Hopeling
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Posts posted by Hopeling
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2 hours ago, tinytim1183 said:
I have only just started trying to gather some data for this, but I think you will have a problem with the incoming damage being trivial. Many of the sets secondary abilities, and balancing points, revolve around their secondary effect.
The other problem with trivial incoming damage is it then lends itself to herd and burn. If you are never worried about death, then more enemies around you only becomes a detriment to ST focused sets.
Testing with nontrivial incoming damage is part of the plan, I just intended to do it as a separate test condition. Maybe Fiery Melee clears fastest when not in danger, but drops to middling when it has to pace itself for fear of dying, for example.
How much herding are we talking about? I picked a warehouse map in the hope that herding would be self-limiting; spawns are far enough apart that it didn't seem to me like herding saved time unless it was eg two spawns already in the same room. If you're doing the whole map in one pull and clearing in three minutes, yeah, maybe I do need to give enemies more than the one attack.
1 hour ago, tinytim1183 said:Would it be better to take the secondary out of it completely? Something like use Super Reflexes, only take the toggles, but don't use them. Fill in with power pools that you again won't use. It would also let the end cost part of any balancing still count in the tests, as well as secondary effects. Pick a difficulty where you can survive the EB, and then test from there?
That is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how informative it would be, since we'd be getting pretty far from "realistic conditions" here. If you try it, let us know how it goes!
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28 minutes ago, nihilii said:
I wonder if there is truly anyone who considers Pylon tests as a competition.
I don't think anyone literally builds a character just to kill pylons, but top pylon times often involve weird tricks. Like, Water Spout is great for pylon DPS, and I'm sure it's also great for DPS on an AV, but I would call it a pretty significant tradeoff against something like Fireball or Conserve Power.
19 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:To one of @Hopeling‘s points earlier, “if I'm clearing with Broadsword in about 7 minutes, and somebody else is doing it in 5, then something is wrong on one end or the other.” It’s highly possible that one player is significantly better than another, and I think the variance in player ability is FAR greater than that in melee sets.
Yes, but I don't think this is a game with an especially high skill cap, at least not at the level of "clear a mission on +0/x3". As long as it's a set you're reasonably familiar with and you don't have super high ping, I would be surprised if performance varies widely between players. If I'm wrong and it does, I agree that creates issues for the project.
1 minute ago, Infinitum said:Where are the numbers reported again?
The plan is to collect them in this thread.
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3 hours ago, Redlynne said:
So you DON'T use 6 slotting Gaussian's to help you get to the Defense caps?
Eh, only for positional defense sets.
I wouldn't say that Build Up is the #1 reason to want global recharge, nor even especially close to it. And like @Croax, for me it seems to recharge through Assassin's Mark faster than any amount of slotting would give. But that might depend on the number of AoE attacks you have, since it feels like AM gets a separate proc chance for each hit.
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2 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:
What I’d hate to see is going to the devs with the request to, say, “increase damage on dual weapons by 3% and nerf martial arts by 1%.”
I don't think anybody wants to do this, or even expects to get that level of precision out of the data.
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It's interesting to me that the intent of Opportunity was "below Scrapper damage without, above Scrapper damage during". Even with Offensive Opportunity and optimistic estimates, Sentinel damage during Opportunity was just barely at par with a scrapper.
The suggested new inherent sounds... pretty meh? But it's extremely preliminary, so I'm not going to worry about it yet.
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1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:
Can I ask, what is the motive and what is the end game? I view the Pylon testing mostly as a competition
The motive is "Kaeladin's DPS spreadsheet, now with more empiricism in every bite!"
Information like this is also probably useful for balance/design reasons, but players have always been interested in things like this. Pylon times have become a minigame in themselves, but they're also used to benchmark DPS on archvillains. This is great if you want to take down an AV, but sustained single-target DPS is pretty niche metric in a game consisting mostly of short multi-target fights. Yet there aren't actually any widely-used metrics for the latter.
Hopefully, this will allow us to figure out exactly how true some common wisdom is, like "Battle Axe is a weaker version of War Mace", "Scrappers get more mileage from Dual Blades than Brutes do", or "Titan Weapons loves recharge".
1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:is the intention to ask the devs to standardize those sets so that all sets do the same or similar damage?
Roughly yes, although "standardize" has unfortunate connotations. If eg Broadsword needs a buff, making it even more like Katana is probably not the way to go.
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I'm excited about this project because, to my knowledge, nobody's ever really attempted to do anything like this before. I'm sure the original devs had some kind of internal metrics, but I don't know what they were.
