Some questions about defense...

[Nightmare Shaman]

I've been playing on and off since CoH beta and am somewhat familiar with soft and hard caps.  I've read over threads about this and read over this: https://cityofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics

What I don't understand is how the game handles excess defense numbers when faced with higher level mobs and/or AV's.  For example, assume I have an SR tank with 45% on all positional defense.  Against an even leveled mob with base accuracy attacks, they have a 5% chance of hitting me. I get that.  I also get that any defense above that would not bypass the 5% hardcap on the enemies' tohit chance.

But, what if I'm fighting +4 mobs?  Or an AV?  Does having above 45% offset the accuracy increase?  Like is it possible to have my defenses at 70% or 80% so that any accuracy increase from the mobs will assure I am always at the 5% hard cap?  Also, although I know

In the long run, I never want any mob or AV to have above the 5% tohit chance regardless of level.  (Assuming I only fight +4 mobs)

 

Any info would be appreciated.

[HexxenBeast]

Yes, you can overcap to offset defense debuffs, or level differences. It's why for Incarna content positions softcaps are 59% and not 45%

[Carnifax]

11 minutes ago, Nightmare Shaman said:

I've been playing on and off since CoH beta and am somewhat familiar with soft and hard caps.  I've read over threads about this and read over this: https://cityofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics

What I don't understand is how the game handles excess defense numbers when faced with higher level mobs and/or AV's.  For example, assume I have an SR tank with 45% on all positional defense.  Against an even leveled mob with base accuracy attacks, they have a 5% chance of hitting me. I get that.  I also get that any defense above that would not bypass the 5% hardcap on the enemies' tohit chance.

But, what if I'm fighting +4 mobs?  Or an AV?  Does having above 45% offset the accuracy increase?  Like is it possible to have my defenses at 70% or 80% so that any accuracy increase from the mobs will assure I am always at the 5% hard cap?  Also, although I know

In the long run, I never want any mob or AV to have above the 5% tohit chance regardless of level.  (Assuming I only fight +4 mobs)

 

Any info would be appreciated.

Nope, the cap hits 1st, then the Purple Patch / Level modifiers kick in. 

 

So it doesn't matter if you've 45% Def or 95% Def, that +4 enemy will be hitting you more than 5% of the time (7.5% I think for +4 Minions). Incarnate content is different. They essentiallly have a 12.5% ToHit bonus welded in (ToHit directly opposed Def hence why the Incarnate cap is 57.5%). 

 

So you can overcap to battle Def Debuffs or ToHit buffs but overcapping has no effect on Level modifiers. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Carnifax

[Nightmare Shaman]

38 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

Nope, the cap hits 1st, then the Purple Patch / Level modifiers kick in. 

 

So it doesn't matter if you've 45% Def or 95% Def, that +4 enemy will be hitting you more than 5% of the time (7.5% I think for +4 Minions). Incarnate content is different. They essentiallly have a 12.5% ToHit bonus welded in (ToHit directly opposed Def hence why the Incarnate cap is 57.5%). 

 

So you can overcap to battle Def Debuffs or ToHit buffs but overcapping has no effect on Level modifiers. 

Okay great.  So, let's ignore the incarnate modifier for a second.  Here's my calculations from your info and the info from the link I posted:

+1 enemies: .05 X 1.1 = .055 (5.5%)
+2 enemies: .05 X 1.2 = .06  (6%)
+3 enemies: .05 X 1.3 = .065 (6.5%)
+4 enemies: .05 X 1.4 = .07  (7%)

So this is strictly for regular mobs.  There are additional modifiers for different ranks as follows:

 

Lieutenant	1.15
Boss, Elite Boss, Sniper	1.30
Monster, Giant Monster, AV	1.50

Do you know if those are additive?  As in:

 

 

Lieutenant
+1 enemies: .05 X 1.25 = .063 (6.3%)
+2 enemies: .05 X 1.35 = .068  (6.8%)
+3 enemies: .05 X 1.45 = .073 (7.3%)
+4 enemies: .05 X 1.55 = .078  (7.8%)

