Super Strength on Scrappers

[Xion80]

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

 

Actually, yes it does refute your statement.  Why else would Iron Man build and use an armor designed specifically for stealth?  Yes, Spider-Man does creep around some of the time.  Other times he attacks head on, just like many other characters.  They'll all use stealth when the situation calls for it and its advantageous. 

You've given a thumbs down to clear evidence of spidey passing for a certified stalker. They creep most of the time, and have to fight head up after the initial blow, when there is more then one opponent. Sounds like spidey most of the time. I guess we disagree in that aspect.

 

"Ironman has a stealth suit". True, but Tony isn't starting most of his battles from a stealth position. His personality won't  allow it. Spidey on the other hand....certified!

[Xion80]

38 minutes ago, Xion80 said:

You've given a thumbs down to clear evidence of spidey passing for a certified stalker. They creep most of the time, and have to fight head up after the initial blow, when there is more then one opponent. Sounds like spidey most of the time. I guess we disagree in that aspect.

 

"Ironman has a stealth suit". True, but Tony isn't starting most of his battles from a stealth position. His personality won't  allow it. Spidey on the other hand....certified!

 You can have stealth abilities as a blaster, but it doesn't make you a stalker. Let have a look at Ironman initiating combat. His "stealth" appears to be on the shelf like my Willpower scrapper. Why? Because stealth isn't his schtick!

 

Edited Saturday at 09:55 AM by Xion80

[Stormwalker]

Maybe take the argument about what AT Spider-Man is to another thread?  It's off-topic.

 

Also, putting fifty bazillion images in every post makes your comments hard to read.

[Xion80]

6 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

Maybe take the argument about what AT Spider-Man is to another thread?  It's off-topic.

 

Also, putting fifty bazillion images in every post makes your comments hard to read.

No problem. I'll dead that convo asap.

[Xion80]

28 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

Maybe take the argument about what AT Spider-Man is to another thread?  It's off-topic.

 

Also, putting fifty bazillion images in every post makes your comments hard to read.

Btw, the name you chose for scrapper version of SS is fitting, if it were to become a thing. I think Rage should be replaced with a power similar to AAO. "Reckless" perhaps? It gives damage buff like Rage, but the more you're surrounded, the higher those "Rage debuffs" climb as you become reckless.

 

Same Rage debuff, but spoon feeding the negative effect over time. Or, it could give half damage buff, half crit chance increase.

Edited Saturday at 11:00 AM by Xion80

[Excraft]

5 hours ago, Xion80 said:

You've given a thumbs down to clear evidence of spidey passing for a certified stalker. They creep most of the time, and have to fight head up after the initial blow, when there is more then one opponent. Sounds like spidey most of the time. I guess we disagree in that aspect.

 

I disagree with the notion that Spider-Man is a stalker 100% of the time.  Can he be "stalkerish" some  of the time?  Sure.  Is he that 100% of the time?  Absolutely not.  Even your own examples show this.  If you watch the film, Iron Man exclaims "underoos!" before Spider-Man leaps in.  In the pic you posted of him attacking Sam and Bucky, Bucky asks Sam "What the hell is that?" they both saw Spider-Man coming for them.  That isn't a stalker using stealth to approach and attack a target who doesn't even know they're there.  Same thing with your examples of Spider-Man "sneaking up and cracking jokes" to alert the bad guys of his presence.  He did that in the photo you posted of him with Sandman.  If he really wanted to, he could've taken out Sandman without him ever knowing he was even there.  He didn't.  That's not really being a stalker in the CoH sense.

 

Again, can Spider-Man use stealth and attack an unsuspecting target?  Sure, but so can other heroes and there are plenty of examples of this throughout comics history.  You're welcome to continue being of the opinion that Spider-Man is a pure stalker 100% of the time, but I will respectfully disagree because he quite clearly isn't. 

 

15 hours ago, Vanden said:

What you've come up with here is an entirely new set. If you put this on Scrappers and Stalkers, you've basically satisfied no one, because the players who want Super Strength on Scrappers and Stalkers still wouldn't have Super Strength, and the players who'd want this set on Brutes and Tankers are also left out in the cold.

 

If Super Strength gets ported to Scrappers and Stalkers, it won't have Rage, but otherwise it'll still be Super Strength.