If you're skeptical that +0/x3 with SOs is representative of "normal" gameplay conditions, so are we, but don't worry: this is only the initial setting for the test. We plan to explore relevant variables like pools and epic powers, IO slotting, global recharge, secondaries, difficulty settings, ability to mitigate incoming damage, and Incarnate powers, as well as further testing for other ATs. Altogether, this should give a reasonably comprehensive picture of how each set does under all kinds of parameters. This, in turn, can inform future changes, like long-needed buffs to underperforming powersets. (This isn't just hopeful speculation: we already have GM and dev interest in the project.)
The thing is, at about 5 minutes per run, and wanting 10+ runs for each powerset under each condition, this is just too big a project for two people. Plus, I just plain don't know how to play eg Psi Melee, so any data I could generate for it myself would probably be garbage.
A few other random notes:
- Goodhart's Law is relevant here: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure." I am absolutely certain that the Scrapper board regulars can find ways to break this test in half, but the point here is to see how a powerset does rather than how hard you can game the test. 6-slotting Sprint and Swift for run speed may get you faster clear times, but it isn't really in the spirit of what we're trying to do. (If you want to game the test for bragging rights, let's keep those runs separate from regular test data.)
- Herding groups together IS allowed, and in some places can't even be avoided, because this is a thing people do in regular missions too. But due to the layout of the map, it isn't always be the best choice... I think. If you're herding so much that you are at serious risk of dying from enemies that have only a single attack, again, that's probably not in the spirit of the test.
- You're not required to use the standard slotting if it doesn't make sense for that power; for example, Lightning Rod is probably better slotted 3dam/3rech so its recharge matches Build Up.
- Some cross-validation is going to be necessary; if I'm clearing with Broadsword in about 7 minutes, and somebody else is doing it in 5, then something is wrong on one end or the other. So it absolutely does not hurt to run something that somebody else has already tested and see if we're all on the same page.
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Pylons do have resistance to all damage, and they do regenerate about 100 hp/second, but that just means the equation is (DPS*(1-Resist)-Regen)*Time=HP, rather than just DPS*Time=HP. Since the resists, regen, and HP are known, determining raw DPS from kill time is just an algebra problem.
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3 hours ago, TheAdjustor said:
I would recommend an alternate secondary to be included. SR with and without quickness comes to mind.
I'm increasingly sympathetic to this the more we've talked about it.
Since we're trying to benchmark attack sets more than secondaries, I'm actually not sure Quickness specifically should be included; that can be folded into testing at various levels of global recharge.
The issue with WP vs SR is that there are two big differences besides durability (which, like you say, is a non-issue): Quick Recovery, and a taunt aura. Adding Invuln (taunt aura, no endurance) or Ninjitsu (endurance, no taunt aura) as another point of comparison would address this.
4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:Pylons have unique resistance and regen properties that don't reflect "real" ST damage for most content,
I... don't think this is actually true? Pylon resistance and regen isn't particularly unique, and can be accounted for with some arithmetic. Pylon DPS predicts DPS on a stationary archvillain about as well as you could hope for. It's just that sustained ST DPS isn't an especially relevant metric in a game consisting mostly of short multi-target fights.
I know this is a nitpick, but it's the only part of your summary that I had any objection to. The rest looks great.
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It means using five Enhancement Boosters on an IO.
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5 hours ago, Bopper said:
For someone who has theory crafted a TW build but has not yet made one, can someone explain to me something about Momentum?
I want to know, if you activate Momentum, does it refresh the 5 second timer on Momentum when you use one of the momentum starter attacks, or do you have to wait until momentum wears off, then reapply Momentum with a slow attack?
Thanks,
You have to reapply with a slow attack.
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2 hours ago, TheAdjustor said:
From personal experience fitting in an epic like pyre mastery or mu mastery is actually very significant to overall set performance, while most of the single target tests, seem to work around waterspout.
Unfortunately the map seems to be gone.
Including pools and epic powers will definitely be a boost. That's probably the next thing to test once we get "baseline" numbers with just the primaries.
My apologies about the map: I took down the asteroid map and put up a warehouse map like we talked about, then later took down the warehouse and republished it to add the test conditions into the mission text. I've edited my posts with the new arc IDs, and at this point I'm pretty sure the mission is in its final form, but if in doubt, search for arcs by @Hymnblade.
