MM Goto changes!

[TheSpiritFox]

Devs are modifying goto commands to make them work kinda like they used to, allowing melee pets to be effective again with goto commands, while still not having pets running all the fuck over everywhere all the time!

 

Today is a good day!

[BGSacho]

Thanks for your work on this, this was one of the more frustrating changes I've had to deal with, remaking all my macros to exclude the bruiser/prince so they can stay on def/follow and do what they want instead of sitting in one spot spamming ice blast/hurl.

[Rumahu]

I'm PUMPED that the AI is getting a serious do-over, there has been some amazing progress. Now all we need is for the pets to be more responsive in general.

What about the delay after telling them to goto somewhere and them still idling for a couple seconds while getting shot at and not fighting? Both ranged and melee pets.
For instance.. Since pets won't move out of burn patches now (but listen to Goto's. Perfect!), I need to use goto to get them to move them out of harms way. However once they arrive at the goto location and are out of any damage patch they idle and basically "turn off" for a couple seconds. Initially I figured "well of course they should idle - they're in defensive mode!".. but all of us are actively getting shot at - they should be defending me/themselves.

I really hope that the whole "idling pets" issue is resolved, as it's ruining the archetype for me atm and it used to be my favorite back when I didn't know any better on live.

Seriously go test it out - have them def/goto, follow, goto a couple times and see that they don't respond while under fire for a couple seconds. Am I missing something? Maybe I should be using aggressive stance more but then what's the point of defensive if they don't actually defend anything?

 

/Rant - thanks guys.

[TheSpiritFox]

28 minutes ago, Rumahu said:

I'm PUMPED that the AI is getting a serious do-over, there has been some amazing progress. Now all we need is for the pets to be more responsive in general.

What about the delay after telling them to goto somewhere and them still idling for a couple seconds while getting shot at and not fighting? Both ranged and melee pets.
For instance.. Since pets won't move out of burn patches now (but listen to Goto's. Perfect!), I need to use goto to get them to move them out of harms way. However once they arrive at the goto location and are out of any damage patch they idle and basically "turn off" for a couple seconds. Initially I figured "well of course they should idle - they're in defensive mode!".. but all of us are actively getting shot at - they should be defending me/themselves.

I really hope that the whole "idling pets" issue is resolved, as it's ruining the archetype for me atm and it used to be my favorite back when I didn't know any better on live.

Seriously go test it out - have them def/goto, follow, goto a couple times and see that they don't respond while under fire for a couple seconds. Am I missing something? Maybe I should be using aggressive stance more but then what's the point of defensive if they don't actually defend anything?

 

/Rant - thanks guys.

From what I understand the AI is just designed that way. Switching them stances, specifically, is what causes them to pause before attacking if I understand it right. Feel free to post in suggestions that that be removed. Keeping them in defensive follow and using defensive goto seems to work pretty well. And using offensive goto seems to work pretty well for getting them attacking things if it takes a second for them to get where they're going. 

[Kommon]

 

5 hours ago, Rumahu said:

I'm PUMPED that the AI is getting a serious do-over, there has been some amazing progress. Now all we need is for the pets to be more responsive in general.

What about the delay after telling them to goto somewhere and them still idling for a couple seconds while getting shot at and not fighting? Both ranged and melee pets.
For instance.. Since pets won't move out of burn patches now (but listen to Goto's. Perfect!), I need to use goto to get them to move them out of harms way. However once they arrive at the goto location and are out of any damage patch they idle and basically "turn off" for a couple seconds. Initially I figured "well of course they should idle - they're in defensive mode!".. but all of us are actively getting shot at - they should be defending me/themselves.

I really hope that the whole "idling pets" issue is resolved, as it's ruining the archetype for me atm and it used to be my favorite back when I didn't know any better on live.

Seriously go test it out - have them def/goto, follow, goto a couple times and see that they don't respond while under fire for a couple seconds. Am I missing something? Maybe I should be using aggressive stance more but then what's the point of defensive if they don't actually defend anything?

 

/Rant - thanks guys.

I know that issuing follow order with any combat stance will make the pets not attack anything for around 5 seconds.  Are you issuing a follow command right after issuing a GoTo command?