 

I don't think it's such a bad idea to have a different version of a "Super Strength" type power set.  There are varying degrees of strength and the current version we have is (at least to me) more geared for a Hulk-type rage monster character.  There are characters who aren't quite that strong, but are still at super levels of strength and their strength isn't necessarily tied to their rage/anger level. 

 

I also don't see a reason why a new set would need to be exclusive to Scrappers and not be able to be ported to over to Tankers and Brutes.  I think it would a good thing to have some different flavors of super strength to accentuate less "super strong" characters.

[Xion80]

22 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

I disagree with the notion that Spider-Man is a stalker 100% of the time.  Can he be "stalkerish" some  of the time?  Sure.  Is he that 100% of the time?  Absolutely not.  Even your own examples show this.  If you watch the film, Iron Man exclaims "underoos!" before Spider-Man leaps in.  In the pic you posted of him attacking Sam and Bucky, Bucky asks Sam "What the hell is that?" they both saw Spider-Man coming for them.  That isn't a stalker using stealth to approach and attack a target who doesn't even know they're there.  Same thing with your examples of Spider-Man "sneaking up and cracking jokes" to alert the bad guys of his presence.  He did that in the photo you posted of him with Sandman.  If he really wanted to, he could've taken out Sandman without him ever knowing he was even there.  He didn't.  That's not really being a stalker in the CoH sense.

 

Again, can Spider-Man use stealth and attack an unsuspecting target?  Sure, but so can other heroes and there are plenty of examples of this throughout comics history.  You're welcome to continue being of the opinion that Spider-Man is a pure stalker 100% of the time, but I will respectfully disagree because he quite clearly isn't. 

 

 

I don't think it's such a bad idea to have a different version of a "Super Strength" type power set.  There are varying degrees of strength and the current version we have is (at least to me) more geared for a Hulk-type rage monster character.  There are characters who aren't quite that strong, but are still at super levels of strength and their strength isn't necessarily tied to their rage/anger level. 

 

I also don't see a reason why a new set would need to be exclusive to Scrappers and not be able to be ported to over to Tankers and Brutes.  I think it would a good thing to have some different flavors of super strength to accentuate less "super strong" characters.

We're off topic. Let's leave it here.

[Stormwalker]

5 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

I don't think it's such a bad idea to have a different version of a "Super Strength" type power set.  There are varying degrees of strength and the current version we have is (at least to me) more geared for a Hulk-type rage monster character.  There are characters who aren't quite that strong, but are still at super levels of strength and their strength isn't necessarily tied to their rage/anger level. 

 

I also don't see a reason why a new set would need to be exclusive to Scrappers and not be able to be ported to over to Tankers and Brutes.  I think it would a good thing to have some different flavors of super strength to accentuate less "super strong" characters.

 

I wouldn't have a problem, if the "Enhanced Strength" set was implemented, with Tankers and Brutes getting it (for that matter, I wouldn't have a problem with making a version of it as a Blaster secondary, either).  Especially since, as I noted, "Hand Clap" is kind of outside the realm of even most Super Strength heroes - it's kind of a Superman/Hulk level thing, and they're a higher tier of Super Strength than a lot of other "Super Strength" characters.  I'm pretty sure Juggernaut couldn't do Hand Clap.  So the Enhanced Strength set might represent even a lot of those heroes better than Super Strength does.   I do think at that point you have to start looking at actually porting SS to Scrappers and Stalkers in the name of fairness.

 

Actually, it occurs to me that Hand Clap isn't even really a function of super strength.  It's more a function of Super SPEED and Super Durability.  Because the force of the blow comes from the velocity of the hands as they're brought together - causing the air to be unable to move out of the way fast enough creating a shockwave akin to a sonic boom - and that velocity (and the force of impact resulting from it) is the thing you need the super durability to endure.  You don't actually need Super Strength to do that.  You need to be able to move your arms really fast and endure an enormous impact.  The Hulk gets to cheat a bit here because his hands are HUGE which means he doesn't have to move them quite as fast to accomplish the same effect.

 

Also, running some Family missions yesterday reminded me that Family lieutenants use SS attacks.  I think most scrappers are more durable than a mobster who has done a little too much Superadine.

