Some questions about electicity control and trick arrow

[siran]

After the recent significant buff of trick arrow from being (In my opionion not universally shared) the worst power set in the game into a pretty decent set I've been experimenting with it. My trick arrow/sonic defender is just great (if a little fragile) and seems to offer a lot to players.

 

I'm now looking how to use trick arrow with a controller. A goal I have been trying to accomplish in a controller is to be one that can

• Confuse large number of opponents in every spawn (perhaps twice in a spawn)
  • Debuff those opponent's damage resistance and defence without debuffing their to hit and damage done
• Deal with adds when the mass confuse power is on cool down (static field)
• Handle large number of bosses (static field/poison gas arrow/end drain)
  • ITF first mission ambush: I am thinking of you
• Can do large amounts of damage in a burst
  • Ideally a nuke (oil slick )
• Can do decent damage to a single target

 

I'm hoping to accomplish these goals with electricity / trick arrow. I consider plant but I have a number of issues with it: while I love the damage and the simplicity it's not fun playing against the Rularuu or against Nemesis. And as a controller it's not great in that ITF ambush! I have a couple of high level plant/ (1 dominator and 1 controller) and both fold like paper bags in that encounter (maybe that's a reflection of my personal low level of skill... but there are so many bosses even dominated seeds of confusion doesn't cut it)

 

So it seems to me there would be two modes of play: 

 

Mode 1: Using sleep/endurance drain/lockdown

This is the traditional electrical control... and it's great for locking down opponents. Again in the ITF example as an electrical controller it's straightforwards to drain even the elite bosses and stop them going into god mode. This is where we get a nice synerge (potentially) with poison gas arrow as it two does a pulsating sleep field (I think) although quite low ranking. Trick arrow helps here with it's fantastic to hit debuff/damage reduction and so on.

 

Questions about mode1:

• Does poison gas arrow and static field 'stack'. i.e. will bosses go to sleep if I hit them with both
• How does EMP arrow work
  • when draining endurance: the text says '-xx% to endurance / unresitable' and -xx% endurance. I don't understand the two listing...
  • the text says '-xx% strength to... a lot of things'. Is that for friend or foes?
• Ice arrow says '-xx% endurance'.. but I haven't seen any endurance loss when I use it. What's happening?

 

 

Mode 2: Using confusion 

Much more interesting. Here we can open with synaptic overload. When it has spread enough... dropping an acid arrow and a disruption arrow does great things to allow the targets to do much more self inflicted damage.  And dropping an oil slick should helpdo quite significant damage

 

Questions about mode 2:

• Is the contagious confusion good or bad in synaptic overload?
• Does the acid arrow actually debuff defence... the text says lots of things, and I know some of it is 'special' like 'reduces your debuff resistance'. So is this debuff defence or debuff DDR?
• Ice arrow says -'xx% confuse'. What is this actually doing
• oil slick arrow in the main text says '-def' but in the detailed text I can't find anything just 'does damage' and '-run speed'
• Is there anything to remove the knockdown from oil slick arrow (I can't think of anything but I thought I would ask)

 

General questions

• Is there any milage in the 'heal self' proc in
  • Conductive Aura
  • Jolting Chains
  • Chain Fences
• Is there any milage in Performance Shifter proc in 
  • The same list..
• The most interesting power from the point of procs looks to be jolting chains
  • How would you slot it?
• Is there any advantage in putting procs into gremlins?

 

What patron would people select for this? Obvious Mu would give great endurance drain... but is there a better synergy

 

Thank you in advance for any help

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Uun]

28 minutes ago, siran said:

Does the acid arrow actually debuff defence... the text says lots of things, and I know some of it is 'special' like 'reduces your debuff resistance'. So is this debuff defence or debuff DDR?

It debuffs defense AND it debuffs resistance to endurance, recovery, tohit, regen, recharge and heal debuffs.

 

32 minutes ago, siran said:

Ice arrow says -'xx% confuse'. What is this actually doing

It debuffs the strength of mezz effects used by the target, although I'm not sure if it reduces duration, magnitude or both.