 

I often use the idle time after issuing the follow command to keep my pets in check when trying doing specifics tasks, for example, during the camera portion of TPN trial.  As long as I keep issuing the follow command every few seconds and their combat stance is in Defensive, BG mode stays active, but the pets won't attack anything.

[Rumahu]

16 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

From what I understand the AI is just designed that way. Switching them stances, specifically, is what causes them to pause before attacking if I understand it right. Feel free to post in suggestions that that be removed. Keeping them in defensive follow and using defensive goto seems to work pretty well. And using offensive goto seems to work pretty well for getting them attacking things if it takes a second for them to get where they're going. 

I pretty much always keep my pets in defensive stance with the occasional quick "attack my target" and reversal back to Def follow/goto. They used to keep the target in attack my target after I do it once or twice and then I'd resume bodyguard.

Is there an argument to keep the pause after a stance change? Is it a restriction with the system that you know of? I already made a forum post about it a couple weeks ago:

However that's in bug reports, not suggestions. Think I should re-create it in suggestions as well?

 

 

11 hours ago, Kommon said:

 

I know that issuing follow order with any combat stance will make the pets not attack anything for around 5 seconds.  Are you issuing a follow command right after issuing a GoTo command?

 

I often use the idle time after issuing the follow command to keep my pets in check when trying doing specifics tasks, for example, during the camera portion of TPN trial.  As long as I keep issuing the follow command every few seconds and their combat stance is in Defensive, BG mode stays active, but the pets won't attack anything.

Follow always made them "break" and do nothing, so I only used it to force them to recognize the "goto" pre-patch and almost never follow on its own.
See Dechs' guide from live here:
https://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2012/01/gd-mastermind.html

He suggests you..:

"Issue a Follow command first, then do your second Go To. There's something about Follow that "resets" the AI and what it was targeting. The problem is that Follow also seems to enforce some sort of idle loop for a few seconds, during which your henchmen will not respond to combat. To get around that, you issue the GoTo command immediately afterwards, sending them where you want them to be without the pesky "I need to punch him in the face" taking over (at least, for a little while)."
That same concept is what I used pre patch. It now appears that the idle loop is in both follow AND the GoTo, where it used to be reset as Dechs suggested.

[Kommon]

2 hours ago, Rumahu said:

Follow always made them "break" and do nothing, so I only used it to force them to recognize the "goto" pre-patch and almost never follow on its own.
See Dechs' guide from live here:
https://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2012/01/gd-mastermind.html

He suggests you..:

"Issue a Follow command first, then do your second Go To. There's something about Follow that "resets" the AI and what it was targeting. The problem is that Follow also seems to enforce some sort of idle loop for a few seconds, during which your henchmen will not respond to combat. To get around that, you issue the GoTo command immediately afterwards, sending them where you want them to be without the pesky "I need to punch him in the face" taking over (at least, for a little while)."
That same concept is what I used pre patch. It now appears that the idle loop is in both follow AND the GoTo, where it used to be reset as Dechs suggested.

Now I know what you mean....  You know that feeling nostalgia that overcomes you for a moment when you suddenly remember something from long ago that you 99% forgot about?  Yeah... your post dredged up memories of the the same tactic I used on my masterminds a long time ago when the AI was unforgivable dumb.  Back then, I made extensive use of Follow, GoTo, and also Stay.  I would do exactly as Dechs posted, except I would also use Stay sometimes.  If I wanted my pets to stop whatever they were currently doing and follow my next command without question, I would always issue Follow first, as that seem to reset them.  I would then tell them to Stay if I simply didn't want them chasing down random mobs and fire at whatever is near me, or I would issue GoTo to reposition them before re-engaging the enemy.

 

I did play my Bots/Traps mastermind today, but I didn't notice the bots pausing at all when I issued any command other than if the very last command I used was Follow.  They eere in Defensive the whole time.

[TheSpiritFox]

3 hours ago, Rumahu said:

I pretty much always keep my pets in defensive stance with the occasional quick "attack my target" and reversal back to Def follow/goto. They used to keep the target in attack my target after I do it once or twice and then I'd resume bodyguard.

Is there an argument to keep the pause after a stance change? Is it a restriction with the system that you know of? I already made a forum post about it a couple weeks ago:

However that's in bug reports, not suggestions. Think I should re-create it in suggestions as well?