Edited Saturday at 07:52 PM by Stormwalker
grammar fix

[Xion80]

15 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

I wouldn't have a problem, if the "Enhanced Strength" set was implemented, with Tankers and Brutes getting it (for that matter, I wouldn't have a problem with making a version of it as a Blaster secondary, either).  Especially since, as I noted, "Hand Clap" is kind of outside the realm of even most Super Strength heroes - it's kind of a Superman/Hulk level thing, and they're a higher tier of Super Strength than a lot of other "Super Strength" characters.  I'm pretty sure Juggernaut couldn't do Hand Clap.  So the Enhanced Strength set might represent even a lot of those heroes better than Super Strength does.   I do think at that point you have to start looking at actually porting SS to Scrappers and Stalkers in the name of fairness.

 

Actually, it occurs to me that Hand Clap isn't even really a function of super strength.  It's more a function of Super SPEED and Super Durability.  Because the force of the blow comes from the velocity of the hands as they're brought together - causing the air to be unable to move out of the way fast enough creating a shockwave akin to a sonic boom - and that velocity (and the force of impact resulting from it) is the thing you need the super durability to endure.  You don't actually need Super Strength to do that.  You need to be able to move your arms really fast and endure an enormous impact.  The Hulk gets to cheat a bit here because his hands are HUGE which means he doesn't have to move them quite as fast to accomplish the same effect.

 

Also, running some Family missions yesterday reminded me that Family lieutenants use SS attacks.  I think most scrappers are more durable than a mobster who has done a little too much Superadine.

Ummm...where are you pulling this "off topic" information from? "Juggernaut can't hand clap". "Hand Clap is exclusive to Hulk and Supes"! You don't think that sounds like misinformation? Why make "off topic" statements like you just didn't protest about it prior? I already have scans on deck to refute those claims, but I won't go there. 

 

Personally, I think Brute and Tankers getting it would be a complete waste of resources with HC limited budget.

 

Superadine is an amazing thing! It gave the Family access to super strength, but they didn't abuse it like the Trolls. The effects could potentially be temporary, as they didn't mutate like the trolls. I think it's just enough to give them an edge when facing street level heroes on the come up. That one Family lieutenant at the end of the mission where you have to fight Veles' sister Morgana is a problem. He has SS and he will put a durable scrapper down if they're not prepared.

[Stormwalker]

12 minutes ago, Xion80 said:

Ummm...where are you pulling this "off topic" information from? "Juggernaut can't hand clap". "Hand Clap is exclusive to Hulk and Supes"! You don't think that sounds like misinformation? Why make "off topic" statements like you just didn't protest about it prior? I already have scans on deck to refute those claims, but I won't go there. 

 

Personally, I think Brute and Tankers getting it would be a complete waste of resources with HC limited budget.

 

Superadine is an amazing thing! It gave the Family access to super strength, but they didn't abuse it like the Trolls. The effects could potentially be temporary, as they didn't mutate like the trolls. I think it's just enough to give them an edge when facing street level heroes on the come up. That one Family lieutenant at the end of the mission where you have to fight Veles' sister Morgana is a problem. He has SS and he will put a durable scrapper down if they're not prepared.

 

1. It's not off-topic, because the topic is about Super Strength and Hand Clap is specifically cited by some people as an example of something a scrapper "couldn't do".

2. Regarding Juggernaut and Hand Clap, I've never once seen him do it, or anything really like it.

3. In fact, Superman and the Hulk are the only ones I've ever seen do that move, though I'm sure anyone else on their level could, and I obviously haven't read every comic book ever.

4. Actually, that's not why Family don't mutate.  They use a purer cut of Superadine that the keep to themselves that doesn't cause the Troll mutations.

5. I've never once had a problem with that Family Lt. on a Scrapper.  Not once.  In fact, the only time I've ever been defeated by him was on a Defender, and that was because that Defender's DPS was so low he got mobbed because he couldn't take the waves out fast enough.  And to make it clear, I've run that arc on fifteen Scrappers of various powersets.

Edited Saturday at 08:58 PM by Stormwalker

[Xion80]

6 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

1. It's not off-topic, because the topic is about Super Strength and Hand Clap is specifically cited by some people as an example of something a scrapper "couldn't do".

2. Regarding Juggernaut and Hand Clap, I've never once seen him do it, or anything really like it.

3. In fact, Superman and the Hulk are the only ones I've ever seen do that move, though I'm sure anyone else on their level could, and I obviously haven't read every comic book ever.

