Dispari

I don't think 5th existing so we can beat them up is a problem, but working for Nazis comes across as an uncomfortable endorsement and is a red flag.

Honestly I think the powers being flagged to not work on sleeping enemies is a crutch. It's a neat mechanic, but it's a band-aid on the set trying desperately to justify the sleep power's existence. Common pairings with the set will be dropping DoT patches everywhere, and anyone with an Interface is breaking sleep left and right. It also means to get the most out of the set, you're either lacking the debuffs that the sleep power offers (which could be in some other, better power), or reducing your set's damage. And it also keeps putting enemies you confused to sleep. It doesn't work.

Well said. Filling roles arbitrarily is the biggest problem with this system. Especially since filling a role can be dubious at best -- you could add someone who's not actually filling that role (Night Widow for control), the game just pretends they are. Or it could be filled by something else (a Mastermind built to tank). Or the game disagrees that something fills the role it obviously does (Corruptor not being support). And why would I go out of my way to add a Controller to an ITF when most of the guys are immune anyway? I'd rather just fill up a team of 8 people and go without thinking about if we filled every role, which I never even think about anyway. I only think in terms of support or tank and then move on. And my definition of what fills those roles is clearly more broad than what this system thinks. If the stated goal is "a bonus for something you're doing anyway," or "something you don't have to think about," it fails on every level. It's more work for everyone, is more stuff to memorize for no reason, tries to enforce a specific arbitrary playstyle on people, and will give people excuses to boot others from TFs. It WILL slow down team formation and encourage bad behavior.

That's kinda the crux of the debate. A lot of the ATs aren't straightforward or could fill two, three, or even five different roles. Night Widows are not Fortunatas. What a HEAT does depends on how you built it. I would never argue a Corruptor is a damage AT before a support one. A Mastermind could be literally anything. All of these definitions are wobbly and fiddly, and you end up with situations like realizing there are really only two control ATs, and so you have to shove something in there even if it's not. Because you're trying to force all the ATs into neat little boxes that they refuse to fit in, and were never designed to fit in. At least asking for a variety of ATs is easy for everyone to understand, there's nothing to track or disagree with, and nobody can argue with the results.

Also more stuff to learn and argue about, like why Corruptors aren't a support AT, or why my Night Widow is control despite not having a single mez power. I think most of this would be solved by just asking a team to have at least 5 or 6 different ATs? That would say "diverse team" to me without anyone having to learn anything new. There would be nothing to argue about or fail to understand. It's pretty clear if a team has 5 different ATs or doesn't.

I would take the changed Psi Tornado, even with the lower target cap, just because it's so much faster. I will also agree with the mace AoE powers all being super weak for some reason. Maybe that's why they don't want to give us mace Frag Grenade, because it just invalidates the blasts. Maybe give us the mace Frag and make the mace blasts better.

It is true enemies will flee like mad from NWs because of the -recharge. I have Confront just for AVs who will run screaming every time otherwise, and makes fighting them obnoxious.

The two drones version was cool, and at least somewhat distinct, though there was apparently some problem with hitboxes. But multi-pet powers like Fire Imps and Gremlins are supposed to have no-collision pushable hitboxes like MM pets anyway. I wonder if there's a reason that can't happen.

Pain Tolerance is 15%, yes, fully enhanceable.

Actually we talked about that some in closed beta. The main reason is there are alternatives to these sets with the same theme (dark = Soul, electric = Mu). It's for more variety and less duplication in sets. I would agree S/L RES/DEF is generally better, but having lots of RES/DEF to other types isn't necessarily bad, and some people might prefer that option. I would personally prefer if we got a choice of one or the other, since power lockout tech exists, but it is what it is.

I have always wondered why Nocturne is a vampire, and never thought that the cybernetic eye or pale skin tone was meant to be indicative of all Widows.