 

36 minutes ago, siran said:

oil slick arrow in the main text says '-def' but in the detailed text I can't find anything just 'does damage' and '-run speed'

Yes, 25% -def for controllers https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pets.oilslickoil.oil_slick&at=minion_pets

 

44 minutes ago, siran said:

How does EMP arrow work

• when draining endurance: the text says '-xx% to endurance / unresitable' and -xx% endurance. I don't understand the two listing...
• the text says '-xx% strength to... a lot of things'. Is that for friend or foes?

A portion of the endurance drain is unresistable (and a portion can be resisted). EMP has both a foe debuff and an ally buff. The ally buff is damage resistance and mezz protection.

 

49 minutes ago, siran said:

Ice arrow says '-xx% endurance'.. but I haven't seen any endurance loss when I use it. What's happening?

It debuffs the strength of end drain powers used by the target.

[Carnifax]

I've an Elec/Poison and a Grav/TA and you've hit on some interesting synergies between Elec & TA which seem fun. Both Jolting and Acid Arrow are good proc candidates. 

 

Epic-wise Mu makes most sense overall, but Elec does like being in close for Conductive Aura draining so Earth or Frozen might work too (for the S/L shield). Frozen Armour will also take both Def and Resist sets so a good choice for a defensive armour where you can also slot the Resist uniques (so you can skip fighting). 

 

I've cobbled together a build by merging my two but trying to squeeze everything in is hard (I can do it if I go Mu though). You can always replace Leadership with Fighting if you prefer. Synaptic almost forces you into the purple set for the 5% range def. Normally Malaises Illusion is a good sub but if the Proc goes off it alerts them. 

 

It'll be a very clickie combo though. *Edit : Also at the moment EMP Arrow is bugged and does No Hold At All (got me killed one day). Known issue apparently. 

Spoiler

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.5.9
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Quantum Arrow: Level 50 Technology Controller
Primary Power Set: Electric Control
Secondary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Tesla Cage -- SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SprWiloft-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(3), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(3), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(5), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(46)
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- Acc-I(A)
Level 2: Chain Fences -- PreOptmz-Acc/Rech(A), PreOptmz-EndMod/End(7), PreOptmz-EndMod/Rech(7), PreOptmz-EndMod/Acc/End(9), PreOptmz-EndMod/End/Rech(9), PreOptmz-EndMod/Acc/Rech(40)
Level 4: Flash Arrow -- DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb(A), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/Rchg(11), DarWtcDsp-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(11), DarWtcDsp-Rchg/EndRdx(13)
Level 6: Jolting Chain -- Thn-Acc/Dmg(A), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(15), ExpStr-Dam%(15), GldJvl-Dam%(17), Apc-Dam%(43)
Level 8: Conductive Aura -- PreOptmz-EndMod/Acc/End(A), PreOptmz-EndMod/Acc/Rech(45), EndMod-I(46)
Level 10: Ice Arrow -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(19), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(19), BslGaz-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(21)
Level 12: Static Field -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 14: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(46)
Level 16: Poison Gas Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Paralyzing Blast -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(21), BslGaz-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(23), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(23), GhsWdwEmb-Acc/Hold/Rchg(48)
Level 20: Acid Arrow -- TchofLadG-%Dam(A), PstBls-Dam%(25), AchHee-ResDeb%(25), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(42), JvlVll-Dam%(42), ShlBrk-%Dam(42)
Level 22: Fly -- Flight-I(A)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 26: Synaptic Overload -- CrcPrs-Conf(A), CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg(27), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(29), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg(29), CrcPrs-Conf/EndRdx(31), CrcPrs-Conf%(31)
Level 28: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(17), DefBuff-I(43)
Level 32: Gremlins -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(33), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(34), ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(34)
Level 35: Oil Slick Arrow -- Artl-Acc/Dam(A), Artl-Dam/End(36), Artl-Dam/Rech(36), Artl-Acc/Dam/Rech(36), Artl-Acc/Rech/Rng(37), Artl-End/Rech/Rng(37)
Level 38: EMP Arrow -- Lck-Acc/Hold(A), Lck-Acc/Rchg(39), Lck-Rchg/Hold(39), Lck-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(39), Lck-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(40), Lck-%Hold(40)
Level 41: Tactics -- GssSynFr--Build%(A)
Level 44: Charged Armor -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(45), ResDam-I(45), ResDam-I(27)
Level 47: Ball Lightning -- Artl-Acc/Dam(A), Artl-Dam/End(48), Artl-Dam/Rech(48), Artl-Acc/Dam/Rech(50), Artl-Acc/Rech/Rng(50), Artl-End/Rech/Rng(50)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Containment 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(34), EndMod-I(37)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 22: Afterburner 
------------

