Super Strength on Scrappers

[Stormwalker]

1 minute ago, Xion80 said:

Um...no. Anybody compared to a "Kryptonian" in terms of durability is not a scrapper.

 

Let's be honest. When you think of super strength. Spiderman isn't what comes to mind. 10 ton punches won't fold a Hulk, Thor, or Sentry. All who possess 100k punching power. Even with leverage he can pull maybe 25 tons.

 

90's X-Men Rouge was going toe to toe with the Juggernaut! She's a certified brute.

 

Captain America and Wolverine fall into the scrapper realm. They're  skilled in combat, but are not trading blows for to long with 100 ton tanks.

 

Spider-Man held up a skyscraper.  By himself.  He is unquestionably Super-Strength.  In fact, he's on the HIGH end of the super-strength scale, not the low end.  And he's absolutely a scrapper.

 

Again, the Metropolis Kid was NOT Kryptonian at that point in DC continuity.  He had tactile telekinesis in place of the usual invulnerability that the Kryptonians had (when they retconned him later he got proper invulnerability, and he was Kryptonian tough then, but very much not in his early days).  He was not durable on the same scale as the Kryptonians.  That was my entire point.  He was very much a more aggressive/less defensive fighter than the other "Super" characters, and he got the heck beaten out of him on more than a few occasions in his early days.  He was definitely a scrapper.  He also had the iconic scrapper temperament.

 

A number of people who were not as tough as Juggernaut went toe-to-toe with him for a while.  There is some variability between writers as to how tough characters are, this has always been a thing in comics.  People are as strong/tough as the plot demands.

 

You list Captain America and Wolverine as your scrapper examples, but neither one of them were invulnerable, and we have invulnerability as a scrapper set.  Therefore, scrapper durability clearly does go beyond your examples.

[Xion80]

10 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Considering you'd have to nerf Rage to give it to Scrappers (or at least, that seems to be what most people think), you'd have to nerf the crash, too.

 

That said, a Regenner would just pop MoG and be fine.  A Willpower scrapper would just pop Strength of Will and be fine.  An SR Scrapper could pop Elude and be fine (if they even take Elude, that is; most of my SR scrappers don't), the defense gain would more than offset the defense loss.  Similarly, Energy Aura and Overload.  Of course, that is just postponing the crash, but it should postpone it long enough to end the fight which is all that matters.

 

Dark Armor's Cloak of Fear would help offset it.  Not to mention the to-hit debuff Dark Armor provides.

 

It'd hurt for an Invlun scrapper (I don't suggest Unstoppable here because Unstoppable's crash is way too annoying), for sure, but we have inspirations for that.

 

And if we consider Incarnate powers, Barrier covers a multitude of sins.

Under perfect conditions...maybe. But we both know how this game gets down, and perfect conditions aren't always guaranteed. My regen scrapper has 12 reason why he shouldn't drop,  but even I get caught slippin from time to time. That crash speaks for itself.  I just don't see it going well for a toon with a 75 resistance cap. Factor in a random cascade def failure with +4 Dark Wolf, or Mage of Death neg energy explosion. On top of the double rage crash.

[Stormwalker]

1 minute ago, Xion80 said:

Under perfect conditions...maybe. But we both know how this game gets down, and perfect conditions aren't always guaranteed. My regen scrapper has 12 reason why he shouldn't drop,  but even I get caught slippin from time to time. That crash speaks for itself.  I just don't see it going well for a toon with a 75 resistance cap. Factor in a random cascade def failure with +4 Dark Wolf, or Mage of Death neg energy explosion. On top of the double rage crash.

 

1. SR isn't vulnerable to Cascade Defense Failure.  It has 95% def debuff resist.  If it can stay above the soft-cap (and there are plenty of ways for it to do so), there is no issue.
2. EA and SD aren't completely immune to Cascade Defense Faiulre, but it's not that hard to avoid on those sets if you are on your game.
3. Regen is a poor example, because it's inherently fragile.  I've made many previous posts in-depth on this subject before, so I'm not going to rehash it.  This is why Regenners take things like Rune of Protection and Shadow Meld.  That said, Regen still has the single best answer to a Rage crash in MoG, because MoG lasts longer than the crash does, and far more than offsets it.
4. Speaking of Shadow Meld, that solves the Rage crash by itself if you take it.
5. Resistance caps only really come into play if you are below the defense softcap.  If you have an answer to staying above the softcap during the Rage crash, the resist caps won't matter.  There are plenty of solutions for this problem available.  You just have to account for it in your build or carry lots of purples.
6. You don't have to double-stack Rage.  That's a choice.  You can just wait until after the crash to fire it off again.

