water/bio - thoughts?

[Epoch Paradox]

was playing an elec/bio and enjoying around lvl 34 currently. Just from appearances though, I kept thinking water blast might look and feel more like the right choice for me.

quickly worked up a build. Have plenty to work with but thought I'd post what I have here and see if there's anymore interesting thoughts to be had on it.

waterbio - Sentinel (Water Blast).mxd

[oldskool]

My observations: 

 

1) Heavily backloaded on damage until 44 as everything revolves around Knockout Blow and Cross Punch.  

2) Water Burst is the only AoE until 44 (not counting Geyser due to downtime) and Water Burst is the weakest AoE option.

3) Numina unique is better, slightly, than that Heal/End in Inexhaustible.

4) Tactics isn't necessary unless you like everything about it but the +to-hit. 

5) Lots of expensive IOs to push elemental defenses at the expense of questionable damage decisions post-44.  

 

Dehydrate and Steam Spray are better than they look.  Whirlpool does have a downside of making enemies run out of it, but it can be a strong AoE option.  

 

Water Blast struggles on single-target but excels at AoE.  Knockout Blow looks better on paper than it actually is.  KB can be incredible, but it has a base 40 second recharge.  This makes it incredibly difficult to build it into a short window of attack cycle.  You're going to hit recharge cap and still won't be able to hit KB often enough to make it worth your time.  You have Aqua Bolt  > Water Jet > Aqua Bolt spam as filler for most of the character's career.  That is surprisingly strong for what it is but it still falls short of the potential.  

 

Offensive Adaptation is required to move damage potential up and comes with a significant hit to resistances.  

 

Good things: 

 

1) Recharge intensive.  Bio Armor does work well with high recharge to leverage its 3 heal powers.

2) The set choices are good, but the question I have is are those choices worth a loss in damage?  Prolonging combat for defense at the expense of taking things out faster doesn't make a lot of sense unless it is a Tanker.  Even then, a Tanker can do damage.  

3) The power choices are generally good, but the build is just incredibly backloaded.  It requires Offensive Adaptation, Musculature Core T4, a Hybrid Assault, an offensive Interface, *and* consistent Force Feedback procs to keep pace with AV regeneration.  That's just stalemating.  Water Blast in general kinda hovers in that range anyway, but it could be a little better.  

 

So what's important to this build?  Damage?  Mitigation?  Looks?  There may be some tough choices to make in order to improve it in any of those categories because this pair can't do everything. 

 

 

 

 

[Epoch Paradox]

5 hours ago, oldskool said:

My observations: 

 

1) Heavily backloaded on damage until 44 as everything revolves around Knockout Blow and Cross Punch.  

2) Water Burst is the only AoE until 44 (not counting Geyser due to downtime) and Water Burst is the weakest AoE option.

3) Numina unique is better, slightly, than that Heal/End in Inexhaustible.

4) Tactics isn't necessary unless you like everything about it but the +to-hit. 

5) Lots of expensive IOs to push elemental defenses at the expense of questionable damage decisions post-44.  

 

Dehydrate and Steam Spray are better than they look.  Whirlpool does have a downside of making enemies run out of it, but it can be a strong AoE option.  

 

Water Blast struggles on single-target but excels at AoE.  Knockout Blow looks better on paper than it actually is.  KB can be incredible, but it has a base 40 second recharge.  This makes it incredibly difficult to build it into a short window of attack cycle.  You're going to hit recharge cap and still won't be able to hit KB often enough to make it worth your time.  You have Aqua Bolt  > Water Jet > Aqua Bolt spam as filler for most of the character's career.  That is surprisingly strong for what it is but it still falls short of the potential.  

 

Offensive Adaptation is required to move damage potential up and comes with a significant hit to resistances.  

 

Good things: 

 

1) Recharge intensive.  Bio Armor does work well with high recharge to leverage its 3 heal powers.

2) The set choices are good, but the question I have is are those choices worth a loss in damage?  Prolonging combat for defense at the expense of taking things out faster doesn't make a lot of sense unless it is a Tanker.  Even then, a Tanker can do damage.  

