Ingenuity (Defense/Armor)

[Steampunkette]

4 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

Just, check my screenshot a few posts up, in Mid's. If you can softcap positionals so easily with plain 25 IO's at 22nd level, you need to be wary of giving that set anything more than Ninjutsu already has. Ninjutsu already completely invalidates and obsoletes Super Reflexes, on archetypes with access to both powersets (Scrapper, Sentinel, Stalker).

You're getting 8.5% to all positions from set bonuses, there. 2.5% per position from Gaussian, 6% from the two Uniques in Tough.

 

You can't say "Softcap at 22 with plain 25 IOs" and use a full set and two uniques as your example. It also specifically requires you to use an attack set which provides defense on attack in order to make up the difference and 3 slot that power -for- defense, rather than Damage or Endurance Reduction. So Katana, Titan Weapons, or Broadsword.

 

It's an increasingly narrow set of conditions to get to "Too good"

[Crysta Clear]

Read the post with the screenshot. I didn't say that. I just paraphrased in the one after. The point is, that is very minimal effort as far as set IOs are concerned, and Titan Weapon is the single most popular melee set. There's also Staff Fighting, if you want to wait until 2nd level to select your parry.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, Crysta Clear said:

Read the post with the screenshot. I didn't say that. I just paraphrased in the one after. The point is, that is very minimal effort as far as set IOs are concerned, and Titan Weapon is the single most popular melee set.

It's true that with some IO expenditures you can get softcap. And with IO expenditures and the right primary you can get softcap to all positions.

 

 

That's also true of MOST powersets. Hell, with the right selection of powers most Blasters and Dominators can get at least 1 type if not two vectors softcapped.

 

With the right set bonuses I can make a SS/Shield Brute with softcapped positions, 57% Damage Resistance to SL (and 20% or more to all other types) and a permanent 107% damage buff that routinely bumps up to  over 300% solo.

 

This is why set bonuses are bullshit and aren't the core of balance.

 

[Crysta Clear]

My blaster softcaps all three positionals, but she requires T4 Barrier to do it. That's an entirely different animal. The fact of the matter is that the set pieces featured in that screenshot are bare minimum defense globals, and they have a total cost of less than 30m, well within the inf someone's merits gained through leveling via arcs will net them.

Gaussian: 1.5m ~ 2m per piece, times six pieces = 9m ~ 12m
GladArm: 9m ~ 12m depending on the day
SteadProt: 4m ~ 5m

 

Total cost: at most 27m, at cheapest, 22m.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Steampunkette]

That's cool and all, but it doesn't change the fact that powersets aren't balanced around IOs. Which is great, 'cause the character you built there gets Defensive Sweep, Kick, and 1 other non-defense power before 22. They'd be super durable but take -forever- to kill anything!

 

Compare this powerset to it's contemporaries. To Willpower and Bio Armor, Invuln and Energy. To Ice and Stone. To SR and Ninjitsu and Shield.

 

It isn't significantly out of line with any of them, and short of IO Slotting it's going to underperform against some of them and overperform against others. But it does have the almost-unique (Radiation and Shield also do some) ability to offer some minor team benefits, like healing or narrow, temporary, defense boosts, with a capstone that can save a team's butt in a pinch.

[Crysta Clear]

There's an open space at 12th, and you could throw Hover and Combat Jumping over to 20th and 22nd, adding three more attacks at 8th, 10th and 12th. I just threw that together in literally two minutes. You don't even need to be softcapped to steamroll low-level content solo, either. You can get away with far less.

But it's okay. If literal objective numbers can't show you the issues with your suggestion, then I don't actually think you're discussing in good faith. I think we're done here.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Steampunkette]

7 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

There's an open space at 12th, and you could throw Hover and Combat Jumping over to 20th and 22nd, adding three more attacks at 8th, 10th and 12th.

Oh, you're right. It'll have 3-4 attack powers with, like, no slots to spend on them. Also this build is level 25, forgot to check the slot-levels on Gaussian's, so it'll have even -more- attacks, but absolutely no room to slot any of them 'cause of the entire focus on Defense.

 

And will only have 22.5% Resistance to S/L for 10 minutes (or 18.75 for 7) 'cause you didn't save any slots to spend on that to make it recharge faster or get it's resistance levels up... Which... I dunno. Kind of undercuts the whole argument.

 

Really, it seems like getting 8.75% defense from IOs and more from Weave/Maneuvers/Hover is the 'Real Problem' rather than the power itself.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Errants]

7 hours ago, Crysta Clear said:

The fact is, it doesn't matter whether it's 2 recovery or 50. If it can take a Performance Shifter, that is all that matters about that power. A proc is worth more than a Lv. 50 EndMod IO in Stamina.