 

 

Follow always made them "break" and do nothing, so I only used it to force them to recognize the "goto" pre-patch and almost never follow on its own.
See Dechs' guide from live here:
https://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2012/01/gd-mastermind.html

He suggests you..:

"Issue a Follow command first, then do your second Go To. There's something about Follow that "resets" the AI and what it was targeting. The problem is that Follow also seems to enforce some sort of idle loop for a few seconds, during which your henchmen will not respond to combat. To get around that, you issue the GoTo command immediately afterwards, sending them where you want them to be without the pesky "I need to punch him in the face" taking over (at least, for a little while)."
That same concept is what I used pre patch. It now appears that the idle loop is in both follow AND the GoTo, where it used to be reset as Dechs suggested.

I've read that it's intended behavior. That there's like a 5 second pause after a change in commands before they start executing commands, though that if you issue a goto command, the 5 seconds starts when the command is issued, not when they get where they're going, causing goto to seem more immediate than it is because there's travel time involved. 

[Rumahu]

3 hours ago, Kommon said:

Now I know what you mean....  You know that feeling nostalgia that overcomes you for a moment when you suddenly remember something from long ago that you 99% forgot about?  Yeah... your post dredged up memories of the the same tactic I used on my masterminds a long time ago when the AI was unforgivable dumb.  Back then, I made extensive use of Follow, GoTo, and also Stay.  I would do exactly as Dechs posted, except I would also use Stay sometimes.  If I wanted my pets to stop whatever they were currently doing and follow my next command without question, I would always issue Follow first, as that seem to reset them.  I would then tell them to Stay if I simply didn't want them chasing down random mobs and fire at whatever is near me, or I would issue GoTo to reposition them before re-engaging the enemy.

 

I did play my Bots/Traps mastermind today, but I didn't notice the bots pausing at all when I issued any command other than if the very last command I used was Follow.  They eere in Defensive the whole time.

Hmm - I'll fiddle with it soon and see about simply dropping follow.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

I've read that it's intended behavior. That there's like a 5 second pause after a change in commands before they start executing commands, though that if you issue a goto command, the 5 seconds starts when the command is issued, not when they get where they're going, causing goto to seem more immediate than it is because there's travel time involved. 

That makes sense.. And unfortunately I don't recall 100% well enough if the delay in responding after goto's removal was always after some travel time. 

Why would that be intended though? Why make controls in a game less responsive than they need to be? 
It's like playing a platformer. The ones that feel good are the ones where your character doesn't slide after they land from a jump, but rather plant their feet solid on the ground and not slide at all. Realistic? Not really.. but it makes for a much better feeling game in terms of controls/feel.

[TheSpiritFox]

1 hour ago, Rumahu said:

Hmm - I'll fiddle with it soon and see about simply dropping follow.

 

 

 

That makes sense.. And unfortunately I don't recall 100% well enough if the delay in responding after goto's removal was always after some travel time. 

Why would that be intended though? Why make controls in a game less responsive than they need to be? 
It's like playing a platformer. The ones that feel good are the ones where your character doesn't slide after they land from a jump, but rather plant their feet solid on the ground and not slide at all. Realistic? Not really.. but it makes for a much better feeling game in terms of controls/feel.

I think the actual goal is to prevent you from abusing bodyguard kinda, but that's a guess. 

[Rumahu]

4 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

I think the actual goal is to prevent you from abusing bodyguard kinda, but that's a guess. 

Yeah that makes sense. I get that you're not technically supposed to always play in defensive mode, and by doing so and still "getting away with it" is sort of abusing the current system. However my take on attack my target/aggressive was to do exactly that:
Attack the target I specify, e.g. a boss or a target dishing out a ton of AoE damage.

And aggressive - shoot first, ask questions later. They'll actively engage new targets that have not entered combat with the mm or themselves. 

However look at it this way:
Passive.
Defensive.
Aggressive.

Passive: Almost never used. Only to ensure you can travel safely, minimize aggro, and to pull a low hp henchman off (of course I'd just let them die and re-summon them).

Aggressive: I honestly have no use for aggressive right now. By default it is only used for attacking a specific target... which you can do with them in defensive mode. It has even less utility than passive..