And, as I said before, if you're convinced Rage is that much of a problem for scrappers, then replace it with Build Up and buff the rest of the set so it isn't underpowered.  Problem solved.

[Xion80]

7 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Spider-Man held up a skyscraper.  By himself.  He is unquestionably Super-Strength.  In fact, he's on the HIGH end of the super-strength scale, not the low end.  And he's absolutely a scrapper.

 

Again, the Metropolis Kid was NOT Kryptonian at that point in DC continuity.  He had tactile telekinesis in place of the usual invulnerability that the Kryptonians had (when they retconned him later he got proper invulnerability, and he was Kryptonian tough then, but very much not in his early days).  He was not durable on the same scale as the Kryptonians.  That was my entire point.  He was very much a more aggressive/less defensive fighter than the other "Super" characters, and he got the heck beaten out of him on more than a few occasions in his early days.  He was definitely a scrapper.  He also had the iconic scrapper temperament.

 

A number of people who were not as tough as Juggernaut went toe-to-toe with him for a while.  There is some variability between writers as to how tough characters are, this has always been a thing in comics.  People are as strong/tough as the plot demands.

 

You list Captain America and Wolverine as your scrapper examples, but neither one of them were invulnerable, and we have invulnerability as a scrapper set.  Therefore, scrapper durability clearly does go beyond your examples.

He held up one support beam iirc. 10 tons of strength isn't "super" in terms of other folks with super strength. Now, to regular ppl he's super. To other super strength users He's...annoying?

 

Who, classifies in your mind as a scrapper that traded punches with the Juggernaut?

 

I mentioned them only as a reference to scrappers. Their caliber of hero comes to mind for the average person. Enhanced strength comes to mind. Resilience comes to mind. Who comes to mind when folks see  SS/Invulnerability? I bet it wasn't Spiderman! Even if scrappers had the option. I bet it's not Spiderman. Now if you made a Brute (SS/SR) of Black suit Spiderman, I can see that. The symbiote stay messing with his anger.

[Xion80]

34 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

1. SR isn't vulnerable to Cascade Defense Failure.  It has 95% def debuff resist.  If it can stay above the soft-cap (and there are plenty of ways for it to do so), there is no issue.
2. EA and SD aren't completely immune to Cascade Defense Faiulre, but it's not that hard to avoid on those sets if you are on your game.
3. Regen is a poor example, because it's inherently fragile.  I've made many previous posts in-depth on this subject before, so I'm not going to rehash it.  This is why Regenners take things like Rune of Protection and Shadow Meld.  That said, Regen still has the single best answer to a Rage crash in MoG, because MoG lasts longer than the crash does, and far more than offsets it.
4. Speaking of Shadow Meld, that solves the Rage crash by itself if you take it.
5. Resistance caps only really come into play if you are below the defense softcap.  If you have an answer to staying above the softcap during the Rage crash, the resist caps won't matter.  There are plenty of solutions for this problem available.  You just have to account for it in your build or carry lots of purples.
6. You don't have to double-stack Rage.  That's a choice.  You can just wait until after the crash to fire it off again.

And, as I said before, if you're convinced Rage is that much of a problem for scrappers, then replace it with Build Up and buff the rest of the set so it isn't underpowered.  Problem solved.

My OP was for Street justice. I stand beside that for scrappers, and it works just fine. If I want SS, I have a solid Brute option. All the examples given are post 50, decked out build conditions.

 

SR does experience cascade def failure. Iirc,  rage unlocks at lvl 26 or 28. 95% DDR isn't even on the table at that point. Resist cap are a factor for SR, as bosses punch right through that 75% when it caps out.

 

 The Rage reputation when you use it on the way up is common knowldege. "Candy" or not, Rage is crippling no matter the AT. And having "purple candy" isn't always an option on a huge map. It's a sure fire way to see that toon the shelf, If you can't stomach the trip to 50.