3) The power choices are generally good, but the build is just incredibly backloaded.  It requires Offensive Adaptation, Musculature Core T4, a Hybrid Assault, an offensive Interface, *and* consistent Force Feedback procs to keep pace with AV regeneration.  That's just stalemating.  Water Blast in general kinda hovers in that range anyway, but it could be a little better.  

 

So what's important to this build?  Damage?  Mitigation?  Looks?  There may be some tough choices to make in order to improve it in any of those categories because this pair can't do everything. 

 

 

 

 

First thing I would say is - you really seem to know your stuff 🙂

This isn’t the order that I would take a lot of these selections. 
yes whirlpool isn’t something I want to use without something to keep the mobs in it.

I haven’t started leveling this build yet so things like cross punch might well show up much sooner than is shown in the mids build.

if you have a build worked up I’d love to see it.

thanks for the replies - I like this as a concept but no doubt I could easily have my mind changed on some things.

 

If I wanted Uber damage I’d probably just roll another blaster - I have several already

i also have a few tanks and a couple buffer/debuffers 

sentinel is supposed to be somewhere in between these, correct?

Im not entirely sure how a “good” sentinel actually fills their role well. 
mid the end result is something different and fun then I’ll call it a success.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Epoch Paradox

[Epoch Paradox]

Playing with the idea of swapping KO Blow and Crosspunch for whirlpool and fire cages... might make for better tank magery?

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, Epoch Paradox said:

Im not entirely sure how a “good” sentinel actually fills their role well. 
mid the end result is something different and fun then I’ll call it a success.

So for the first point that is a matter of several long and heated threads about the AT.  Sentinel is a very jack of all trades and master of making flame threads.  

 

However, Sentinels can be really good at point number two.  That is building something that is different and that can be fun for the right player.  

 

If you take Cross Punch earlier, then plan to be in a lot melee.  This shouldn't be a big deal later on once you start getting the heals and shields.  Parasitic Leech is a big cone so being close isn't going to be a problem.   Running Cross Punch -> Aqua Bolt -> Water Jet -> Aqua Bolt, etc... is something you can do at high recharge.  Cross Punch is really good so that isn't a complaint.  If you're in melee range then Steam Spray becomes a nice addition.  Both Sentinel ATOs widen the cone and it hits 10 targets.  Something to at least consider.  You don't need Tactics and Vengeance so you have some powers you could dump if you wanted.  Dehydrate could be a filler if your attack chain feels light and it will heal you.  You could potentially skip it if you like.  

I'd consider reducing some of your elemental defense in bonuses and look for melee ones.  Your resistance powers can take the Unbreakable Guards for 4pcs which is a nice melee defense boost.  At 3 slots you get Energy/Negative resistance which you are weak on.  It is worth looking at.  Bio Armor here has a bit of defense debuff resistance so stacking defense is a pretty decent plan.  

 

I don't have a build per se.  I'm tinkering in Mids as I type so I know you can get into the 30's+ on Melee, and each of the elemental defenses.  You will take a hit on S/L resistance, but the Bio Armor absorbs are really strong.  Sentinels are plenty durable but they aren't close to Tankers.  

Anyway, what you have has potential just tossing some ideas around to think about other avenues and all that. 

[Epoch Paradox]

4 minutes ago, oldskool said:

So for the first point that is a matter of several long and heated threads about the AT.  Sentinel is a very jack of all trades and master of making flame threads.  

 

However, Sentinels can be really good at point number two.  That is building something that is different and that can be fun for the right player.  

 

If you take Cross Punch earlier, then plan to be in a lot melee.  This shouldn't be a big deal later on once you start getting the heals and shields.  Parasitic Leech is a big cone so being close isn't going to be a problem.   Running Cross Punch -> Aqua Bolt -> Water Jet -> Aqua Bolt, etc... is something you can do at high recharge.  Cross Punch is really good so that isn't a complaint.  If you're in melee range then Steam Spray becomes a nice addition.  Both Sentinel ATOs widen the cone and it hits 10 targets.  Something to at least consider.  You don't need Tactics and Vengeance so you have some powers you could dump if you wanted.  Dehydrate could be a filler if your attack chain feels light and it will heal you.  You could potentially skip it if you like.  

