Water/SR build for review

[DR_Mechano]

Hi guys just wondering what you more knowledgeable people thought about a test run build I came up with for water/SR.

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

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Level 50 Magic Sentinel
Primary Power Set: Water Blast
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Experimentation
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Leviathan Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Hydro Blast -- SprOppStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprOppStr-Dmg/Rchg(11), SprOppStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), SprOppStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), SprOppStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), SprOppStr-Rchg/+Opportunity(19)
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(3), Rct-Def(3), Rct-ResDam%(5)
Level 2: Water Burst -- SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg(A), SprSntWar-Dmg/Rchg(13), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), SprSntWar-Rchg/+Absorb(34)
Level 4: Focused Senses -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(5), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(7), RedFrt-Def(7)
Level 6: Agile -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(9)
Level 8: Tidal Forces -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), RechRdx-I(9)
Level 10: Master Brawler -- NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(A), Mrc-Heal/Rchg(11)
Level 12: Whirlpool -- Bmbdmt-Dam(A), Bmbdmt-Acc/Rech/End(33), Bmbdmt-Dam/Rech(37), Bmbdmt-Acc/Dam/Rech(37), Bmbdmt-Acc/Dam/Rech/End(40)
Level 14: Speed of Sound -- BlsoftheZ-Travel(A), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(15), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(36)
Level 16: Enduring -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(42), PwrTrns-+Heal(42)
Level 18: Kick -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(A), CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx(37), CrsImp-Dmg/Rchg(40), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 20: Dodge -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def(21), Rct-Def/EndRdx(21)
Level 22: Dehydrate -- TchoftheN-Heal(A), TchoftheN-Heal/HP/Regen/Rchg(23), TchoftheN-Acc/Heal(23), TchoftheN-Acc/EndRdx/Heal/HP/Regen(25), TchoftheN-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(25), TchoftheN-%Dam(27)
Level 24: Tough -- RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(29), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RctArm-ResDam(31), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(31), GldArm-3defTpProc(33)
Level 26: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def(27), Rct-Def/EndRdx(29)
Level 28: Quickness -- Run-I(A), Run-I(34)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(34), RedFrt-Def(50)
Level 32: Geyser -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(45), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(46), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 35: Evasion -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(36), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36)
Level 38: Knockout Blow -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(39), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Hct-Acc/Rchg(39), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(40)
Level 41: Arctic Breath -- Bmbdmt-Dam(A), Bmbdmt-Acc/Rech/End(48), Bmbdmt-Dam/Rech(48), Bmbdmt-Acc/Dam/Rech(50), Bmbdmt-Acc/Dam/Rech/End(50)
Level 44: Super Jump -- BlsoftheZ-Travel(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(45)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(48)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Opportunity
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(43), Mrc-Rcvry+(43)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(43)
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
------------

 

 

 

[oldskool]

On 11/8/2020 at 11:02 AM, DR_Mechano said:

Hi guys just wondering what you more knowledgeable people thought about a test run build I came up with for water/SR.

What's the reason for skipping Water Jet and Steam Spray?  Why slot Dehydrate as a heal?  

Have you actually played this?  If so, is it as disappointing as it looks?  

 

[Underfyre]

A few posts down someone asked about Water/Energy. Look at my reply to it, apply my wisdom to your build. The slotting will essentially be the same.

[DR_Mechano]

6 hours ago, oldskool said:

What's the reason for skipping Water Jet and Steam Spray?  Why slot Dehydrate as a heal?  

Have you actually played this?  If so, is it as disappointing as it looks?  

 

No I haven't played it yet, keep in mind I have NO idea what I'm doing on sentinels. Water Jet and Steam Spray are usually skipped on Water Blasters so I was going on that. Why do you think I was asking people to take a look at the build...there's no need to give off that kind of attitude just because someone is asking for help, let alone not explain those choices (WHY is Water Jet and Steam Spray good on Sentinels but Steam Spray is usually skipped on Blasters for example).

 

I mean I was just going to give on advice since the topic had literally sat there for five days unanswered.

Edited November 13, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[DR_Mechano]

2 hours ago, underfyre said:

A few posts down someone asked about Water/Energy. Look at my reply to it, apply my wisdom to your build. The slotting will essentially be the same.