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Carnifax

[Corythia]

I don't know about others, but I am not really impressed with Electrics confuse power.  It hits a single target, then spreads from there one target at a time.  By the time it's spread to a majority of the mob, you could have already defeated most of them doing something else(say sleep patch followed by spamming chains and cages).  Also it doesn't last long even when slotted for confuse, so the first mob is unconfused before the last mob is infected.  If you really want to confuse mobs, Plant is MUCH better. Seeds is up more often, lasts longer, and hits an entire spawn in one shot once you get used to aiming it.  It's not that I won't use electrics confuse - it's an OK opener when soloing, it's just that it's not all that effective so I wouldn't base a strategy on it.  It's best use is like that of Illusion's single target confuse, to take control of a very nasty/useful  lieutenant at the start of the fight, anything it accomplishes beyond that is gravy, because it's not all that reliable.

[Carnifax]

1 hour ago, Corythia said:

I don't know about others, but I am not really impressed with Electrics confuse power.  It hits a single target, then spreads from there one target at a time.  By the time it's spread to a majority of the mob, you could have already defeated most of them doing something else(say sleep patch followed by spamming chains and cages).  Also it doesn't last long even when slotted for confuse, so the first mob is unconfused before the last mob is infected.  If you really want to confuse mobs, Plant is MUCH better. Seeds is up more often, lasts longer, and hits an entire spawn in one shot once you get used to aiming it.  It's not that I won't use electrics confuse - it's an OK opener when soloing, it's just that it's not all that effective so I wouldn't base a strategy on it.  It's best use is like that of Illusion's single target confuse, to take control of a very nasty/useful  lieutenant at the start of the fight, anything it accomplishes beyond that is gravy, because it's not all that reliable.

Totally agree with this. It's like half an aoe confuse. Elec is basically lots of weird layered light-ish controls. But Trick arrow should help with that. 

[Corythia]

I've been thinking some more about this, and I am wondering if you chains while mobs are being knocked down on oil slick, will the mobs instead be knocked off it?  I know some times when I stack enough kd in one patch that some mobs will be knocked back.  This happens with Earth Quake + Freezing Rain + Gale with a kb to kd IO some times on my Earth/Storm.   Since Electric's cages don't prevent kb, will this be likely with chains + oil slick?   If so, it might be poor synergy.   I might be off on this, but I know sometimes things get knocked off my kd patches when I have multiple kds being applied at the same time.  With fire, Ice, and Earth you can use cages to stop it, but electrics cages don't.

[Uun]

3 hours ago, Carnifax said:

Edit : Also at the moment EMP Arrow is bugged and does No Hold At All (got me killed one day). Known issue apparently. 

I don't have EMP Arrow in my current TA build so wasn't aware of this, but it explains why the EMP Arrow Burst pseudo pet is missing from the Controller and Corrupter versions of Trick Arrow on CoD. Suggests that the power currently doesn't debuff or do damage either?

[siran]

Thanks for the details about how the powers work  @Uun: really helpful. I'm still not sure if poison gas works with static field, but I'll go do some experimenting (I've created the toon now, and am 20ish). I'm looking forwards to seeing if EMP arrow helps me against a load of elite bosses. That's quite some time in the future (I tend not to double xp anymore and just enjoy the ride) but with that, conductive aura, static field and chain fences there is a lot of drain going one before we mention patron powers. 

 

I half agree with the comments on confuse. I have an electric kinetic... and everything I do as that character control wise is about end drain. I just drain everything, do FS and other people do damage (And kinetics is so busy that it's a lot of fun to play). Although I 6 slotted the synaptic overload it's pretty much an afterthought, and by the time I do it the bad guys can't attack anyway as they have no endurance.