Edited Friday at 07:05 PM by Xion80

[Stormwalker]

44 minutes ago, Xion80 said:

He held up one support beam iirc. 10 tons of strength isn't "super" in terms of other folks with super strength. Now, to regular ppl he's super. To other super strength users He's...annoying?

 

Who, classifies in your mind as a scrapper that traded punches with the Juggernaut?

 

I mentioned them only as a reference to scrappers. Their caliber of hero comes to mind for the average person. Enhanced strength comes to mind. Resilience comes to mind. Who comes to mind when folks see  SS/Invulnerability? I bet it wasn't Spiderman! Even if scrappers had the option. I bet it's not Spiderman. Now if you made a Brute (SS/SR) of Black suit Spiderman, I can see that. The symbiote stay messing with his anger.

 

If you don't think being able to lift 10 tons is "Super Strength", I don't know what to tell you.  That's only... 20 times the highest deadlift ever recorded by a human (which is just over half a ton at 1104 pounds, by Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson in 2020).  Also, Peter has been stronger than that at times, they're not very consistent about just how strong he is (as with most comic-book characters).

 

Frankly, CoH characters don't hit hard enough for the kind of Super Strength that Superman and the Hulk have in any case.  Peter is far stronger than needed to deal out the kind of damage an SS scrapper would deal in game.  He'd have to hold back a lot (as he does in the comics, consistently).

 

In fact, if I go outside of comic books and into the realm of anime, *every single one* of the Knight Sabers from Bubblegum Crisis has super strength from their hardsuits (yes, even Nene, though she doesn't really use it), and Linna Yamazaki is definitely a Scrapper.  Priss is pretty much a Scrapper with a snipe (because she has a railgun, but she usually prefers to get up close and personal, and in fact her right gauntlet has a fold-out brace specifically to enable her to punch things with it without risking injuring her hand).  In fact, their hardsuits were the very inspiration for my SS/Inv Tanker in-game (and a Scrapper would represent her concept much more accurately).  Oh, yeah, and they've taken hits hard enough to leave craters on impact, so they're tough enough to take the big hits, too (but unlike someone like Superman, they do take damage from those hits, so they aren't Tankers). 

• Priss is pretty definitively a Super Strength/Invulnerability scrapper with an Equipped Weapons epic pool to give her the Railgun snipe and Knuckle Bomber explosive attack.
• Linna is a Super Strength/Super Reflexes scrapper (her suit is less armored and more agile than Priss') with an Equipped Weapons epic pool to give her the Ribbon Cutters and Knuckle Bomber.  She's definitely invested in Tough, however.
• Sylia has superhuman strength in her suit as well, but she prefers to attack with her fold-out swords, so she's effectively Claws as a primary instead, and she gets Laser Cannon from her epic pool.  She also, of course, gets the Leadership pool.
• Nene is an Electronic Warfare/Laser Blast Defender who has only taken two attacks from her secondary and *has* strength amplification in her suit, but never uses it.
• They all have (thruster-assisted) Super Jump as their travel power.  Sylia may also have Hover.

And before you try to say that power suits don't count?  Technology is an origin, and parts to make power suits absolutely exist in game.

 

So, basically, it seems to me that the reason you don't think Scrappers can have Super Strength is you equate "Super Strength" with a VASTLY higher degree of strength than is necessary to produce the effects of "Super Strength" in game.  That's a semantic argument over the definition of "Super Strength", and not one we're likely to come to an agreement on.  I'm just going to point at what Super Strength actually does in game, and point out that there are plenty of Scrappers capable of meeting that requirement.

 

Also, I'm just going to point out that Street Justice does NOT cover superhuman strength.  It was specifically, according to the dev Q&A on these very forums, inspired by Batman, who does not have any kind of superhuman strength.

Edited Friday at 07:16 PM by Stormwalker

[Stormwalker]

32 minutes ago, Xion80 said:

My OP was for Street justice. I stand beside that for scrappers, and it works just fine. If I want SS, I have a solid Brute option.

 

As I have noted in my other post, Street Justice is not super strength.  It was inspired by Batman. 

 

I have a Street Justice scrapper.  Her only superpowers are speed, enhanced toughness, and regeneration.  Her strength isn't amplified at all.  The set suits her very well.  It doesn't do for  someone with raw physical strength that exceeds human capacities by a large margin (an order of magnitude or more).  SS is the only set we have for that.