 

And then there's Defensive. It's the best stance not only because of the bodyguard bonus, but because it's the stance that objectively plays best for the player because the player has the most control over what their pets are doing WHILE continuing to do what they're designed to do: protect the player, deal some damage, and quite simply not die. 

Henchmen in defensive will fight back. They'll hold fire unless fired upon. They can also attack a specific target atm in defensive... So ultimately this is the only "real" stance in the game.

 

So I don't like having a potentially abusable system solely tied to the one stance in the archetype that feels best for me to play. Why do I have to sacrifice massive amounts of survivability by periodically disabling bodyguard mode just to have my minions respond? Can there be some sort of incentive/bonus for leaving BG mode?
Besides that, the only thing that really makes me feel like it would be 100% abusing the idea of bodyguard mode is if I was able to order them to attack my target AND I still received the bodyguard mode bonus... What do you guys think about making attack my target require aggressive stance/automatically switching them over, and potentially giving a reason to have your pets not be in defensive stance all the time? 

 

What's the current playstyle now post patch? To simply have my pets on defensive follow with the occasional attack my target and then goto-ing them out of patches and waiting for them to resume being.. henchmen? That sounds horribly dull without them jumping back and defending themselves, abusive system or not.

 

 

TL;DR: Ultimately my point is.. the AI should be responsive regardless, and I think it would be amazing if there was some incentive to leave bodyguard mode to help counter the idea of any potential abuse to bodyguard/the current system. Goal #1 is how can we balance control vs strength. 
What do you guys think?

 

[nzer]

1 hour ago, Rumahu said:

What do you guys think about making attack my target require aggressive stance/automatically switching them over, and potentially giving a reason to have your pets not be in defensive stance all the time? 

This isn't giving players a reason to not use defensive stance all the time, it's forcing them to use aggressive stance when they don't want to. Defensive attack my target already doesn't benefit from bodyguard mode, there's no reason to make this change. (Edit: I think I misread you on this part. If you're suggesting some kind of bonus for being in the other stances, that's an interesting idea that I think could have some merit. Defensive stance has bodyguard mode, so the other stances should have some benefit too. Though personally, I would prefer bodyguard be toned down and made to work in every stance, and maybe the stances be given some new bonuses. I still don't think attack my target should require aggressive stance, as it means you'd have to manually put them in defensive after the target dies if you want to replicate the current behavior.)

 

And I disagree with the suggestion that there's never any use for aggressive stance. In a team with a good tanker leaving your pets in defensive means they won't be doing anything upwards of half the time because nothing is attacking you.

 

Ultimately, bodyguard mode just needs to be completely reworked. I shouldn't have to open myself up to massive damage spikes to get my pets to stop ignoring the mob right next to me because it's attacking the tanker rather than me. I get the potential for abuse, but the way it works right now is just... dumb.

Edited March 2, 2020 by nzer

[TheSpiritFox]

3 hours ago, Rumahu said:

Yeah that makes sense. I get that you're not technically supposed to always play in defensive mode, and by doing so and still "getting away with it" is sort of abusing the current system. However my take on attack my target/aggressive was to do exactly that:
Attack the target I specify, e.g. a boss or a target dishing out a ton of AoE damage.

And aggressive - shoot first, ask questions later. They'll actively engage new targets that have not entered combat with the mm or themselves. 

However look at it this way:
Passive.
Defensive.
Aggressive.

Passive: Almost never used. Only to ensure you can travel safely, minimize aggro, and to pull a low hp henchman off (of course I'd just let them die and re-summon them).

Aggressive: I honestly have no use for aggressive right now. By default it is only used for attacking a specific target... which you can do with them in defensive mode. It has even less utility than passive..

 

And then there's Defensive. It's the best stance not only because of the bodyguard bonus, but because it's the stance that objectively plays best for the player because the player has the most control over what their pets are doing WHILE continuing to do what they're designed to do: protect the player, deal some damage, and quite simply not die. 

Henchmen in defensive will fight back. They'll hold fire unless fired upon. They can also attack a specific target atm in defensive... So ultimately this is the only "real" stance in the game.

 

So I don't like having a potentially abusable system solely tied to the one stance in the archetype that feels best for me to play. Why do I have to sacrifice massive amounts of survivability by periodically disabling bodyguard mode just to have my minions respond? Can there be some sort of incentive/bonus for leaving BG mode?
Besides that, the only thing that really makes me feel like it would be 100% abusing the idea of bodyguard mode is if I was able to order them to attack my target AND I still received the bodyguard mode bonus... What do you guys think about making attack my target require aggressive stance/automatically switching them over, and potentially giving a reason to have your pets not be in defensive stance all the time? 