Well not really, you're building for Typed defenses on Energy and Positional on SR plus Energy gets its own heal, SR does not.

[Underfyre]

Doesn't matter that much. Same sets are used. Oldskool is usually more hospitable than I am, you'll have to forgive him.

 

Skip Hydro Blast, it's slow and doesn't do the damage to justify it.

 

Dehydrate is neither a good heal, nor a potent damage ability baseline. It's only useful with procs, really.

 

You should be taking Water Jet because what else are you spending Tidal Power on? A very weak heal? Geyser every 29 seconds? Water Burst that gets a whopping 11.89 damage added to it? You Build Up adds 25% damage as Water Blast, but it adds 3 Tidal Power. It's a core mechanic to the set. 3 Tidal power only adds 15.4 damage Geyser. I mean yeah it's nice when it's saturated on 10 targets, but that's not exactly an optimal use for it.

 

I'm not one for slotting over 45% defense, but if that's what you want, then do you.

 

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[oldskool]

10 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

No I haven't played it yet, keep in mind I have NO idea what I'm doing on sentinels. Water Jet and Steam Spray are usually skipped on Water Blasters so I was going on that. Why do you think I was asking people to take a look at the build...there's no need to give off that kind of attitude just because someone is asking for help, let alone not explain those choices (WHY is Water Jet and Steam Spray good on Sentinels but Steam Spray is usually skipped on Blasters for example).

 

I mean I was just going to give on advice since the topic had literally sat there for five days unanswered.

Well the highlighted and underlined is news to me.  

In February of this year you started a post on Assault Rifles, just for example: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/14407-assault-rifle-really-needs-some-love/

 

I've read other posts by you.  I've seen where you express an opinion on the Sentinel.  

I had, wrongly, assumed you had some idea of the AT.  Now you're saying you don't know what you're doing on Sentinels.  I had an impression you had a better understanding.  Forgive me for that.

I had, wrongly, assumed you had an idea/concept up your sleeve in the way your build was constructed.  I didn't want to go into a long explanation because I wasn't sure of what you wanted.  Forgive me for that.  There is a LOT to unpack in your choices.  However, knowing now that some of the root here is a logic on how Blasters work vs Sentinels the choices make a little more sense.  

TL;DR: Sentinels shouldn't be built like Blasters.  Sentinels can enable a very different style of play.  Lean into that if you're going to bother with the AT.

That out of the way, I had started to go into a lot with your build and I backed off.  I thought, Dr. Mechano posts a good bit and this is being posted as something of a test case (my interpretation of your use of "test run").  Perhaps I'll ask some pointed question FIRST.  Obviously that wasn't a good idea because you took it as a personal attack.  It wasn't.  

 

Let's just get the 500lb gorilla out of the way.  Why did I ask if it was as disappointing as it looks?  Because just looking over the cool downs of the powers you picked, and the powers themselves, your effective output on paper is less than 100 DPS not counting Opportunity uptime.  That is the kind of baseline DPS that gets people to rage on this subforum about "Defenders do more DEEPs than Sentinels".  Water Blast on Sentinels is capable of more damage than that in both single target and AoE.  You also noted in your OP that you wanted thoughts on the build.  My thought is it looks disappointing from a damage dealing perspective.  I play Water Blast on the Sentinel.  It is capable of much more than your build, but again I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.  Sorry I did that.

 

Turning on Assault in the build is a tiny improvement as is even using Musculature.  That stems in part because of the slotting decision on Dehydrate.  <--- Hence why I asked.  

Anyway, as Underfyre notes, Water Jet is the damage spender of the Tidal Forces mechanic.  Water Jet, even on its own, does very solid damage for Sentinel single target.  Your response of "but Blasters don't take it" makes sense in retrospect.  Again, I assumed you knew something I didn't.  Hence the questions to open dialogue and not me trying to read your mind on what you wanted.  Now that I see you want some information explained I'll just do that.  

