Adding an actual confusion game mechanic and renaming the currently mislabeled confusion mechanic

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, AgentForest said:

That screenshot is from the up-to-date stats on the Tanker Taunt ability on Homecoming.

I guarantee it isn't. Why?

 

First? https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_melee.battle_axe.taunt&at=tanker

Second? I logged in the game and checked Taunt. And it says it has -100% range strength.

Third? I checked Mids. And you are showing a Scrapper's Confront.

[AgentForest]

But it does seem you're more interested in fighting than having a productive discussion of the game mechanics.  You've also clearly shown that there IS community tension regarding this issue that should be addressed, further proving my point that perhaps the Homecoming devs should look into a more long-term solution than "less loss is better than full loss."  I'd rather not spend the rest of my day off going in circles with someone who doesn't even know the mechanics of the game as they currently stand.

I was just dropping a suggestion for the devs.  Maybe it isn't a solution they use going forward, but hopefully it can help them at least come up with solutions themselves that address the community's mixed views on confusion.  If the fact that even mentioning these tensions is enough to garner such negative responses, then clearly something needs done.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, AgentForest said:

But it does seem you're more interested in fighting than having a productive discussion of the game mechanics.  You've also clearly shown that there IS community tension regarding this issue that should be addressed, further proving my point that perhaps the Homecoming devs should look into a more long-term solution than "less loss is better than full loss."  I'd rather not spend the rest of my day off going in circles with someone who doesn't even know the mechanics of the game as they currently stand.

I was just dropping a suggestion for the devs.  Maybe it isn't a solution they use going forward, but hopefully it can help them at least come up with solutions themselves that address the community's mixed views on confusion.  If the fact that even mentioning these tensions is enough to garner such negative responses, then clearly something needs done.

Our tension is from a statement you made that I disagreed with. Don't read more into it than that.

[AgentForest]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I guarantee it isn't. Why?

 

First? https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_melee.battle_axe.taunt&at=tanker

Second? I logged in the game and checked Taunt. And it says it has -100% range strength.

Third? I checked Mids. And you are showing a Scrapper's Confront.

It was literally Mids Reborn: Battle Axe: Taunt.  But perhaps they have adjusted since.  Changing to other sets in the Tanker secondary list is showing -100%.  In that case, my mistake, and I'll own that.

However, Taunt still has a target cap that limits the number of people affected, and not all effects activate immediately, as the animation on a move can delay effects.  For example, knockdown happens at the end of Ripper, not the start of its animation.  Likewise, if the enemy queues up a move before the Taunt range debuff is applied, then it will go off as if the range was never decreased to begin with.

To test this, I would suggest:
1. Try taunting one enemy alone at a distance, and continue to run from that single enemy, never letting them into melee range.
2. Keep refreshing the Taunt to see if at any point they do any ranged attacks despite being out of range.

If they still fire at range after the taunt has been refreshed constantly, never dropping off, this could mean that the current implementation on AI reduces what the AI thinks its range is rather than its actual range.  However, other range debuffs like Hurricane affect other players and enemies as expected.  This means either they programmed Taunt differently and still labeled it as a range debuff when it isn't (which should be fixed in the power description to clarify what it's really doing), or the effect simply isn't up as fast as enemies are alerted to your presence (they queue attacks before the -Range applies).  If they never fire after that first initial volley so long as you maintain distance, then the range debuff is likely just delayed.

 

---

That said, my main point about -Range is more about how it works with regards to Hurricane, as this is meant to be a support/control ability, not a taunt.  The way Hurricane works, the target's range is reduced by more than half.  This could make for a good way to debuff enemies that rely on supportive powers like buffs, debuffs, and control.  It would also require enemies looking to focus fire to get closer for other forms of communication, which still upholds my design goal of a silence aura.  It also wouldn't be the only debuff affecting those enemies.  It would be a small portion of what it does, but still have value.

[AgentForest]

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Our tension is from a statement you made that I disagreed with. Don't read more into it than that.

My statement is one that's been plaguing the game since launch.  If that disagreement still exists and can get people so heated, it still stands to show that devs should at some point at least consider addressing it.

[Rudra]

24 minutes ago, AgentForest said:

It was literally Mids Reborn: Battle Axe: Taunt.  But perhaps they have adjusted since.  Changing to other sets in the Tanker secondary list is showing -100%.  In that case, my mistake, and I'll own that.

However, Taunt still has a target cap that limits the number of people affected, and not all effects activate immediately, as the animation on a move can delay effects.  For example, knockdown happens at the end of Ripper, not the start of its animation.  Likewise, if the enemy queues up a move before the Taunt range debuff is applied, then it will go off as if the range was never decreased to begin with.

To test this, I would suggest:
1. Try taunting one enemy alone at a distance, and continue to run from that single enemy, never letting them into melee range.
2. Keep refreshing the Taunt to see if at any point they do any ranged attacks despite being out of range.

If they still fire at range after the taunt has been refreshed constantly, never dropping off, this could mean that the current implementation on AI reduces what the AI thinks its range is rather than its actual range.  However, other range debuffs like Hurricane affect other players and enemies as expected.  This means either they programmed Taunt differently and still labeled it as a range debuff when it isn't (which should be fixed in the power description to clarify what it's really doing), or the effect simply isn't up as fast as enemies are alerted to your presence (they queue attacks before the -Range applies).  If they never fire after that first initial volley so long as you maintain distance, then the range debuff is likely just delayed.