4. Actually, that's not why Family don't mutate.  They use a purer cut of Superadine that the keep to themselves that doesn't cause the Troll mutations.

5. I've never once had a problem with that Family Lt. on a Scrapper.  Not once.  In fact, the only time I've ever been defeated by him was on a Defender, and that was because that Defender's DPS was so low he got mobbed because he couldn't take the waves out fast enough.  And to make it clear, I've run that arc on fifteen Scrappers of various powersets.

What was your difficulty settings? Anyone can molly wop at 0 or +1 settings. The Hollows and Kings Row are "survival of the fittest" for me.

 

Ok, so the cut is pure! My point is they don't abuse it. Refining it could mean less equals more.

 

These two scans should do it. Why make those comments when you know you don't know? The science part was flawed based off your assessment on the SS of those specific characters. Luke is even "clapping cheeks!" No big hands required.

 

 

 

 

[tidge]

I thought Spider-Man was a Crabbermind?

 

[Stormwalker]

16 minutes ago, Xion80 said:

What was your difficulty settings? Anyone can molly wop at 0 or +1 settings. The Hollows and Kings Row are "survival of the fittest" for me.

 

Ok, so the cut is pure! My point is they don't abuse it. Refining it could mean less equals more.

 

These two scans should do it. Why make those comments when you know you don't know? The science part was flawed based off your assessment on the SS of those specific characters. Luke is even "clapping cheeks!" No big hands required.

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, so you've seen Juggernaut do it.  I had not.

 

Difficulty settings are irrelevant to my point.  The argument has been made in this thread that Scrappers are not durable enough for Super Strength.  But Family Lt's. have Super Strength, and Scrappers are substantially more durable than Family Lt.'s.  On that basis, I reject the argument that Scrappers are not durable enough for Super Strength.

 

For that matter, Scrappers of all stripes are durable enough to *endure* Super Strength attacks without being Disoriented and most Scrappers won't even be knocked down (sorry, Fire and Dark, time to slot those KB prot IO's).  If you're durable enough to take Super Strength punches, you're durable enough to dish them out.

Edited Saturday at 09:40 PM by Stormwalker

[Xion80]

48 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Ok, so you've seen Juggernaut do it.  I had not.

 

Difficulty settings are irrelevant to my point.  The argument has been made in this thread that Scrappers are not durable enough for Super Strength.  But Family Lt's. have Super Strength, and Scrappers are substantially more durable than Family Lt.'s.  On that basis, I reject the argument that Scrappers are not durable enough for Super Strength.

 

For that matter, Scrappers of all stripes are durable enough to *endure* Super Strength attacks without being Disoriented and most Scrappers won't even be knocked down (sorry, Fire and Dark, time to slot those KB prot IO's).  If you're durable enough to take Super Strength punches, you're durable enough to dish them out.

Scrapper can tank. I can't refute that. I will say content, and great support are a major factor. Those LT are strong enough to pick up mafia cars in the 40-54 range. I don't think they're scrappers. And they're also using stolen Praetorian tech. They could in fact br brutes, considering scrappers don't have access to SS.

Capo Strongarm

Each Capo controls his own crew of Button Men. It's a kind of authority you don't earn unless you've proven yourself both ruthless and lucky. Capos save the best weapons and women for themselves and are inevitably smart, tough fighters. The Capo Strongarm is among the strongest of the Capos. They've been seen throwing rival mafia's cars to deal with 'problems' that arise. One thing is clear: you don't mess with a Capo Strongarm.

Levels: 40-54

Edited Saturday at 10:14 PM by Xion80

[Stormwalker]

15 minutes ago, Xion80 said:

Scrapper can tank. I can't refute that. I will say content, and great support are a major factor. Those LT are strong enough to pick up mafia cars in the 40-54 range. I don't think they're scrappers. And they're also using stolen Praetorian tech. They could in fact br brutes, considering scrappers don't have access to SS.

Capo Strongarm

Each Capo controls his own crew of Button Men. It's a kind of authority you don't earn unless you've proven yourself both ruthless and lucky. Capos save the best weapons and women for themselves and are inevitably smart, tough fighters. The Capo Strongarm is among the strongest of the Capos. They've been seen throwing rival mafia's cars to deal with 'problems' that arise. One thing is clear: you don't mess with a Capo Strongarm.

Levels: 40-54

 

They don't have Brute durability, though.  Or anything even close to it.

