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  1. They were actively getting shot at for a couple seconds multiple times in the video while in defensive follow, and goto properly resets them, yup! The point of this was to highlight that there IS a delay on responding when switched into follow, as highlighted by the footage. The goal of that video was to try to make the ai simply lock up and do nothing because the idling itself exists. See this thread:
  2. Any news regarding getting rid of the follow-mode idle? Video [39 seconds] Here: https://youtu.be/HEeiJzlUXsc See stance in pet menu
  3. Discussed in this thread: Turns out it's basically still the "follow" command. Here's a video showing what's happening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEeiJzlUXsc
  4. Time to remove that then if possible! Sounds like that's the last major "control" gripe.
  5. Kommon - thanks for the detailed response! It was actually very helpful and gave me a couple ideas. Appreciate it. I'm trying to break the controls by switching back and forth. I don't play like that at all on any of my mm's. I believe THIS is the issue I had in game. What I would do is I would goto, to a spot, and then have a "fuzzy goto" to my position via follow (when it should've been another goto) and then sometimes had a go to after that because they'd be idling because of the follow order. I know at some point goto wasn't acting right, but I'm sure it had something to do with a recently used follow command rather than goto itself. The video shows that it switches back and forth between the two pretty easily, but I'm sure there was some specific scenario, e.g. they didn't have to really move for the goto's in the video. Thanks for this - I'll mess with this more ASAP and see if I can spot anything that might break that and record it. 100% agree. I use bind text files and numpad controls with adjusted bindings for my mouse to help handle more fine handling (like the goto's/follow in the video)... and I definitely think we should be able to switch into and out of bodyguard mode like I mentioned earlier. Hence removing the idle time on follow if possible so they're more responsive. Everything in my posts ultimately point to this change. I think removing that follow idle time and making bodyguard more clear as to what is it will definitely help the class out in the long run. Everything else was me simply raising ideas/points for discussion. Love to have you here! Lastly - in the video I used a low lvl mm just so it's clearer to see what's happening... this doesn't mean I'm new to the AT or the game at all. Been playing since launch on live and mm was always my favorite but I was TERRIBLE at it until CoH came back and I really dived into the AT and noticed a couple finicky things that have luckily gotten patched out, now it's just that follow idle time. So while MM isn't my best class, it's my favorite and giving the reasons as to why I've dropped it every time in this thread... and it's just the previously clunky pet ai.
  6. Made a video demoing it: https://youtu.be/HEeiJzlUXsc I initially have them following in the video, toss a goto out, another goto, and then I alternate between goto and follow in the second half. This is on the current beta branch, (Issue 26, Page 5 - Build 2). EDIT: When they say "I'm comin'" or "Comin'" that's them switching to follow. My macros don't make it super clear what I'm doing, sorry!
  7. Last time I saw it happen with thugs on Excelsior - I'll try to figure out the steps to recreate either later tonight or tomorrow after work - 6pm cst.
  8. Messed with one of my mm's today and it DEFINITELY feels better if you play "hands off".. but I still notice a lot of idling if I stick any commands in there.
  9. I agree with pretty much everything you said, edit included. I was hinting at bodyguard needing to be be completely reworked, and I completely agree with the damage spike issue upon switching stances. I currently get around that problem by only having several pets go on aggressive/attack my target and keep the rest in bodyguard mode so I don't become completely vulnerable, and then switching them back (and once again dealing with them idling) afterwards. The only issue I have with mm's and teams is exactly what you said. They generally won't be getting shot at due to enemies being held/slowed/aggroed away... and thus will idle in defensive mode. Which brings me to what Spiritfox said: (Btw thanks for helping and rummaging through this TheSpiritFox) But you also can't safely leave them in aggressive mode because your pets will generally go nuts and aggro additional mobs that the tanker simply can't handle due to aggro cap. This issue is mostly patched out now due to them trying to stay in supremacy range and not needing to run off to melee a target, but it can definitely still happen. Hence back to my original gripe, which is simply them being unresponsive when I try to reel them in or control them. However that's a very good point as well - it's actually nice to play MM's now in groups because you don't need bodyguard mode, and you don't have to worry about them running off too much due to them trying to stay in supremacy range and goto. Bodyguard mode/stances are fairly weird, should definitely be cleaned up, and ultimately pets should be made to be more responsive regardless of stance. If it's forcibly taking control away from the player, it's bad design. I like how the pets are definitely smarter now and can handle themselves, and I like how I can come in and "manage them" myself... but I don't like being punished for it by having them idle. Defensive mode means exactly that - they're getting shot at, I'm getting shot at... Defend us!