Water Jet gets a double use mechanic under Tidal Forces.  There is a very slight server pause on when the refresh happens.  Once you gain the special secondary WJ proc the animation is faster while still retaining its base properties.  The cooldown on enhanced Water Jet is 15 seconds.  That isn't a reason to skip it on Sentinels though, because what else are you using attack time for?  Blasters have the luxury of an entire secondary with rather high DPA melee options.  You skip Water Jet on Blasters because you don't need it depending on what secondary you're running.  You should take Water Jet on every other AT that uses the set.  You could potentially make some concessions on Corruptors or Defenders, I suppose.  However, those two ATs could potentially be leaving DPS on the table where Blasters don't.  Sentinels don't have nearly the number of options to improve damage, sub level 35, that *any* of the other ranged blast using ATs do. 

Steam Spray for Sentinels is actually a big deal.  It is a cone, sure, but is one of the few cones on Sentinels with a 10 target cap.  That is unique.  Steam Spray also hits like a truck, in Sentinel scale that is, and has better downtime than your Arctic Breath would.  Not only does Steam Spray do good damage and hit more targets, it also does some fire damage helping to diversify damage against resistance.  Steam Spray is actually a very solid choice.  You can skip it, sure, but I'd think there would be some reasons for that choice.  So I asked you about that.  If any of this information is news to you, then forgive me for thinking you knew more.  The way your build is currently construction it relies heavily on Water Burst.  WB is the weakest AoE option in your entire kit and it looks like the focal point of the build.  Hydro Blast isn't a bad T2 but it is the focal point of your entire set of ST options.   Both Water Jet and Dehydrate can contribute more.  Knockout Blow has such a long base recharge that unless you are building around it that power can hinder your damage vs helping it.  In your build's case you *need* Knockout Blow because otherwise your overall DPS is even worse.

 

You didn't ask for any improvements to the build or how to optimize it.  Maybe you implied it and I obviously missed the intent. 

If you wanted to optimize the damage you're capable of, you can look at whatever Underfyre is talking about.  I don't need to pick apart Underfyre's work because I trust the reasons on the decisions being made even without seeing it.  Still let's walk through some thoughts to support their work.  

Water Blast's damage can be improved through damage procs.  Super Reflexes is one, if not *the*, best proc enabling secondary in my experience.  Super Reflexes can easily hit the low 40% positional defense numbers without too much thought.  Yes, it does requiring stacking some pool powers, but you're doing that.  Sentinel Evasion functions just like Stalker Evasion in that you have just one power with all consolidated AoE defense.  This makes building AoE defense on Sentinel SR *very* easy.  Melee and Range on Sentinels can easily be brought to 45%.  Melee can get 5% from the ATO.  Range can get 2.5% from the other ATO and even a 3 slot Thunderstrike or two will finish soft capping that defense.  You could push to 50%+ if you wanted, but I don't feel it is necessary for the damage potential you give up.  Still, it is a consideration to make depending on the content you want to solo.  

 

Once Super Reflexes gets you into 45% defense range, you can then focus on improving damage.  There aren't good set bonuses at 6 slots to be doing this on Sentinels.  Sentinel damage scaling on pure set building also isn't nearly as strong as Blasters.  However, if you don't mind frankenslotting some attacks, especially Dehydrate, you can push considerably more damage on your single target with various procs.  You could also make a decision to push AoE harder and use ST as a fall back.  You could potentially do both but run risk of hindering your base accuracy/to-hit which may require you take Tactics.  I say *maybe* because you can go several directions here.  

Any knockback enabling attacks can take Explosive Strikes.  Any -defense attacks (i.e., Dehydrate) can take 3 procs.  Dehydrate can also take on Touch of the Nictus negative energy proc *and* Theft of Essence if you want to get particularly creative.  Water Blast has a lot of options here.  That is why it is such a good set on Sentinels. 

You don't need 99% ED in your damage if you plan to take the Musculature Alpha.  You can push into 80% range on 3 enhancements then use boosters to +5 those and Musculature Alpha to bring up back into the 120 to 130% ED range on damage.  That is while also using 3 other slots to bring in additional damage with pretty good proc chance as long as you're not using Aqua Bolt or slotting directly for recharge.  