 

And as I've said before, I want it for scrappers, because I have concepts that are better suited to an SS scrapper than a Brute or Tanker.

Edited Friday at 07:10 PM by Stormwalker
removed extraneous line break

[Xion80]

2 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

If you don't think being able to lift 10 tons is "Super Strength", I don't know what to tell you.  That's only... 20 times the highest deadlift ever recorded by a human (which is just over half a ton at 1104 pounds, by Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson in 2020).  Also, Peter has been stronger than that at times, they're not very consistent about just how strong he is (as with most comic-book characters).

 

Frankly, CoH characters don't hit hard enough for the kind of Super Strength that Superman and the Hulk have in any case.  Peter is far stronger than needed to deal out the kind of damage an SS scrapper would deal in game.  He'd have to hold back a lot (as he does in the comics, consistently).

 

In fact, if I go outside of comic books and into the realm of anime, *every single one* of the Knight Sabers from Bubblegum Crisis has super strength from their hardsuits (yes, even Nene, though she doesn't really use it), and Linna Yamazaki is definitely a Scrapper.  Priss is pretty much a Scrapper with a snipe (because she has a railgun, but she usually prefers to get up close and personal, and in fact her right gauntlet has a fold-out brace specifically to enable her to punch things with it without risking injuring her hand).  In fact, their hardsuits were the very inspiration for my SS/Inv Tanker in-game (and a Scrapper would represent her concept much more accurately).  Oh, yeah, and they've taken hits hard enough to leave craters on impact, so they're tough enough to take the big hits, too (but unlike someone like Superman, they do take damage from those hits, so they aren't Tankers). 

• Priss is pretty definitively a Super Strength/Invulnerability scrapper with an Equipped Weapons epic pool to give her the Railgun snipe and Knuckle Bomber explosive attack.
• Linna is a Super Strength/Super Reflexes scrapper (her suit is less armored and more agile than Priss') with an Equipped Weapons epic pool to give her the Ribbon Cutters and Knuckle Bomber.  She's definitely invested in Tough, however.
• Sylia has superhuman strength in her suit as well, but she prefers to attack with her fold-out swords, so she's effectively Claws as a primary instead, and she gets Laser Cannon from her epic pool.  She also, of course, gets the Leadership pool.
• Nene is an Electronic Warfare/Laser Blast Defender who *has* strength amplification in her suit, but never uses it.
• They all have (thruster-assisted) Super Jump as their travel power.

And before you try to say that power suits don't count?  Technology is an origin, and parts to make power suits absolutely exist in game.

 

So, basically, it seems to me that the reason you don't think Scrappers can have Super Strength is you equate "Super Strength" with a VASTLY higher degree of strength than is necessary to produce the effects of "Super Strength" in game.  That's a semantic argument over the definition of "Super Strength", and not one we're likely to come to an agreement on.  I'm just going to point at what Super Strength actually does in game, and point out that there are plenty of Scrappers capable of meeting that requirement.

 

Also, I'm just going to point out that Street Justice does NOT cover superhuman strength.  It was specifically, according to the dev Q&A on these very forums, inspired by Batman, who does not have any kind of superhuman strength.

Spider-Man couldn't even break free from titanium chains. They had Spiderman yelling out he learned his lesson, as a gun was put to his head. That's not a problem for super strength type.

 

I already said he's "super" in terms of regular people. Now put him in a room with other Super Strength users and he's just a kid.  He's not knocking no head off of any SS users looking for that smoke. He's really good at using leverage to amplify what he can do most of the time, but he's not a Super Strength icon no matter how ya spin it.

 

I can't comment on the anime,  so I'll stay in my lane on that part.

[Stormwalker]

3 minutes ago, Xion80 said:

Spider-Man couldn't even break free from titanium chains. They had Spiderman yelling out he learned his lesson, as a gun was put to his head. That's not a problem for super strength type.

 

As I said, Marvel has not been very consistent about how they depict his strength.  This is not uncommon in comic books, as characters get re-interpreted every time a new writer picks up the character.   Some writers put him well into the Super Strength realm.

 

Now, I will give you that there is ONE power in SS that is probably beyond Peter, and that's Hand Clap.  But that just means he didn't take that power (many SS characters don't).