  10. Yeah that makes sense. I get that you're not technically supposed to always play in defensive mode, and by doing so and still "getting away with it" is sort of abusing the current system. However my take on attack my target/aggressive was to do exactly that: Attack the target I specify, e.g. a boss or a target dishing out a ton of AoE damage. And aggressive - shoot first, ask questions later. They'll actively engage new targets that have not entered combat with the mm or themselves. However look at it this way: Passive. Defensive. Aggressive. Passive: Almost never used. Only to ensure you can travel safely, minimize aggro, and to pull a low hp henchman off (of course I'd just let them die and re-summon them). Aggressive: I honestly have no use for aggressive right now. By default it is only used for attacking a specific target... which you can do with them in defensive mode. It has even less utility than passive.. And then there's Defensive. It's the best stance not only because of the bodyguard bonus, but because it's the stance that objectively plays best for the player because the player has the most control over what their pets are doing WHILE continuing to do what they're designed to do: protect the player, deal some damage, and quite simply not die. Henchmen in defensive will fight back. They'll hold fire unless fired upon. They can also attack a specific target atm in defensive... So ultimately this is the only "real" stance in the game. So I don't like having a potentially abusable system solely tied to the one stance in the archetype that feels best for me to play. Why do I have to sacrifice massive amounts of survivability by periodically disabling bodyguard mode just to have my minions respond? Can there be some sort of incentive/bonus for leaving BG mode? Besides that, the only thing that really makes me feel like it would be 100% abusing the idea of bodyguard mode is if I was able to order them to attack my target AND I still received the bodyguard mode bonus... What do you guys think about making attack my target require aggressive stance/automatically switching them over, and potentially giving a reason to have your pets not be in defensive stance all the time? What's the current playstyle now post patch? To simply have my pets on defensive follow with the occasional attack my target and then goto-ing them out of patches and waiting for them to resume being.. henchmen? That sounds horribly dull without them jumping back and defending themselves, abusive system or not. TL;DR: Ultimately my point is.. the AI should be responsive regardless, and I think it would be amazing if there was some incentive to leave bodyguard mode to help counter the idea of any potential abuse to bodyguard/the current system. Goal #1 is how can we balance control vs strength. What do you guys think?
  11. Hmm - I'll fiddle with it soon and see about simply dropping follow. That makes sense.. And unfortunately I don't recall 100% well enough if the delay in responding after goto's removal was always after some travel time. Why would that be intended though? Why make controls in a game less responsive than they need to be? It's like playing a platformer. The ones that feel good are the ones where your character doesn't slide after they land from a jump, but rather plant their feet solid on the ground and not slide at all. Realistic? Not really.. but it makes for a much better feeling game in terms of controls/feel.
  12. I pretty much always keep my pets in defensive stance with the occasional quick "attack my target" and reversal back to Def follow/goto. They used to keep the target in attack my target after I do it once or twice and then I'd resume bodyguard. Is there an argument to keep the pause after a stance change? Is it a restriction with the system that you know of? I already made a forum post about it a couple weeks ago: However that's in bug reports, not suggestions. Think I should re-create it in suggestions as well? Follow always made them "break" and do nothing, so I only used it to force them to recognize the "goto" pre-patch and almost never follow on its own. See Dechs' guide from live here: https://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2012/01/gd-mastermind.html He suggests you..: "Issue a Follow command first, then do your second Go To. There's something about Follow that "resets" the AI and what it was targeting. The problem is that Follow also seems to enforce some sort of idle loop for a few seconds, during which your henchmen will not respond to combat. To get around that, you issue the GoTo command immediately afterwards, sending them where you want them to be without the pesky "I need to punch him in the face" taking over (at least, for a little while)." That same concept is what I used pre patch. It now appears that the idle loop is in both follow AND the GoTo, where it used to be reset as Dechs suggested.
  13. I'm PUMPED that the AI is getting a serious do-over, there has been some amazing progress. Now all we need is for the pets to be more responsive in general. What about the delay after telling them to goto somewhere and them still idling for a couple seconds while getting shot at and not fighting? Both ranged and melee pets. For instance.. Since pets won't move out of burn patches now (but listen to Goto's. Perfect!), I need to use goto to get them to move them out of harms way. However once they arrive at the goto location and are out of any damage patch they idle and basically "turn off" for a couple seconds. Initially I figured "well of course they should idle - they're in defensive mode!".. but all of us are actively getting shot at - they should be defending me/themselves. I really hope that the whole "idling pets" issue is resolved, as it's ruining the archetype for me atm and it used to be my favorite back when I didn't know any better on live. Seriously go test it out - have them def/goto, follow, goto a couple times and see that they don't respond while under fire for a couple seconds. Am I missing something? Maybe I should be using aggressive stance more but then what's the point of defensive if they don't actually defend anything? /Rant - thanks guys.
  14. I noticed it and report this as well! It seems to be after they change stances, whereas when you tell them to follow/go defensive they don't respond.. regardless if they/you are being shot at. It was like that before the patch though, and it's why I quit playing mm lol.
  15. Currently upon changing into defensive stance, or after telling your pets to follow you, they idle and do nothing while the player or themselves take damage. Goto used to help "reset" the ai so they'd fight again.. however now it's very inconsistent. This is the last major "WHY IS THIS HAPPENING" frustrating AI bug with mm's.. afterwards they aren't terrible to play anymore! Let me know if I need to attach anything or whatnot.
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