8 hours ago, Haijinx said:Maybe once the testing critera is hashed out, start a new thread - So at least the Randos who only read the first 5 post won't continue chiming in with the nerf herding accusations.
Yep, that's the plan. I think we've just about hammered out the protocol now, thanks to everybody's input.
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10 minutes ago, Jeuraud said:
I've read the Opportunity description a few times and I'm still not sure exactly how it's supposed to work.
Whatever else happens, Opportunity definitely needs a better description. I've seen tons of people confused about what it actually does.
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Only primary powers can crit. Shield Charge and Spring Attack don't have a chance to crit at all, so there's nothing for the Critical Strikes proc to boost.
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Just now, TheAdjustor said:
I think this needs to put in the context of ranged blast sets being inherently weaker in both damage output and secondary effects. (As a general rule) . Blaster and Sentinel ranged damage could both use a bit of a boost.
The fact that multiple blast sets (Energy, anyone?) are weak in absolute terms also does not help. Fire, Beam, and Water are around where most sets should be, IMO.
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7 hours ago, Rathulfr said:
The main objections to Sentinels are: weak damage and they don't offer anything significant to teams.
I agree that these are the main problems.
I don't think the inherent needs to be completely redone. I'm not even sure the range and target caps need to change. Right now, Sentinels have a niche for single-target damage and debuffing. I'd rather lean into that than try to get them to compete with Blasters in AoE. (Think about Stalkers vs Scrappers: Scrappers have better AoE powers, but people still like Stalkers because they offer superior ST and controlled crits.)
To this end, I would propose two things:
- Raise the damage scale. Right now it's at 0.95, which is slightly anemic compared to Blaster/Scrapper damage. This should go up to 1.0 or 1.05. Maybe 1.125 to match Blasters, but I think this might be too high in combination with the inherent.
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Allow Opportunity to debuff multiple targets while the bar is full. Look, Opportunity is a pretty good effect already. It's a -res debuff, which everyone loves, and it offers a perfect role for Sentinels on teams. But debuffing one target every 30 seconds isn't enough to be very useful except on AVs. Specifically, I think it should work like this:
- For the duration of the Opportunity effect, the t1 or t2 power (whichever was used) will continue to apply the Opportunity -20% resist debuff. This means that you get to continue debuffing targets until Opportunity expires, rather than debuffing one target and being done. This way, you'd be able to have a debuff up most of the time, on whatever you're currently shooting. It also creates a clear role for the Sentinel on teams: Sentinels do target selection. Teammates can always look for the reticle as an indicator for what to hit, or target through the Sentinel, and doing so will consistently boost their damage. A Blaster makes the minions melt, but a Sentinel makes the bosses melt.
I'd also like to see Offensive Opportunity's damage proc apply to every target of AoE powers, instead of just the main target. But that's a relatively minor change.
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4 hours ago, Infinitum said:
Also what is the ae map number?
By the way, if you're doing this on Pineapple, the arc ID is 3281.
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7 minutes ago, Vayek said:
Definitive proof that Titan weapons is too strong for a melee powerset since melee sets must always be the weakest damage in the game! *he said with a deeply sarcastic and belittling voice*
https://thehardtimes.net/harddrive/man-wins-yet-another-round-of-laser-tag-using-only-melee-attacks/
Vayek, seriously, what on Earth do you think you're accomplishing here? A GM specifically asked us to do this testing. This is not a TW vendetta. This is testing.
If you want to participate in the process, you're welcome to. If you have some specific criticism of our methodology, say so, and we can discuss it. But if you're just going to throw around strawmen and fail to respond to any of the things anybody has actually said, we're basically just going to continue ignoring you.
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4 hours ago, Infinitum said:
I'm going to test psi melee with wp and invul on a scrapper tomorrow, its my day off.
Can you give me specifics on how we are slotting stuff like stamina and health power pools etc.
4 hours ago, Infinitum said:I will post a screenshot of my slotting to see if its acceptable before I do anything though.
Also what is the ae map number?
Thanks! Psi Melee is one of the sets I haven't played, so I was going to ask for help with it since I have no idea how to use it correctly.
I put 3 slots in Stamina and Quick Recovery, 4 slots in my toggles (1 endredux + 3 heal/def/res or whatever), and just the base slot in Sprint/Swift/Hurdle/Health. Ultimately I don't think defensive slotting is going to matter a lot, because you shouldn't be in any serious danger of dying.