I'd consider reducing some of your elemental defense in bonuses and look for melee ones.  Your resistance powers can take the Unbreakable Guards for 4pcs which is a nice melee defense boost.  At 3 slots you get Energy/Negative resistance which you are weak on.  It is worth looking at.  Bio Armor here has a bit of defense debuff resistance so stacking defense is a pretty decent plan.  

 

I don't have a build per se.  I'm tinkering in Mids as I type so I know you can get into the 30's+ on Melee, and each of the elemental defenses.  You will take a hit on S/L resistance, but the Bio Armor absorbs are really strong.  Sentinels are plenty durable but they aren't close to Tankers.  

Anyway, what you have has potential just tossing some ideas around to think about other avenues and all that. 

It’s all very much appreciated. I realize there’s debates but I’m more curious to learn what was intended by the developers than to make up my own mind what it’s supposed to be - which of course would be tanker durability with blaster damage 😉

I made a build on beta that has fire cages and whirlpool in place of KO and Crosspunch - I’ll test it more later.

I’m curious. Do you play oldskool beatdown?

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, Epoch Paradox said:

It’s all very much appreciated. I realize there’s debates but I’m more curious to learn what was intended by the developers than to make up my own mind what it’s supposed to be - which of course would be tanker durability with blaster damage 😉

I made a build on beta that has fire cages and whirlpool in place of KO and Crosspunch - I’ll test it more later.

I’m curious. Do you play oldskool beatdown?

That role was already stated to be a ranged damage dealer like a Scrapper but with a rollercoaster mechanic on damage.  It isn't performing in the manner it was supposed to.  That's a paraphrased statement.  

I don't play whatever that is.  If oldschool beatdowns include Double Dragon, Bad Dudes, or Street Fighter, then yeah. 😛 

[Epoch Paradox]

32 minutes ago, oldskool said:

That role was already stated to be a ranged damage dealer like a Scrapper but with a rollercoaster mechanic on damage.  It isn't performing in the manner it was supposed to.  That's a paraphrased statement.  

I don't play whatever that is.  If oldschool beatdowns include Double Dragon, Bad Dudes, or Street Fighter, then yeah. 😛 

So there’s some posts basically saying the whole AT is up for an overhaul at some point?

 

”Oldskool Beatdown” is the name of a brute I’ve teamed with recently. Thought maybe that was you.

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, Epoch Paradox said:

So there’s some posts basically saying the whole AT is up for an overhaul at some point?

The Opportunity inherent and mechanic is likely up for some kind of rework.  What that will look like is anyone's guess.  Whether or not there will be any review of the power sets themselves for buffs is also up in the air.  

For the most part, Sentinel secondary power sets are pretty good. They scale at 0.7 of the Tanker scale where as Stalkers and Scrappers scale at 0.75.  That's about 2~% on defenses and resistances.  Not too big a deal but I find it annoying.  

Sentinel damage scale is 0.95 but the damage issue is compounded with a legacy system that really did pamper melee heavily.  In a world where snipes weren't all insta-cast, the Sentinel's snipe replacements had a place in the game.  Now they just don't compete all that well.  If the inherent doesn't contribute to damage or teamplay then folks might be a bit pissed off.  🙂 

That said, Sentinels can do better damage than much of community ever bothers to give it credit.  It just isn't on par with the power creep because the AT hasn't had a pass like Blasters (twice now), or Tankers, or whatever is the FotM. 

[Epoch Paradox]

58 minutes ago, oldskool said:

The Opportunity inherent and mechanic is likely up for some kind of rework.  What that will look like is anyone's guess.  Whether or not there will be any review of the power sets themselves for buffs is also up in the air.  

For the most part, Sentinel secondary power sets are pretty good. They scale at 0.7 of the Tanker scale where as Stalkers and Scrappers scale at 0.75.  That's about 2~% on defenses and resistances.  Not too big a deal but I find it annoying.  