The strategy above does want to abuse high levels of global recharge.  Super Reflexes is also good at enabling that too because you get +20% recharge with a power pick.  Hasten on top of that and you're rocking 90% global recharge.  Master Brawler with 6 slots using Preventative Medicine gets you a large recharge perk.  At that point you're probably looking for spots to throw Luck of the Gamblers, Reactive Defense (full set - ideally in Weave or Evasion), the two 3% uniques, and the two ATOs for their overall bonuses.  You'd be rocking quite a bit of recharge and defense by then.  

You can achieve 185% global recharge pairing any primary with Super Reflexes.  How do I know this?  It is because I have done it and done it more than once.  It does require making some decisions on focusing in on ST or AoE.  Also, in my case, I make a decision to skip travel powers.  I rely on Ninja Run, Sprint, Swift, and Quickness to get me around.  It isn't that bad to me and I sometimes even beat players with travel powers to missions.  For flight zones I use jet packs.  If you don't want to make those sacrifices for concepts, then that is fine.  You can still hit, or get darn close, to perma-Hasten on Super Reflexes. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by oldskool

[oldskool]

9 hours ago, underfyre said:

Skip Hydro Blast, it's slow and doesn't do the damage to justify it.

Just curious do you feel it is that way at all times?  I run Hydro with procs, but I also don't rely so heavily on Dominate in my own Water build.  Hydro, Dehydrate, and Water Jet do less damage than what you have.  However, it isn't such a loss in practice that it changes my decision to push an epic single target.  I had tried to use Aqua Bolt and I had worse results.  

It has been a while since I bother to really play around with Water to test.  I've just mostly kept my build as is for the past 8 months without issue.

[Underfyre]

11 hours ago, oldskool said:

Just curious do you feel it is that way at all times?  I run Hydro with procs, but I also don't rely so heavily on Dominate in my own Water build.  Hydro, Dehydrate, and Water Jet do less damage than what you have.  However, it isn't such a loss in practice that it changes my decision to push an epic single target.  I had tried to use Aqua Bolt and I had worse results.  

It has been a while since I bother to really play around with Water to test.  I've just mostly kept my build as is for the past 8 months without issue.

You know I lean heavily on what my spreadsheet tells me. I haven't spent nearly a year on it to not use it. So, admittedly, I don't slot Hydro Blast for procs because I need somewhere to mule the WIO ranged set. BUT! Let's see what the spreadsheet says if I just slotted either of them for procs instead of muling them lol. Mind you this is breaking my defense cap and being lazy, so set bonuses might not be 100% accurate, everything else will be.

 

I'm keeping the Apocalypse proc in Water Jet. That leaves 3 damaging procs for Hydro Blast. I'm going to slot the PvP set for the 4-slot 2.5% damage bonus because nothing else is appealing.

Same goes for Aqua Bolt, 3 procs, going with the 4-slot for 2.5% damage.

 

Rikti Pylon for fairness sake with regards to resists.

 

Aqua Bolt 301.93

Hydro Blast 299.36

 

294.93 for Aqua Bolt if I just mule it.

 

The build I have up top is what I'll call my "final" Water/SR build after multiple iterations, though I'm looking at it now and wondering where I can fit the Unbreakable Guard unique in. It's far from necessary, but whatevs.

Edited November 14, 2020 by underfyre

[DR_Mechano]

On 11/13/2020 at 1:54 PM, oldskool said:

Well the highlighted and underlined is news to me.  

In February of this year you started a post on Assault Rifles, just for example: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/14407-assault-rifle-really-needs-some-love/

 

I've read other posts by you.  I've seen where you express an opinion on the Sentinel.  

I had, wrongly, assumed you had some idea of the AT.  Now you're saying you don't know what you're doing on Sentinels.  I had an impression you had a better understanding.  Forgive me for that.

Firstly, fair enough, yes I have made an AR/Invuln Sentinel but AR/Invuln are pretty much the two easiest sets to build, you want everything from Invuln. From AR you want all your cones and the tier 3 (IIRC) that says it does low damage, high stun, when in fact it does high damage and basically out DPAs every other single target attack. I will also point out that I have stated several times that AR/Invuln was so miserable to play and left such a terrible first impression that I'd effectively sworn off playing Sentinels and this Water/SR one was going to be my return to the fold to see how it worked.