 

Having a 90% resist cap doesn't really matter if you only actually have 10% smash resistance, does it?  And those guys have Foot Stomp.

[Xion80]

39 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

They don't have Brute durability, though.  Or anything even close to it.

 

Having a 90% resist cap doesn't really matter if you only actually have 10% smash resistance, does it?  And those guys have Foot Stomp.

Superadine and stolen Praetorian tech are solid explanations for them having SS.  They're normal humans attempting to even the playing field when faced with a real Super Strength adversary. They're the weak imitations of the problems they face.

 

Even though imitation,  their "super strength" or durability doesn't rival that of the real deal Tanker/Brute. Factor in the rank and damage scale  of said rank mob, and It all falls in line.

 

If a Scrapper had SS and traded punches with the LT. The damage won't be the same by a mile. Same level, same power. The Family SS is not the real deal.Even while they use the cheap imitation,  the scrapper is hitting harder, because he's naturally a super. Why do you think there are so many of them when it's time to brawl? Its because they don't measure up.

Edited Saturday at 11:09 PM by Xion80

[Stormwalker]

4 minutes ago, Xion80 said:

Superadine and stolen Praetorian tech are solid explanations for them having SS.  They're normal humans attempting to even the playing field when faced with a real Super Strength adversary. They're the weak imitations of the problems they face.

 

Even though imitation,  their "super strength" or durability doesn't rival that of the real deal Tanker/Brute. Factor in the rank and damage scale  of said rank mob, and It all falls in line.

 

If a Scrapper had SS and traded punches with the LT. The damage won't be the same by a mile. Same level, same power. The family SS is not the real deal.

 

They have Foot Stomp.  They are sufficiently strong to shatter the ground and launch people into the air.  It's the strongest power in the set.  That makes them genuinely Super Strong..

 

But again, what I'm actually getting at here is that in was stated in this thread that Super Strength requires a certain amount of durability to not damage yourself when you use it .  The Family Lt's. don't have that, and yet they use Super Strength.  Therefore, that particular justification for Scrappers not getting it doesn't fly by game mechanics.  That's all I'm saying here.

[Xion80]

35 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

They have Foot Stomp.  They are sufficiently strong to shatter the ground and launch people into the air.  It's the strongest power in the set.  That makes them genuinely Super Strong..

 

But again, what I'm actually getting at here is that in was stated in this thread that Super Strength requires a certain amount of durability to not damage yourself when you use it .  The Family Lt's. don't have that, and yet they use Super Strength.  Therefore, that particular justification for Scrappers not getting it doesn't fly by game mechanics.  That's all I'm saying here.

1) I've just explained it. They're using a cheap imitation. They don't hit like the real thing.  They don't launch scrappers anywhere. Its stolen tech and drugs. Scrapper damage destroys that imitation. You said it yourself. You beat the break off them everytime, but they have SS. Clearly it's not the same grade. Your primary proves it time and time again!

 

2) The statement is based off simple logic, not the confines of CoH. How are you gonna "Super Strength" anything if your body dosen't possess the durability to withstand such forces?  Yeah you picked up the armored car, but that spine of yours will shatter under such weight. Yeah you punch right through that steel safe, but you shattered every bone in that arm, and tore your skin off completely  from such force. When you have super strength. Everything else has to be super as well. There are no exceptions.

Edited Saturday at 11:46 PM by Xion80

[Stormwalker]

6 minutes ago, Xion80 said:

1) I've just explained it. They're using a cheap imitation. They don't hit like the real thing.  They don't launch scrappers anywhere. Its stolen tech and drugs. Scrapper damage destroys that imitation.

 

2) The statement is based off simple logic, not the confines of CoH. How are you gonna "Super Strength" anything if your body dosen't possess the durability to withstand such forces?  Yeah you picked up the armored car, but that spine of yours will shatter under such weight. Yeah you punch right through that steel safe, but you shattered every bone in that arm, and tore your skin completely off from such force. When you have super strength. Everything else has to be super as well.

 

Nope.  Having Foot Stomp disqualifies it from being a "cheap imitation".  They have the strongest power in the set.  They have the ability to strike the ground so hard they cause a locallized earthquake (yes, that is in the description of the power for the Family LT's, btw, see the Wiki for that).  That is not a "cheap imitation" of Super Strength.  That argument is not justifiable.  It is, as you might say, simple logic.

