diverse team" to me without anyone having to learn anything new. There would be nothing to argue about or fail to understand. It's pretty clear if a team has 5 different ATs or doesn't.

I would take the changed Psi Tornado, even with the lower target cap, just because it's so much faster. I will also agree with the mace AoE powers all being super weak for some reason. Maybe that's why they don't want to give us mace Frag Grenade, because it just invalidates the blasts. Maybe give us the mace Frag and make the mace blasts better.

It is true enemies will flee like mad from NWs because of the -recharge. I have Confront just for AVs who will run screaming every time otherwise, and makes fighting them obnoxious.

The two drones version was cool, and at least somewhat distinct, though there was apparently some problem with hitboxes. But multi-pet powers like Fire Imps and Gremlins are supposed to have no-collision pushable hitboxes like MM pets anyway. I wonder if there's a reason that can't happen.

Pain Tolerance is 15%, yes, fully enhanceable.

Actually we talked about that some in closed beta. The main reason is there are alternatives to these sets with the same theme (dark = Soul, electric = Mu). It's for more variety and less duplication in sets. I would agree S/L RES/DEF is generally better, but having lots of RES/DEF to other types isn't necessarily bad, and some people might prefer that option. I would personally prefer if we got a choice of one or the other, since power lockout tech exists, but it is what it is.

I have always wondered why Nocturne is a vampire, and never thought that the cybernetic eye or pale skin tone was meant to be indicative of all Widows.

Sleep is not completely useless, it has its moments, but you have to know it's regularly skipped in most sets, and is basically useless 99% of the time in any team content. You can manufacture scenarios where sleep is useful, but it's very difficult to have much use in an AoE-centric meta where Interface is ticcing DoTs on all enemies at all times. The common pairings of the set in Arsenal Assault and Traps also have AoE DoTs. The set already has an AoE stun, AoE hold, and AoE -perception/confuse if you want to keep extra mobs under control. The few cases where people do use sleeps regularly, it's for the secondary effects (like Static Field), which could easily just be in a different power that's more widely usable. Nobody is saying sleep has no use at all, but is it what the set needs? It lowers the damage of the set by disabling damage other powers would do, the set has plenty of AoE mez already, it's yet another power that doesn't interact with your inherent (Controllers especially as mentioned have no reliable way to set up Containment), and it's one of too many powers with a long recharge so you have basically no quick recharging powers to use at any level range. You could solve some of the problems by moving it down to 8 like it is in Mind Control, and accepting most people will skip it like they already do in other sets, which is fine. But there are still problems with the set and places where it is lacking that just rearranging powers won't fix.

What numbers being buffed would solve the issues of having to pick a sleep at 1 no matter what, having a power with a 45 second recharge at 1, not being able to make enemies stay in patches that the set revolves around, sleep conflicting with several other powers in the set, and not having enough powers that work with Domination/Containment?

To be honest VEATs have always been incredibly powerful. I think it's only the theming that makes them so unpopular. Even the worst VEAT is better than several entire archetypes.

One thing out of the Claws kit that Widows really lack is Focus. Would be neat if NWs got that power or something similar. Incidentally, NWs do get 6 fewer powers than Fortunatas. And they can't even double up on FU/BU like Forts can with FU/Aim. Definitely space for a couple powers. Just saying.

Really good points here. And... not to keep saying it, but what would help fix this problem for both ATs would be an AoE immobilize.

DP also had the bug for a while but it was fixed at some point.