 

What's the current playstyle now post patch? To simply have my pets on defensive follow with the occasional attack my target and then goto-ing them out of patches and waiting for them to resume being.. henchmen? That sounds horribly dull without them jumping back and defending themselves, abusive system or not.

 

 

TL;DR: Ultimately my point is.. the AI should be responsive regardless, and I think it would be amazing if there was some incentive to leave bodyguard mode to help counter the idea of any potential abuse to bodyguard/the current system. Goal #1 is how can we balance control vs strength. 
What do you guys think?

 

Aggressive mode is useful in groups. You don't have to use bodyguard when you've got a tank and aggressive keeps them attacking other stuff when there's aggro on someone else without having to micromanage. 

[Rumahu]

12 hours ago, nzer said:

This isn't giving players a reason to not use defensive stance all the time, it's forcing them to use aggressive stance when they don't want to. Defensive attack my target already doesn't benefit from bodyguard mode, there's no reason to make this change. (Edit: I think I misread you on this part. If you're suggesting some kind of bonus for being in the other stances, that's an interesting idea that I think could have some merit. Defensive stance has bodyguard mode, so the other stances should have some benefit too. Though personally, I would prefer bodyguard be toned down and made to work in every stance, and maybe the stances be given some new bonuses. I still don't think attack my target should require aggressive stance, as it means you'd have to manually put them in defensive after the target dies if you want to replicate the current behavior.)

 

And I disagree with the suggestion that there's never any use for aggressive stance. In a team with a good tanker leaving your pets in defensive means they won't be doing anything upwards of half the time because nothing is attacking you.

 

Ultimately, bodyguard mode just needs to be completely reworked. I shouldn't have to open myself up to massive damage spikes to get my pets to stop ignoring the mob right next to me because it's attacking the tanker rather than me. I get the potential for abuse, but the way it works right now is just... dumb.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, edit included. I was hinting at bodyguard needing to be be completely reworked, and I completely agree with the damage spike issue upon switching stances. I currently get around that problem by only having several pets go on aggressive/attack my target and keep the rest in bodyguard mode so I don't become completely vulnerable, and then switching them back (and once again dealing with them idling) afterwards.

The only issue I have with mm's and teams is exactly what you said. They generally won't be getting shot at due to enemies being held/slowed/aggroed away... and thus will idle in defensive mode.

Which brings me to what Spiritfox said:

9 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

Aggressive mode is useful in groups. You don't have to use bodyguard when you've got a tank and aggressive keeps them attacking other stuff when there's aggro on someone else without having to micromanage. 

(Btw thanks for helping and rummaging through this TheSpiritFox)

But you also can't safely leave them in aggressive mode because your pets will generally go nuts and aggro additional mobs that the tanker simply can't handle due to aggro cap. This issue is mostly patched out now due to them trying to stay in supremacy range and not needing to run off to melee a target, but it can definitely still happen. Hence back to my original gripe, which is simply them being unresponsive when I try to reel them in or control them.
However that's a very good point as well - it's actually nice to play MM's now in groups because you don't need bodyguard mode, and you don't have to worry about them running off too much due to them trying to stay in supremacy range and goto. 

 

 

Bodyguard mode/stances are fairly weird, should definitely be cleaned up, and ultimately pets should be made to be more responsive regardless of stance. If it's forcibly taking control away from the player, it's bad design. I like how the pets are definitely smarter now and can handle themselves, and I like how I can come in and "manage them" myself... but I don't like being punished for it by having them idle. Defensive mode means exactly that - they're getting shot at, I'm getting shot at... Defend us!

[Scientist]

12 hours ago, nzer said:

And I disagree with the suggestion that there's never any use for aggressive stance. In a team with a good tanker leaving your pets in defensive means they won't be doing anything upwards of half the time because nothing is attacking you.

 

I also run into this as a /Traps MM sometimes, when I use Poison Trap and all the mobs start choking, or Caltrops and they are slow-mo running away, the pets will stop firing because nobody is attacking them or me.  