 

I'm not arguing with the statement that a certain amount of durability is needed.  I'm arguing with the contention that Scrappers are not durable enough.  The fact that a Family LT who only has 10% smash resistance can strike the ground hard enough to create a localized earthquake makes that contention laughable.  My level 35 Ice Blaster with only one slot in Tough has more smash resistance than that!  If that guy can do it, there's no reason a Scrapper can't.  Period..

[Xion80]

35 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Nope.  Having Foot Stomp disqualifies it from being a "cheap imitation".  They have the strongest power in the set.  They have the ability to strike the ground so hard they cause a locallized earthquake (yes, that is in the description of the power for the Family LT's, btw, see the Wiki for that).  That is not a "cheap imitation" of Super Strength.  That argument is not justifiable.  It is, as you might say, simple logic.

 

I'm not arguing with the statement that a certain amount of durability is needed.  I'm arguing with the contention that Scrappers are not durable enough.  The fact that a Family LT who only has 10% smash resistance can strike the ground hard enough to create a localized earthquake makes that contention laughable.  My level 35 Ice Blaster with only one slot in Tough has more smash resistance than that!  If that guy can do it, there's no reason a Scrapper can't.  Period..

1)But it is an imitation no less. "Cheap" in the sense the damage don't match the description. We don't have the intricate detail on the effects of Advanced Praetorian Tech, with a dash of Refined Superadine. But we do have "wanna be" Family goons showing the results of said products. And from the view of this scrapper, that ish is trash! Big talk on paper! If their SS was so reliable, they wouldn't have stolen all those new praetorian weapons with the armor piercing rounds.

 

2) That contention isn't my fight. I'll leave this right here.

Edited yesterday at 12:21 AM by Xion80

[Stormwalker]

The problem with using damage numbers to estimate the amount of force being delivered is that damage numbers are specifically dependent on things that don't actually involve physics.  Which is to say, the inherent AT damage scalar, and things like that.  It will never match up to the visual effects of the powers.  That's because the numbers are not determined by "let's put a reasonable value to what this power would actually do" and instead are determined by the requirements of game balance.

 

As such, I disregard the numbers in cases like this.  There is a minimum amount of force that has to be delivered to generate the effect we see on the screen.  That minimum amount of force, by the way, is absurdly high in the case of Foot Stomp.  The effect of causing the ground to quake hard enough to launch people around you into the air requires that you hit the ground ridiculously, ludicrously hard.  It's multiple orders of magnitude more force than is required in the punching attacks in the SS set.  If you can do Foot Stomp?  You have legit Super Strength.

 

To put this in other terms, the damage on your punching attacks with Super Strength?  Is largely a measurement of how much you are holding back.  Because if you hit someone remotely as hard as you hit the ground when you Foot Stomp?   Well, that goes back to the Superman "world of cardboard" speech.

 

If we're really honest about it, Foot Stomp just blows any semblence of realistic physics out the window.  It can only be justified by handwaving it.

 

And if you think that sounds different from what I was saying about Foot Stomp and who could do it earlier in the thread?  You're absolutely right about that.  Between then and now I sat down and did some math.

Edited yesterday at 01:18 AM by Stormwalker

[Xion80]

3 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

The problem with using damage numbers to estimate the amount of force being delivered is that damage numbers are specifically dependent on things that don't actually involve physics.  Which is to say, the inherent AT damage scalar, and things like that.  It will never match up to the visual effects of the powers.  That's because the numbers are not determined by "let's put a reasonable value to what this power would actually do" and instead are determined by the requirements of game balance.

 

As such, I disregard the numbers in cases like this.  There is a minimum amount of force that has to be delivered to generate the effect we see on the screen.  That minimum amount of force, by the way, is absurdly high in the case of Foot Stomp.  The effect of causing the ground to quake hard enough to launch people around you into the air requires that you hit the ground ridiculously, ludicrously hard.  It's multiple orders of magnitude more force than is required in the punching attacks in the SS set.  If you can do Foot Stomp?  You have legit Super Strength.

 Insignificant! Their version of Footstomp causes no hero pause, no matter what the description states. I'd disregard the damage numbers too if it "Footstomped" my entire argument, but who is really surprised? You "noted" that Hand Clap was outside the realm of SS superheroes. That The Juggernaut couldn't achieve such a feat. An that Hulk "cheats" with big hands. All refuted of course.