After discussing with @TheAdjustor about the herding thing, I actually unpublished the asteroid map, and made a different map that doesn't favor herding quite so heavily. It also fixes a couple other issues with the asteroid map: the asteroid had no variation in enemy level (most missions have a mix of +0 and +1), and that "hidden" plateau was a stumbling block. The new arc is ID 15873 and takes place on a warehouse map.
Since this is a different map, that means my times from yesterday have to be thrown out; I'll re-test on the new map today.
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6 minutes ago, Vayek said:
Titan Weapons is well balanced with its limitations vrs strengths.
Great! If that's true, it will show up in the data. If it isn't, we'll still get a bunch of useful quantitative comparisons of every melee set under a variety of conditions. Even aside from any possible balance adjustments, players are very interested in that kind of thing, so this is worth doing.
6 minutes ago, Vayek said:How about just stop complaining for the sake of complaining and just enjoy the game? If you don't like something, don't play it.
Seriously, just stop. The only one complaining here is you. The rest of us are testing.
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1 minute ago, TheAdjustor said:
The problem is the "reasonable range" is moving. 40% or so "over performance" is now down to 6:30 vs 7:10 in a test that favors titan weapons (secondary with good endurance recovery, enemies that make it easy to maintain momentum and don't provide much of distraction from monitoring momentum)
Literally nobody has said that this indicates over-performance. It is wildly premature to draw conclusions from 3 data points under a single test condition.
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25 minutes ago, Infinitum said:
Me, I just don't want sweeping downward changes to melee. If changes are needed it needs to be upward maybe not to top tier or above levels but upward then revisited later.
I think a big problem is we don't know what the target balance point is or should be. No doubt TW is top shelf, but with a ton of drawbacks built into it. I think there are 3 or 4 up there with it though - from a brute perspective.
I don't think anybody wants that. Earlier in the thread, for example, GM Sijin said that "The majority of those who have expressed an interest in reducing TW's performance have clearly been very wary of over adjusting it. You can bet Captain Powerhouse [the dev who would be making any adjustment] will be doubly so."
Hopefully, these tests will allow us to figure out where the balance point is. I expect to find some clustering, because like you say, there are a bunch of sets that all seem to be about equally great. But if that cluster is around 6:30 along with TW, that indicates something different than if the band is at 7:45.
21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:Just out of curiosity, how accurate is the dps analyzer in mids?
To my knowledge, it is potentially unreliable - I've seen people cite numbers from it that were clearly not plausible (eg, 400 DPS with an attack chain in which every power dealt <400 damage and took >1 second). I haven't used it enough to say exactly how it becomes inaccurate though. So, it may be useful, but apply a sanity check to whatever it calculates.
25 minutes ago, Infinitum said:Btw. Haven't been posting as much because I have a sick kid at home, and im also having a UC flare, I'm not abandoning this topic and will help as much as I can, but I really don't feel well right now, so, sorry about that.
No problem. Get well soon. I appreciate your participation; the fact that you've been on board with our protocol tells me that we're probably doing something useful instead of just gathering garbage data.
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17 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:
Most of the regular game play(regular = full team) in the game does tend to be AoE fests
Absolutely, but on a team you also have to "share" those targets with teammates.
I mean, I agree that AoE is more important overall in this game than ST is. I just don't want the test to skew so hard that way that it turns into a farm map; Spines and Electric Melee do great there, but not so great in an office map where they can't easily drag the bosses into the next mob.
In fact, maybe I should just change it to an office map, or something else where spawns are a little more spread out. Then you can still herd if you want to, but it won't be a clearly dominant strategy.
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11 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:
If it's not kosher it's at least treif.
I'm happy to make x8 one of the test conditions, but for now I'd prefer to avoid herding on x3. Both may be useful, but I expect the second to favor AoE attacks much more, while we're trying to get a metric where both AoE and ST are important.
Scrapper Melee Primary Testing: "Standard" environment
in Scrapper
Posted
@tinytim1183, you were right, herding is still the dominant strategy. I had done it wrong before, but I just clocked 5:30 with Broadsword via aggressive herding, a dramatic improvement over the 6:30-7:00 range I'd been hitting before.
I'm giving the <Punching Bags> back their "normal" number of attacks instead of just a single attack. According to a quick test, you should still be in no danger while fighting a single spawn, but 2 spawns together is now right about the limit of what can be survived unless you have mitigation from your primary. So a little bit of herding will still work, but gathering multiple full spawns will be sketchy, especially with bosses.
This is definitely true. I'd like to test with Invulnerability and Ninjitsu later, to see if losing bonus endurance or losing a taunt aura scrambles the rankings.