Sleep is not completely useless, it has its moments, but you have to know it's regularly skipped in most sets, and is basically useless 99% of the time in any team content. You can manufacture scenarios where sleep is useful, but it's very difficult to have much use in an AoE-centric meta where Interface is ticcing DoTs on all enemies at all times. The common pairings of the set in Arsenal Assault and Traps also have AoE DoTs. The set already has an AoE stun, AoE hold, and AoE -perception/confuse if you want to keep extra mobs under control. The few cases where people do use sleeps regularly, it's for the secondary effects (like Static Field), which could easily just be in a different power that's more widely usable. Nobody is saying sleep has no use at all, but is it what the set needs? It lowers the damage of the set by disabling damage other powers would do, the set has plenty of AoE mez already, it's yet another power that doesn't interact with your inherent (Controllers especially as mentioned have no reliable way to set up Containment), and it's one of too many powers with a long recharge so you have basically no quick recharging powers to use at any level range. You could solve some of the problems by moving it down to 8 like it is in Mind Control, and accepting most people will skip it like they already do in other sets, which is fine. But there are still problems with the set and places where it is lacking that just rearranging powers won't fix.

What numbers being buffed would solve the issues of having to pick a sleep at 1 no matter what, having a power with a 45 second recharge at 1, not being able to make enemies stay in patches that the set revolves around, sleep conflicting with several other powers in the set, and not having enough powers that work with Domination/Containment?

To be honest VEATs have always been incredibly powerful. I think it's only the theming that makes them so unpopular. Even the worst VEAT is better than several entire archetypes.

One thing out of the Claws kit that Widows really lack is Focus. Would be neat if NWs got that power or something similar. Incidentally, NWs do get 6 fewer powers than Fortunatas. And they can't even double up on FU/BU like Forts can with FU/Aim. Definitely space for a couple powers. Just saying.

Really good points here. And... not to keep saying it, but what would help fix this problem for both ATs would be an AoE immobilize.

DP also had the bug for a while but it was fixed at some point.

I think the idea is it's more of a SWAT/riot control type set. You're shooting teargas and stun grenades, to neutralize large groups of enemies that might be powerful metas. You can always play a Dom and pair it with a set that does just shoot bullets.

In a way you're right, Burt. Cryo Freeze Ray and Tranquilizer already existed. Liquid Nitrogen is basically Ice Slick. Cloaking Device is just the Illusion stealth. Flash Bang and Tear Gas are just your typical AoE stun/hold, though AFAIK Tear Gas is the only one with a -DMG. And Gun Drone is just copied from Devices with few changes. Aside from Gun Drone though I don't think that's a problem really. The powers still have some good synergy, and Smoke Canister is reasonably unique. Also as Fup said, it's the first time we've really gotten a good Natural/Tech themed control set.

This would make a lot more sense and be easier for players to understand (instead of having to learn that Corrs aren't a support AT). It could even be 6, 7, or even 8 different ATs for all I care. Simplicity is best.

BTW not sure if it's Arsenal Control or Arsenal Assault doing this (or both), but having the old bug where my weapon is reset every time I go into the character editor. I have it set to Celestial Rifle on my back. But every time I open the editor it's reset to default, which would cost me money if I said okay.

Second role for each archetype is a good idea, but I'm not sure what Scrapper, Stalker, and Sentinel would be. They only do one type of damage and don't really tank. Doms and Masterminds also fit into more than two roles because of the wide variety of their powers. Doms get both melee and ranged attacks in addition to control, and Mastermind pets are all over the place and can count as anything.

Traps and Devices versions of Trip Mine are different. Devices is non-interruptable and so animates much faster. It can be used in combat and under fire. The downside is a longer recharge of 30s compared to Traps which is 20s. However, Dom version seems to be a hybrid? It's non-interruptable like Blaster, but has a 20s recharge. And the damage reported is quite low. The power does seem to be significantly weaker. For one it has no lethal component, and it has no random fire damage on it. The details for the Blaster version are shown as a pseudopet with a self-destruct power, while the Dom version just reports damage as an attack. The fire damage also seems quite low on top of that. Blasters and Doms should have much closer damage values. (Also minor bug apparent in these screenies, the powers are being reported as Assault Rifle and not Arsenal Assault, even the ones that have no crossover like Power Up)

If the ice slick power actually immobilized people and the AoE sleep was moved down so it could be skipped, I would like this set a whole lot more. It would address pretty much all my concerns with the set's performance. Only thing left is... the Gun Drone is boring, even if he attacks faster. It's still just an obviously ported Blaster power.