[Rumahu]

Messed with one of my mm's today and it DEFINITELY feels better if you play "hands off".. but I still notice a lot of idling if I stick any commands in there.

[Kommon]

I have played my MMs on Incarnate trials and TFs recently, and I haven't experienced any "idling" unless I or my henchmen were not under attack or I specifically wanted them to idle by rapidly hitting the Follow command.  Switching between Aggressive/Defensive and Attack My Target/GoTo/Stay doesn't produce any extra idling for me either.  What type of Masterminds do you play? Ranged or Melee henchmen?  I am very curious as so what is happening, and it would help to see it while playing.  What server do you play on? 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Kommon

[Rumahu]

Last time I saw it happen with thugs on Excelsior - I'll try to figure out the steps to recreate either later tonight or tomorrow after work - 6pm cst.

[Rumahu]

Made a video demoing it: https://youtu.be/HEeiJzlUXsc

I initially have them following in the video, toss a goto out, another goto, and then I alternate between goto and follow in the second half.

This is on the current beta branch, (Issue 26, Page 5 - Build 2).

 

EDIT: When they say "I'm comin'" or "Comin'" that's them switching to follow. My macros don't make it super clear what I'm doing, sorry!

Edited March 3, 2020 by Rumahu
Explanation of when to spot follow command.

[Kommon]

11 hours ago, Rumahu said:

Made a video demoing it: https://youtu.be/HEeiJzlUXsc

I initially have them following in the video, toss a goto out, another goto, and then I alternate between goto and follow in the second half.

This is on the current beta branch, (Issue 26, Page 5 - Build 2).

 

EDIT: When they say "I'm comin'" or "Comin'" that's them switching to follow. My macros don't make it super clear what I'm doing, sorry!

Thanks for this!  The pet responses make it clear enough for mastermind veterans, and the video really helps to see what you are experiencing. 

 

After you use GoTo the first time, it looks like the pets start attacking right after reaching the GoTo location.  After GoTo is used a second time, Follow is used right afterwards, so then the pets idle.  Same thing happened the third time.  The Follow idle has been in the game since BG mode was added on Live, but it only happens after a Follow command is issued in any stance.  It's that last Follow command, not GoTo, is what is causing them to idle like that.  Is there is a reason you used Follow right after using GoTo?  I can see using Follow BEFORE using GoTo, to stop the henchmen from attacking and immediately moving to said location, like Dechs describes in the post you linked earlier:

Quote

Issue a Follow command first, then do your second Go To. There's something about Follow that "resets" the AI and what it was targeting. The problem is that Follow also seems to enforce some sort of idle loop for a few seconds, during which your henchmen will not respond to combat. To get around that, you issue the GoTo command immediately afterwards, sending them where you want them to be without the pesky "I need to punch him in the face" taking over (at least, for a little while).

 

When engaging mobs, once you start using GoTo, it's better to keep your henchmen in that stance (or use GoTo again if you need to move them around the field at the current engagement) until you are ready to move on, at which point you can issue Follow without any idling issues, as all mobs should be dead and gone.  Just a side note, if you try to tell your henchmen to GoTo a location that is relatively close to their current location, they won't move.  If you want them to reposition ever so slightly, you may need to tell them to GoTo a father point and them pull them back via another GoTo to the spot you actually want them.  The only problem with GoTo is, after the last round of MM changes, that melee henchmen, like the Bruiser, will not close into melee range if they have GoTo used on them, where as before, the Bruiser would GoTo a spot and then close in and start smacking people around.  TheSpiritFox's thread about changing this will behavior is what I am talking about.  Hopefully they can make it so melee pets can still run around after using GoTo, like before then change, but still be leashed to a certain distance from the mastermind while at the same time gluing range pets in place, like how it works right now post-change.  As for Stay, that command should be able to glue all types of henchmen in place, both melee and range.  That's just my opinion though.

 

Hope that help.

[EyeLuvBooks]

Let me preface this with the fact that I play MMs a LOT. By far my fave AT and the one I spend the most time on in actual play. That being said:

 

1) The idea that we're 'abusing the system' by switching to or from Bodyguard mode is nuts. The system is DESIGNED to be played this way. Why else give us the multiple stances? The first thing I do when I roll a new MM is edit the three primary control button and then add a Goto Aggressive (called Fetch), a Dismiss (when most of them are gone anyway or I'm going to do crafting or other non-combat things) and a Stay (goto Passive) because for some reason telling pets to stay somewhere in Defensive mode doesn't work.