Edited November 14, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[xl8]

On 11/12/2020 at 4:17 PM, oldskool said:

Why slot Dehydrate as a heal?  

I've done this on my Corr, and as part of an already overladen AC, it keeps my health at 100%. Not essential, but welcome.

[oldskool]

16 hours ago, xl8 said:

I've done this on my Corr, and as part of an already overladen AC, it keeps my health at 100%. Not essential, but welcome.

Depending on the Corruptor, I can see that.  Same goes for Blasters or even Defenders.  

You may already know this, but I'm not sure everyone else does.  Dehydrate has different healing values for each AT.  Sentinels have the worst modifier out of all of the ATs.  This is also true of Life Drain in Dark Blast which is really freaking odd since *every* AT has a 10% return.  Sentinel's don't.  

Blasters actually start off with the biggest bang per heal on Dehydrate.  Makes some sense there since they have the weakest baseline mitigation out of all 4 ATs with access to Water Blast.  

On 3 out of 4 ATs, Water Blast has a disproportionately high focus on AoE when compared to single target.  This is exacerbated by the fast snipe meta when viewed against other sets.  So common forum knowledge leans towards focusing on the strength of WB's AoE potential.  This means you could skip certain primary powers or slot them in different ways depending on how the secondary enhances the overall play.  In the case of Defenders that would be the primary.  

Sentinels don't get this luxury.  Sentinel secondary sets are raw mitigation sets with a few options that include damage boosters.  Those damage boosters still don't really compare with various support sets or the manipulation sets of Blasters.  

So on your Corruptor you could see a gain of 19% healing on Dehydrate, base, while stacking it on other mitigation.  You could focus really heavily on your 16 target-cap AoEs and layer that with other offense like in Storm Summoning.  You're not going to notice much of a drop in damage by slotting Dehydrate as a heal with Storm.  Same goes for Defenders and their Storm Summoning is even stronger as a primary.  Blasters, depending on secondary, can find other ST powers in that can warrant utility slotting on Dehydrate.  

On Sentinels utility slotting of Dehydrate hinders its role.  Dehydrate is available earlier on Sentinels.  It is also the second highest single target damage attack in their kit.  You won't find another high damage attack (filling a ST role) until Water Jet, and then again until 35 if you take an epic ST melee power.  Aqua Bolt and Hydro Blast can serve a slightly different function on Sentinel Water Blast.  You don't even need both.  

Sentinels don't have the high target caps on AoE like the 3 other ATs do.  Sentinel damage is more distributed between single target and AoE.  In other words, the focus is a bit more balanced between the two modes.  This isn't to create an argument about how effective that outcome is.  This is observational information on the core structure of what the AT actually does.  I go into depth on this else where in this subforum.  

So with all of that long explanation out of the way, why does this matter with Super Reflexes?  Wouldn't slotting for healing be better because it works with the dodge rate?  Simply put, yes, but there is a catch.  

Master Brawler changes the nature of Sentinel mitigation with SR vs how it exists on Scrappers, Stalkers, or Brutes.  MB creates additional effective hit points that do not exist on other ATs.  Dehydrate can absolutely layer that with an SO enhanced +14% baseline heal.  However, you don't need it.  Even Dark Melee/Super Reflexes players don't slot Siphon Life for healing.  Siphon Life is actually a good DPA power that fits within the rotational nature of play.  Dehydrate on Sentinels can function in a similar fashion with the same kind of logic.  

Due to how dodging works, and layered with MB, even the basic 7% heal in Dehydrate (which is the *lowest* version of the effect across all ATs) is enough to keep you healthy.  When Sentinel SR is created with the health return procs currently available, and using MB as needed you don't really need a devoted heal.  At least this is my experience having played SR with other primaries that don't heal at all.  I can still safely run tough content just relying on natural regen and the +hp procs like Panacea and Power Transfer.  

So my original question was more of a Socratic question.  I could have easily asked the question as why bother enhancing the lowest health modifier out of all ATs vs enhancing the second best single target attack on an AT that should be considering both attack modes?  

What works on one AT doesn't necessarily work on this one.  Can you slot Dehydrate for healing here to pad out health?  Yes.  Are there going to be better uses of the enhancement; specifically on the Sentinel?  Absolutely. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by oldskool