Bosses
+1 enemies: .05 X 1.4 = .07 (7.0%)
+2 enemies: .05 X 1.5 = .075  (7.5%)
+3 enemies: .05 X 1.6 = .008 (8.0%)
+4 enemies: .05 X 1.7 = .085  (8.5%)

AV's
+1 enemies: .05 X 1.6 = .08 (8.0%)
+2 enemies: .05 X 1.7 = .085  (8.5%)
+3 enemies: .05 X 1.8 = .09 (9.0%)
+4 enemies: .05 X 1.9 = .095  (9.5%)

 

Really appreciate the info.
 

 

 

[Nightmare Shaman]

58 minutes ago, HexxenBeast said:

Yes, you can overcap to offset defense debuffs, or level differences. It's why for Incarna content positions softcaps are 59% and not 45%

Thank you.

[Linea]

Accuracy and Defense interact, but are not the same, so ... yes.

Yes, a +4 AV will hit you more than a +4 minion.   Can't swear your numbers are 100% accurate without digging up an ancient spreadsheet I have somewhere.

 

This is why defense-cap builds balance roughly with resist-cap builds ... assuming 50+1 vs 54 content, in the standard game, and max dps levels of official content.   Resist builds typically have more HP/S (regen or healing), and cap at 90% (10% incoming damage) .. while defense has less HP/S and cap at a rough average of 8%.  Now, if you don't resist-cap this doesn't work, if you're running +0 there is also an imbalance, and if you're debuffed below -35% defense vs +4s there is also another imbalance.  But in the end, the parity of resist-cap (tank brute) vs defense-cap is actually much closer than most people realize, despite the baked in imbalances in the game. (Roughly, Conceptually Speaking)

Edited May 3, 2021 by Linea

[Nightmare Shaman]

9 minutes ago, Linea said:

Accuracy and Defense interact, but are not the same, so ... yes.

Yes, a +4 AV will hit you more than a +4 minion.   Can't swear your numbers are 100% accurate without digging up an ancient spreadsheet I have somewhere.

 

This is why defense-cap builds balance roughly with resist-cap builds ... assuming 50+1 vs 54 content, in the standard game, and max dps levels of official content.   Resist builds typically have more HP/S (regen or healing), and cap at 90% .. while defense has less HP/S and cap at a rough average of 8%.  Now, if you don't resist-cap this doesn't work, if you're running +0 there is also an imbalance, and if you're debuffed below -35% defense vs +4s there is also another imbalance.  But in the end, the parity of resist-cap (tank brute) vs defense-cap is actually much closer than most people realize, despite the baked in imbalances in the game. (Roughly, Conceptually Speaking)

 

I calculated the numbers two posts above you.  If I'm calculating this right, it should look like this:

Regular mobs

+1 enemies: .05 X 1.1 = .055 (5.5%)
+2 enemies: .05 X 1.2 = .06  (6.0%)
+3 enemies: .05 X 1.3 = .065 (6.5%)
+4 enemies: .05 X 1.4 = .07  (7.0%)

Lieutenant
+1 enemies: .05 X 1.25 = .063 (6.3%)
+2 enemies: .05 X 1.35 = .068  (6.8%)
+3 enemies: .05 X 1.45 = .073 (7.3%)
+4 enemies: .05 X 1.55 = .078  (7.8%)

Bosses
+1 enemies: .05 X 1.4 = .07 (7.0%)
+2 enemies: .05 X 1.5 = .075  (7.5%)
+3 enemies: .05 X 1.6 = .008 (8.0%)
+4 enemies: .05 X 1.7 = .085  (8.5%)

AV's
+1 enemies: .05 X 1.6 = .08 (8.0%)
+2 enemies: .05 X 1.7 = .085  (8.5%)
+3 enemies: .05 X 1.8 = .09 (9.0%)
+4 enemies: .05 X 1.9 = .095  (9.5%)

Edited April 20, 2021 by Nightmare Shaman