 

My problem with the only other real candidate( mind doesn't come close... it's a confuse every three swarms or so,) is plant. The problem with plant is that it feels like a one trick pony. It is a good trick. Especially at low level when at level 6+ you just rule the battle field. But against dangerous opponents I find that even as a dominator with permadom I end up face planting a lot. That might just be I am not very good at playing the toon, but I think it's more about the nature of being a cone, and that often there are 'more bad guys out there'. The nice thing about electric is that it has multiple control strategies... and they are all good

 

I usually duo and run at around +2x8. I find at that level we don't 'just wipe out the baddies'. It takes us time. Actually I've never had a controller that can 'just wipe the baddies in a few seconds'. I'm kindof interested to see if I can make the confuse do serious damage, and for that I think I need to debuff the baddies defence/resist as I can't increase their raw damage

 

After reading the above though I think I am more taken with plant/trick than I was . Trick arrow has a lot of control and debuffto compensate for plants one trick nature. It might be nice to see how it would fair against rularuu/arachnos/nemesis at reasonable difficulty levels. Also both of them do well at range...and with glue arrow they tend to stay at range.

 

[Uun]

Electric is the only control set I haven't played, although I've teamed with plenty.

 

I think Mind works a lot better on a dominator. You don't have to worry about setting up containment, with permadom Mass Confusion is up every 70-90 seconds (and affects bosses), and you can fill with Total Domination or Terrify when it's on cooldown. 

 

The other candidate for confuse that you don't mention is Ice, although I don't think you'll get the damage you're looking for from Arctic Air as it also does fear, -speed and -recharge. I had an Ice/TA back on live, and while it didn't defeat stuff quickly, it sure could control a battlefield.

[siran]

I've played quite a lot of electric control. In many ways it's superb: the sleep power is (I think) the only sleep power that's actually good, and the endurance game is another layer of defence. it's not perfect, but it dramatically reduces damage coming in. I'm particalarly fond of using it to stop bosses or elite bosses going into god mode (works great against paragon protectors, minotaurs/cyclops...) I'm not sure it's great on domiators as very little of the control benefits from dominate

 

I did think about ice... but as you say ice intrisically reduces the damage coming in. I want to see if I can get a confuse power that does serious amounts of damage, and thus debuffing damaging causing ability isn't a started. 

 

Mind... isn't even a starter. I know a lot of people rave about it for dominators. Having tried it... it's just not as good as a fortunata or a dark/xxx for my personal play style. The arguments about 'you can spend forever and do a taskforce by stealth' don't cut it for me. And the recharge times on it's powers are laughable. It just doesn't have the 'deal with the spawn every time' power that dark or plant or even fire have. it doesn't even have a way (other than mass hold every x mins) to set up mass containment. The 'iconic power' of TK is the most skipable power because it's frankly crap.  The mass confusion is on such a long timer that it's not going to work for this project. There are a couple of places in the entire game where it feels good (Miss Liberty TF/Lord Recluse TF) and for me thats it. Some people are in the 'it's the best dominator primary camp' and I'm in the 'well I deleted my character because it sucked compared to every other controller/dom and when they buff it I will try it again camp'. Perhaps they will give it the same love they gave trick arrow, then it will be good 

 

I am trying with the elec/TA now... up to about level 25. So far it's been fun: but a large part of that is that elec is crazy strong after level 12. I'm looking forwards to getting synaptic overload and finally oil slick. It's going to be interesting to see if synaptic overload is actually usable if you build for it, which means we can leave static field and endurance draining for the encounters that are full of bosses or hard targets like rularuu/nemesis

 

 

[siran]

So I can report on how well this went.

 

The goals  were

• to have a character that can confuse every swarm and debuff their def/resistance increasing the damage they do to each other.
• To not be a one trick pony (like plant) so that if you meet confuse resiliant opponents there are other options

 

I just duoed (with a titan weapons/bio scrapper) a moonfire at +2/x8.