Edited Friday at 07:22 PM by Stormwalker

[Xion80]

37 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

As I said, Marvel has not been very consistent about how they depict his strength.  This is not uncommon in comic books, as characters get re-interpreted every time a new writer picks up the character.   Some writers put him well into the Super Strength realm.

 

Now, I will give you that there is ONE power in SS that is probably beyond Peter, and that's Hand Clap.  But that just means he didn't take that power (many SS characters don't).

Foot stomp as well. I didn't say I didn't wanna see SS on a scrapper. I said Stj fits the scrapper bill, even if equates to Batman.

 

They may botch consistency with many things, but Super Strength isn't one of them. Every Super Strength icon based hero has that might on full display. Hulk,Thing, Thor, Capt Marvel, Juggernaut, Sentry, Hyperion, Heracles, Rhino, Luke Cage, Strong Guy, Colossus, and Gladiator. No reader would ever get their strength confused with the likes of Spiderman. When you mention super strength. This is the standard most gravitate to. 10 tons is amazing, but there are levels to this.

Edited Friday at 07:58 PM by Xion80

[Stormwalker]

4 minutes ago, Xion80 said:

Foot stomp as well.

 

The way Spidey has been written by some writers at least, Foot Stomp is within his capabilities (only just, but still within it).

 

Also, the Marvel strength ranking on their website doesn't list Peter at 10 tons.  It lists him at "10 tons minimum".  Whereas most of the other characters get a set value.  This is basically Marvel admitting that some of their writers have written him quite a bit stronger than that.

 

Bear in mind, most of my comics collection is pretty old-school.  It hails from the '90's, mostly.   So my interpretation of characters tends to hail from that age.  Marvel was a pretty free-wheeling with the power levels back then, though not quite as much as DC has been at times.)

 

Also, you mentioned Luke Cage?  His durability is only a 5 on the Marvel scale.  That's "Bulletproof" - it's the same category as Reed Richards and Emma Frost.  Pretty much in the Scrapper durability range.

[Xion80]

50 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

As I have noted in my other post, Street Justice is not super strength.  It was inspired by Batman. 

 

I have a Street Justice scrapper.  Her only superpowers are speed, enhanced toughness, and regeneration.  Her strength isn't amplified at all.  The set suits her very well.  It doesn't do for  someone with raw physical strength that exceeds human capacities by a large margin (an order of magnitude or more).  SS is the only set we have for that.

 

And as I've said before, I want it for scrappers, because I have concepts that are better suited to an SS scrapper than a Brute or Tanker.

I get it if you have concepts. But I will say that SS goes beyond just dealing out punishment with your might. You have to have a body that can withstand the kind of issues that come with super strength. That right there is where the scrapper falls short.

 

The scrapper numbers are the lowest of the melee types across the board. It can be match in resistance by a dedicated squishy.

[Excraft]

2 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

Spider-Man held up a skyscraper.  By himself.  He is unquestionably Super-Strength.  In fact, he's on the HIGH end of the super-strength scale, not the low end.

 

A minor nitpick - no, Spider-Man is most definitely not on the "high end" of super strength levels.  Marvel puts him at maxing out in the 10 ton range.  That's putting him in the same strength range as Beast.  That's not even anywhere remotely close to characters like the Hulk, Thor, Hyperion, Sentry or Gladiator who are at the high-end of the scale. 

 

Totally agree Spider-Man is a scrapper though.

[Excraft]

6 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

Also, the Marvel strength ranking on their website doesn't list Peter at 10 tons.  It lists him at "10 tons minimum". 

 

Well no, it clearly says "Spider-Man’s strength and agility stand far above those of the average human, allowing him to lift nearly 10 tons".   Note the word "nearly".  Source.

[Stormwalker]

1 minute ago, Excraft said:

 

A minor nitpick - no, Spider-Man is most definitely not on the "high end" of super strength levels.  Marvel puts him at maxing out in the 10 ton range.  That's putting him in the same strength range as Beast.  That's not even anywhere remotely close to characters like the Hulk, Thor, Hyperion, Sentry or Gladiator who are at the high-end of the scale. 

 

Totally agree Spider-Man is a scrapper though.

 

The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe says "10 tons minimum".