 Localized Earthquake!? Your dIscernment should prove otherwise. 

[Stormwalker]

1 hour ago, Xion80 said:

 Insignificant! Their version of Footstomp causes no hero pause, no matter what the description states. I'd disregard the damage numbers too if it "Footstomped" my entire argument, but who is really surprised? You "noted" that Hand Clap was outside the realm of SS superheroes. That The Juggernaut couldn't achieve such a feat. An that Hulk "cheats" with big hands. All refuted of course.

 Localized Earthquake!? Your dIscernment should prove otherwise. 

 

I'm really sick of arguing with you, and I'm really sick of all the gifs in your comments.  They're really annoying. 

 

Think what you want, it's not worth it.

Edited yesterday at 03:16 AM by Stormwalker

[Xion80]

10 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

I'm really sick of arguing with you, and I'm really sick of all the gifs in your comments.  They're really annoying. 

 

Think what you want, it's not worth it.

Being disproven with receipts tends have that effect on folks in a debate. That Juggernaut scan really "hand clapped" your whole dissertation, so I get it. It's nothing personal, I just don't like misinformation. 

 

"Argument"!? I guess you're talking about yourself, as I'm not angry or heated in any aspect. From my perspective, we're just two soldiers "shooting the shit" outside the staff duty desk, while smoking cigarettes. If you're ready to go back inside, it's no biggy.  We both will be on the same battlefield tomorrow, despite our differences of opinion. Salute!

Edited 14 hours ago by Xion80

[Rudra]

Here is my two cents on Super Strength being available to Scrappers. First, a definition so we have a point of reference for the discussion. Super strength is strength beyond the maximum capabilities of a normal human being. That's it. So super strength encompasses a very, very, very wide range of capabilities. This means super strength can range from a character that can juggle large motorcycles easily but can't lift that full size sedan all the way up to characters that can lift a fully loaded supercarrier or even a continental plate and toss them to the other side of the world one-handed with no effort and even beyond. This also means that there are entire races that are by default super strong. Like the Asgardians in Marvel comics.

 

Second, having super strength does not itself have any correlation to a character being able to withstand harm. Yes, there are many examples of super strong characters that are also some form of invulnerable. Because just like super strength, invulnerability encompasses a very wide range of capabilities. There is a reason why the question of just how invulnerable <character name> is when other characters are trying to figure out how to defeat said character. This means that you can have super strong characters like Captain America who derives his protection from the (scale mail) armored costume he wears and the vibranium shield he carries. This also means you can have super strong characters like Spider-Man who rely on evading hits to get by. And even with invulnerable characters, you see a range of what would be armor sets in this game. From Superman who simply tanks that 16" gun shot like it was nothing to Hulk who tanks that same hit but also regenerates his injuries at an impossible rate (effectively making him a Willpower character in City of Heroes). So any discussion of whether Scrappers should get access to Super Strength can effectively leave any discussion of armor sets out.

 

All that said, this is a video game and video games need to have game balance. So to me, that is the primary question. Would Scrapper Super Strength be balanced? If the answer is no for any reason, then the question becomes can it be made balanced. If it can be made balanced, then it is up to the devs to decide if they ahve time or desire to invest the effort in doing so.

 

Now here is where I start throwing caveats and other considerations. Like you don't need to be using Super Strength to have a super strong character. The common response is to make a Street Justice character. And the common retort is that Street Justice is not super strength. However, again, super strength is a range. So maybe your character is a low end super strong character and has taken up martial arts (either as Street Justice or as Martial Arts) to be a more effective combatant or has taken up a weapon to fight with. Or maybe your character is at such a high end of super strength that the character uses martial arts as a restraint on himself/herself/themselves/itself to not simply delete every being that character makes contact with. The whole discipline and focus aspect of martial arts being used to help the character interact with the world in a safe manner. For instance, I took my ninja mastermind into a group RP chat back on Live. One of the super strong characters in the channel decided he was going to "flex" and chucked a semi truck with trailer at my MM. My MM evaded, then picked up the semi with trailer and threw it back at the other character. And not a single soul erupted with cries like "You can't do that! You're just a MM!". Instead the responses were "Holy crap! We've got a strong MM here! Just how strong are you?".