•  I had the two damages in a six slotted synaptic overload and had disruption arrow and acid arrow. (not enough for the second hold)
• I had a couple of damage procs in jolting chains and four in one of the holds

We experimented a bit where 'I was doing most of the damage' and 'where the scrapper tanked first to group them and then blast'The results were interesting

• Electric control is so very good at sapping .Even with the aura off within a few seconds almost everything was sapped. Perhaps that's because every sapping power had end mods in it... and I could 'not do that' but that gives up the protection when against confuse resiliant opponents
• It did work surprisingly well. The synaptic overload is a great power, and i think it's better without the damage procs as it doesn't alert them without the damage
• But... to get rid of an aggro cap bunch of werewolves took about two minutes to solo. Nothing to write home about. I think a large part of it was the endurance drain being so good... most of the time the bubble headed wolves just stood around
• The bosses weren't a problem with two holds rapidly recycling.

I did get defeated a couple of times... but that's normal for me with a controller... It takes a lot of sustained situational awareness when your defences are 'get them first'. I think if I had been using sleep more it would have gone a little smoother

 

The most important thing for me was how enjoyable it was. Trick arrow lifts elec control's damage output noticably. Obviously my elec/kinetic can do more... but only really at level 33+ and I exemplar a lot.

 

On the whole I think it's not going to work the way I wanted, but the character is surprisingly enjoyable to play. I'll probably spend a while getting to 50 and then try again with a plant/trick arrow and see how that goes.

 

 

[SeraphimKensai]

I have significant experience with every powerset referenced in this thread, and a few thoughts:

 

Elec control- it's one of my fav control sets. But the thread seems to want confused mobs to attack each other. When elec control is fully slotted especially with an IO build and incarnates, mobs will not have any endurance at all to attack anything, they just won't.

 

If you're going to IO your toon, and honestly I wouldn't see why you wouldn't, proc out Jolting Chain, Ice Arrow, and Acid Arrow all with damage procs. You will get a surprising amount of damage out of all three when properly proced.

 

Personally if I was going to do this, I would make a Plant/TA and IO it (but then again I make all my toons gods). Perma Seeds, Carrion Creepers, Roots, Oil Slick, Disruption/EMP Arrow, and dropping proced out acid/ice arrows. You'd have 2 single target holds in your chain as well for instant mag on a boss and to help stack for AV's and Mending Mitos. Hell I might just make this as I've been trying to come up with another toon to lvl to 50 and build out as after 111, I'm running low on ideas.

[SeraphimKensai]

20 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Personally if I was going to do this, I would make a Plant/TA and IO it (but then again I make all my toons gods). Perma Seeds, Carrion Creepers, Roots, Oil Slick, Disruption/EMP Arrow, and dropping proced out acid/ice arrows. You'd have 2 single target holds in your chain as well for instant mag on a boss and to help stack for AV's and Mending Mitos. Hell I might just make this as I've been trying to come up with another toon to lvl to 50 and build out as after 111, I'm running low on ideas.

 

So I decided to put my money/time where my mouth was and give a Plant/TA Controller a roll, and got it to 50, made a build and tossed in everything I wanted (~250mil). I still need get incarnates, but opening with flash arrow and seeds then debuff and then pow. I proc'd the hell out of ice arrow, poisonous ray, carrion creepers and acid arrow and this thing punches.
Only drawback I've seen is you're reliant on teammates for heals outside of Poison Gas Arrow (Chance to Placate/Heal), and Power Transfer Chance to Heals in Disruption and EMP arrows / panacea in health. I softcapped S/L/E. I'm going to be field testing it further over the next week or so, but so far its pretty fun.

[siran]

As you mentioned @grass Elec control just doesn't work well as a confuse engine. By a few seconds into the fight nothing has enough endurance to even breath. Even elite bosses are standing there weazing and not able to get into god mode. But.... gosh it's a lot of fun with Elec/Trick arrow. As long as you get the drop on them... nothing can hit you. poison gas does seem to stack some of the time with static field (still haven't worked out how they interoperate... but I do get bosses sleeping which I never before). I haven't got to oil slick (still two levels away) and  I think it will make a huge difference to damage output.

 

As I mentioned above I am now quite taken with plant/trick arrow. My problem with plant /  has always been that it is a one trick pony with nothing to fall back on when the confuses work. I suspect trick arrow will offer enough control that when fighting hard targets there are still effective options. And fighting Rularuu / Nemesis is only a tiny part of the game. I'm quite slow leveling (I often don't even double xp) as I like to enjoy the journey, and one nice thing about plant/trick arrow is that some of the best powers come really early