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, Stormwalker said:

As I have noted in my other post, Street Justice is not super strength.  It was inspired by Batman. 

 

Batman is more of a martial artist than a street justice type character. 

[Stormwalker]

6 minutes ago, Xion80 said:

I get it if you have concepts. But I will say that SS goes beyond just dealing out punishment with your might. You have to have a body that can withstand the kind of issues that come with super strength. That right there is where the scrapper falls short.

 

The scrapper numbers are the lowest of the melee types across the board. It can be match in resistance by a dedicated squishy.

 

This is back to the semantic argument.  You're defining Super Strength in a way that restricts its scope in ways the game doesn't.

 

Again, we're not likely to agree on this count.  Semantic arguments, in the end, tend to go around in circles.

[Stormwalker]

3 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Batman is more of a martial artist than a street justice type character. 

 

The original CoH devs disagree with you on that count, apparently.

 

Though, I should say, this is another case where writers are not very consistent.  Some writers write Batman with a very highly technical combat style.  Others write him being more brutal (a la the Arkham games).  Street Justice is more akin to the latter.

Edited Friday at 08:20 PM by Stormwalker

[Excraft]

Just now, Stormwalker said:

The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe says "10 tons minimum".

 

The official Marvel website says differently.  So does my Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe from the 1980s.  All of these characters are subject to the whim of the writers, some of whom way overpower certain characters, such as Wolverine. 

 

In general, Spider-Man has been at the 10 ton range for decades.  He's not on the same level as Hulk or Thor.

[Excraft]

1 minute ago, Stormwalker said:

The original CoH devs disagree with you on that count, apparently.

 

Good for them.  If they want to disregard decades of lore that have Bruce Wayne traveling around the world learning and mastering many different martial arts, more power to them. 

[Xion80]

10 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

The way Spidey has been written by some writers at least, Foot Stomp is within his capabilities (only just, but still within it).

 

Also, the Marvel strength ranking on their website doesn't list Peter at 10 tons.  It lists him at "10 tons minimum".  Whereas most of the other characters get a set value.  This is basically Marvel admitting that some of their writers have written him quite a bit stronger than that.

 

Bear in mind, most of my comics collection is pretty old-school.  It hails from the '90's, mostly.   So my interpretation of characters tends to hail from that age.  Marvel was a pretty free-wheeling with the power levels back then, though not quite as much as DC has been at times.)

 

Also, you mentioned Luke Cage?  His durability is only a 5 on the Marvel scale.  That's "Bulletproof" - it's the same category as Reed Richards and Emma Frost.  Pretty much in the Scrapper durability range.

Mmmm Luke is much greater....

[Stormwalker]

1 minute ago, Excraft said:

 

Good for them.  If they want to disregard decades of lore that have Bruce Wayne traveling around the world learning and mastering many different martial arts, more power to them. 

 

Quite a few of DC's writers have disregarded that part of the lore, too.

 

Mind you, my preferred Batman IS more of a martial artist, so I don't disagree with you on this count.  Though, frankly, he's closer to Street Justice than he is to CoH's Martial Arts set which is almost all kicks.  He kinda falls in between them.

 

That said, this is a sidetrack.  My actual point was that the CoH devs based Street Justice on their idea of how Batman would fight - which is to say, they intended it to reflect someone who did NOT have superhuman strength, rather than someone who does.

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, Xion80 said:

Spider-Man couldn't even break free from titanium chains.

 

Yup.  Spider-Man isn't at the high end of the strength scale. He's never lifted skyscrapers by one corner or held entire planets together.

 

[Stormwalker]

Ultimately, I'm done arguing on this count for one simple reason:  the entire argument comes down to how you define "Super Strength".  Since we do not agree on how we define it, it's impossible for us to come to agreement on the subject.  I consider someone who is 10-20 times stronger than any human to have Super Strength.  That doesn't meet your criteria.  As long as we disagree on that point?  We'll never agree on whether Scrappers should have it.

 

There's no point in arguing about it further.  We're just going in circles.

Edited Friday at 08:32 PM by Stormwalker

[biostem]

Maybe what we need is an "enhanced strength" set for scrappers - exactly the same as SS, just renamed and with tweaked damage/recharge numbers, and possibly some other set/power mechanics...  😏