 

2) I would STRONGLY urge developers to think it over before doing anything with the MM AI that makes them LESS effective (like messing with Defensive mode). MMs have a steep enough learning curve and the various Pet sets all have enough issues already without handicapping the AT any more.

 

Pets are what the MM AT is all about. We need to consider how to get MORE out of them...not less.

[Rumahu]

Kommon - thanks for the detailed response! It was actually very helpful and gave me a couple ideas. Appreciate it.

 

2 hours ago, Kommon said:

Is there is a reason you used Follow right after using GoTo?

I'm trying to break the controls by switching back and forth. I don't play like that at all on any of my mm's.

 

2 hours ago, Kommon said:

When engaging mobs, once you start using GoTo, it's better to keep your henchmen in that stance (or use GoTo again if you need to move them around the field at the current engagement) until you are ready to move on, at which point you can issue Follow without any idling issues, as all mobs should be dead and gone. 

I believe THIS is the issue I had in game. What I would do is I would goto, to a spot, and then have a "fuzzy goto" to my position via follow (when it should've been another goto) and then sometimes had a go to after that because they'd be idling because of the follow order. 

I know at some point goto wasn't acting right, but I'm sure it had something to do with a recently used follow command rather than goto itself. The video shows that it switches back and forth between the two pretty easily, but I'm sure there was some specific scenario, e.g. they didn't have to really move for the goto's in the video.

Thanks for this - I'll mess with this more ASAP and see if I can spot anything that might break that and record it.

 

9 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

1) The idea that we're 'abusing the system' by switching to or from Bodyguard mode is nuts. The system is DESIGNED to be played this way. Why else give us the multiple stances? The first thing I do when I roll a new MM is edit the three primary control button and then add a Goto Aggressive (called Fetch), a Dismiss (when most of them are gone anyway or I'm going to do crafting or other non-combat things) and a Stay (goto Passive) because for some reason telling pets to stay somewhere in Defensive mode doesn't work.

100% agree. I use bind text files and numpad controls with adjusted bindings for my mouse to help handle more fine handling (like the goto's/follow in the video)... and I definitely think we should be able to switch into and out of bodyguard mode like I mentioned earlier.

 

10 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

2) I would STRONGLY urge developers to think it over before doing anything with the MM AI that makes them LESS effective (like messing with Defensive mode). MMs have a steep enough learning curve and the various Pet sets all have enough issues already without handicapping the AT any more.

Hence removing the idle time on follow if possible so they're more responsive. Everything in my posts ultimately point to this change. I think removing that follow idle time and making bodyguard more clear as to what is it will definitely help the class out in the long run. Everything else was me simply raising ideas/points for discussion.

 

11 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

Let me preface this with the fact that I play MMs a LOT. By far my fave AT and the one I spend the most time on in actual play. That being said:

Love to have you here!

 

 

Lastly - in the video I used a low lvl mm just so it's clearer to see what's happening... this doesn't mean I'm new to the AT or the game at all. Been playing since launch on live and mm was always my favorite but I was TERRIBLE at it until CoH came back and I really dived into the AT and noticed a couple finicky things that have luckily gotten patched out, now it's just that follow idle time.

So while MM isn't my best class, it's my favorite and giving the reasons as to why I've dropped it every time in this thread... and it's just the previously clunky pet ai.

[nzer]

14 hours ago, Kommon said:

Hopefully they can make it so melee pets can still run around after using GoTo, like before then change, but still be leashed to a certain distance from the mastermind while at the same time gluing range pets in place

That's exactly what they're doing, a dev announced it in the thread TheSpiritFox linked and it's now up on the beta server.

 

11 hours ago, Rumahu said:

follow command rather than goto itself.

Follow forces henchmen to not attack for 10 seconds, so yes, the follow is the problem.

Edited March 5, 2020 by nzer

[Rumahu]

21 minutes ago, nzer said:

Follow forces henchmen to not attack for 10 seconds, so yes, the follow is the problem.

Time to remove that then if possible! Sounds like that's the last major "control" gripe.