Sentinel damage scale is 0.95 but the damage issue is compounded with a legacy system that really did pamper melee heavily.  In a world where snipes weren't all insta-cast, the Sentinel's snipe replacements had a place in the game.  Now they just don't compete all that well.  If the inherent doesn't contribute to damage or teamplay then folks might be a bit pissed off.  🙂 

That said, Sentinels can do better damage than much of community ever bothers to give it credit.  It just isn't on par with the power creep because the AT hasn't had a pass like Blasters (twice now), or Tankers, or whatever is the FotM. 

slightly less durability than scrapper/stalker and dmg is on par with... defender I'm guessing? I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting some kind of overhaul but nothing to get inflamed about... first world problems sheesh!

[Underfyre]

Here's the data for an insta-snipe (assuming +0 mobs and no To Hit buffs)  : 

Corruptor: (((MIN(MAX(((To_Hit - 0.75) / 0.22), -1), 1)) * 0.210526316) + 1) * 95.09 = 95.09  ...+3 = 75.07

Dominator: ((MIN(MAX(((To_Hit - 0.75) / 0.22), -1), 1) * 0.25) + 0.75) * 188.07 = 141.05  ...+3 = 94.03

Blaster: ((MIN(MAX(((To_Hit - 0.75) / 0.22), -1), 1) * 0.210526316) + 1) * 142.64 = 142.64  ...+3 = 112.61

 

Corruptors have it pretty bad. Doms are good but don't scale as well against higher levels.

[Epoch Paradox]

33 minutes ago, underfyre said:

Here's the data for an insta-snipe (assuming +0 mobs and no To Hit buffs)  : 

Corruptor: (((MIN(MAX(((To_Hit - 0.75) / 0.22), -1), 1)) * 0.210526316) + 1) * 95.09 = 95.09  ...+3 = 75.07

Dominator: ((MIN(MAX(((To_Hit - 0.75) / 0.22), -1), 1) * 0.25) + 0.75) * 188.07 = 141.05  ...+3 = 94.03

Blaster: ((MIN(MAX(((To_Hit - 0.75) / 0.22), -1), 1) * 0.210526316) + 1) * 142.64 = 142.64  ...+3 = 112.61

 

Corruptors have it pretty bad. Doms are good but don't scale as well against higher levels.

I would think sentinels would more closely compare to defenders as far as overall damage output. Do you have access to those numbers?

[Underfyre]

Sentinel numbers are all virtually in the clear and not buried in a formula, so what you see in character creation is what they are. That said, check out this post.

 

 

https://jsoneditoronline.org/ is an easy place to read that. I hear you also read it easy in Firefox.

 

[oldskool]

9 hours ago, Epoch Paradox said:

I would think sentinels would more closely compare to defenders as far as overall damage output. Do you have access to those numbers?

Defenders have a lower damage scale than Sentinels.  However damage scale isn't really the prime factor to consider for Defender overall damage output.  Defender primaries are support sets but these sets include some incredibly potent force multipliers.  Some sets like Storm Summoning can be so strong due to pet use they eclipse the damage dealing secondary by quite a bit.  Storm Summoning can be so powerful it can make Controllers do ridiculous levels of damage which is well outsider their AT modifiers.  

So "overall" damage isn't as simple as comparing blast to blast numbers.  Same can be said for Blasters who mix melee with ranged attacks. Those brave souls are capable of so much more than their blast sets would lead one to believe.

[Underfyre]

That's why I'm dabbling in Corruptors right now. A Time set is reasonably capable of capping defenses and has the 22.5% Resistance debuff to increase damage. I'm just missing the baked in mez resists, but I guess that will make it easier to get the Hold Badges? It's definitely easier to get the Healing badges.

[oldskool]

35 minutes ago, underfyre said:

That's why I'm dabbling in Corruptors right now. A Time set is reasonably capable of capping defenses and has the 22.5% Resistance debuff to increase damage. I'm just missing the baked in mez resists, but I guess that will make it easier to get the Hold Badges? It's definitely easier to get the Healing badges.

It does take getting used to.  I tend to prefer Defenders over Corruptors personally, but I do want to rebuild a /Traps Corr at some point.  Always loved that set on that AT.  

I have a lot of Sentinels but I also play Defenders, Tankers, and Controllers.  There are already plenty of brilliant folks contributing in those forums so I don't speak out there that much.