 

The five minute 'start time' to reach full resistance is a non-penalty. And with the right primary, there is no longer a melee hole unless you are literally a Sentinel and cannot get a primary with a Parry.

 

By the way? Here is what I can do with just 13.88% Ranged and AoE defense in-secondary, at Lv. 22 with very minimal set IO usage.

 

So like I said, that is very easy to softcap, and softcap early, no less. That is only a single stack of Defensive Sweep, and a total set IO cost of less than 30m. You will easily have that much if you level in the overworld with arcs, from 1 to 22, without XP boost, and spend all your merits selling converters and boosters.

 

Keep in mind, the other set that can softcap positionals at 25th level is Super Reflexes, a set with no resists or recovery at all, and whose only non-defensive benefit is +20% global recharge.

The best defense in this game is a good offence. This isn't playable up to level 25, nor going to be viable after 25 for a long time. You're advocating playing overworld (not DFB) and arcs with 3 attacks until level 20 (Brawl, Boxing/Kick, Defensive Sweep), finally getting more attacks at levels 20-24 (assuming you're taking mez protection at level 10) and zero slotting in said attacks for damage until level 27 (at the soonest). Oh, and doing this without 2xp, so it's even longer to get to said additional attacks (and slotting for defense, no exp gained for surviving). And you're relying on a click power for your melee defense, a power which has a 5% failure rate, minimum.

 

Yes, theoretically, you can get to soft-cap Defenses by 25. But I'd love to see anyone play their Level 25 Hoverscrapper with 3 damaging attacks sharing a grand total of 5 slots (if you steal the EndReds from your toggles)... Let alone the climb to get there.

 

And, toons have minimal issues running unslotted to level 22 because the game boosts offense for lowbies (Beginner's Luck), and it returns to the point that dead mobs don't deal damage. You can sit in a herd at 45% to all, but if you can't hurt them, you're going to die... Streakbreaker works for mobs as well as players.

 

So, TL:DR, you've straw-manned the living FUCK out of this, to show that the powerset is bad because Ninjitsu is better than Super Reflexes... When none of your conclusions are true except for "it is possible to reach soft-cap on a Scrapper super-early" (22, since you don't need the EndRed, but do need level 25 IOs). Theoretically true, but definitely not viable.

 

And, because you tweaked my curiosity on this, here's a different take, that doesn't completely sacrifice offense, and WOULD be viable to play up "overworld with arcs, from 1 to 22, without XP boost, and spend all your merits selling converters and boosters." Also, it's Primary neutral, and come online at level 19 with 20 commons and 42% all defenses...

 

 

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.5
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 49 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Ice Melee
Secondary Power Set: Ninjitsu
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Fists -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(11), Dmg-I(13)
Level 1: Ninja Reflexes -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(3), DefBuff-I(5)
Level 2: Danger Sense -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(3), DefBuff-I(5)
Level 4: Ice Sword -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(11), Dmg-I(13)
Level 6: Shinobi-Iri -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(7), DefBuff-I(7)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 10: Kuji-In Rin -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(15)
Level 12: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 14: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(15)
Level 16: Weave -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(17), DefBuff-I(17)
Level 18: Maneuvers -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(19), DefBuff-I(19)
Level 20: [Empty] 
Level 22: [Empty] 
Level 24: [Empty] 
Level 26: [Empty] 
Level 28: [Empty] 
Level 30: [Empty] 
Level 32: [Empty] 
Level 35: [Empty] 
Level 38: [Empty] 
Level 41: [Empty] 
Level 44: [Empty] 
Level 47: [Empty] 
Level 49: [Empty] 
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- UnbLea-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- IntRdx-I(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A)
------------
 

 

 

Frankly, this less highlights the OP/UP of a given defensive powerset, and more highlights just how ludicrously cost efficient to a build the 3% Defense all IO's are.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Eran Rist
copy-pasting errors

[Steampunkette]

23 minutes ago, Eran Rist said:

A great Analysis and Explanation.

Thank you, so much, for better encapsulating what I understood, but could not effectively communicate. I actually, earnestly, appreciate it.

 

Fact is, someone could take that exact same build and instead of grabbing a Primary that drops Defense into one of it's attacks and instead just slot a few Kinetic Combats into their melee attacks to offset the lack of Melee defense, then use the rest of the same slotting strategy to get to softcap melee defense.

 

All it really shows is that if someone is willing to spend 3 power pools on defenses and 30 million+ inf on IOs they can have good defenses regardless of their powersets. And combined with a defensive primary or secondary, the investment becomes even more effective. It's not really news, at that point. It's just noise.