 

---

That said, my main point about -Range is more about how it works with regards to Hurricane, as this is meant to be a support/control ability, not a taunt.  The way Hurricane works, the target's range is reduced by more than half.  This could make for a good way to debuff enemies that rely on supportive powers like buffs, debuffs, and control.  It would also require enemies looking to focus fire to get closer for other forms of communication, which still upholds my design goal of a silence aura.  It also wouldn't be the only debuff affecting those enemies.  It would be a small portion of what it does, but still have value.

Animation time for Taunt? 1.67 seconds

Animation time before power effect? 0.667 seconds

Time before -range effect is applied from power effect? 0 seconds, so it is applied at the same 0.667 seconds as the 41 second aggro grabbing effect.

Frequency with which mobs with ranged attacks attack my Brute (or Tanker) when I taunt them? As quickly as they have powers they can use at range.

 

So when a Tanker taunts a target? The target can attack and then move. Or the target can move towards the Tanker, stop to attack, and then resume moving towards the Tanker until the full 20 seconds of effect is complete. Or the target can be in melee range, be taunted by the Tanker, and keep attacking with their melee attacks.

 

Once upon a time, Hurricane did in fact reduce the actual range of powers from enemies within its radius. Then melee characters pointed out that they could not fight their enemies while in the Hurricane, so all they could do was just stand there and die or run away. So that got changed. Now, if Hurricane does for some reason actually reduce the range of the powers themselves while used within it? I've never noticed since that was changed back on Live. The only things I see Hurricane doing? Is kneecapping the ability to hit the user, push the targets away, and draw them in closer. I have not noticed any reductions in range because that made it impossible for melees to fight. Even if it were only a -60% range. At 2.8 feet of range, a melee attack range of 7 feet reduced by 60%, would mean that my Scrapper, Stalker, Tanker, or Brute would not be able to hit that Tsoo Sorcerer while in the Hurricane. And I do hit them, with my melee attacks, from not next to their hit box, just in normal melee range. (Once I can overcome the -37.5% ToHit.)

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, AgentForest said:

But it does seem you're more interested in fighting than having a productive discussion of the game mechanics.  You've also clearly shown that there IS community tension regarding this issue that should be addressed, further proving my point that perhaps the Homecoming devs should look into a more long-term solution than "less loss is better than full loss."  I'd rather not spend the rest of my day off going in circles with someone who doesn't even know the mechanics of the game as they currently stand.

I was just dropping a suggestion for the devs.  Maybe it isn't a solution they use going forward, but hopefully it can help them at least come up with solutions themselves that address the community's mixed views on confusion.  If the fact that even mentioning these tensions is enough to garner such negative responses, then clearly something needs done.

 

Pot, kettle.  Accusing others of not understanding mechanics when you don't seem to understand how confusion powers and xp work?  Again, there is no "loss' over time as has been proven by tests conducted by several people.  Where is your evidence that in "normal" game play there is any loss?   

 

If people  are complaining about confusion powers 'losing' experience they need to be educated on how it works, not catered to and have powers changed due to their own misunderstanding.

 

Also nice circular argument in your last sentence.  You are getting such negative responses because your basic premise is incorrect.  

 

There doesn't need to be a 'solution' because there is no problem.

 

[SeraphimKensai]

Considering that CoH confusion has worked how it has for 20 years... I'm going to have to not support this suggestion.

 

That said I'm not opposed to some kinda chaos element being added to a potential new powerset down the road, but I'd leave existing confuse effects as is (with the exception of lowering mass confusion's recharge).

[AgentForest]

3 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Considering that CoH confusion has worked how it has for 20 years... I'm going to have to not support this suggestion.

 

That said I'm not opposed to some kinda chaos element being added to a potential new powerset down the road, but I'd leave existing confuse effects as is (with the exception of lowering mass confusion's recharge).

There are lots of things in CoH that existed for 20-some odd years that have been changed in Homecoming to better suit more modern design philosophies.  FF as a powerset existed since launch, and that saw a revamp.  Some of the +Max HP powers have been replaced with +Absorb powers (sometimes with a regen component).  Many of the ancillary pools just got huge redesigns.  Sniper attacks got a major overhaul.

The argument that "it's always been that way, don't change it" defeats the purpose of even having forums to discuss power balance and potential changes.

The confusion debate always has a small handful of people obsessed with how it works, and a large part of the community just not even playing the moves because they don't really care for them.  Mind Control is one of the least played controller sets for a reason.  You almost never see them.  The people who love them love them, but are few and far between.

Edited January 22 by AgentForest

[Riverdusk]

Fair enough point, but to change a fundamental game mechanic that has been around for 20 years means you better have a darn good reason to change it.  Helpfully supported by some objective data and strong community support that a change would be good/needed.

 

I'm not seeing evidence of any of that.    As I've said before and you've never addressed, your basic premise that it has to be changed because people don't like it because it 'costs xp' is flawed.

 

See below (link found on the bottom of the page on confusion on the Wiki): 

https://web.archive.org/web/20080112120043/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4402544

 

That was all the way back in 2005, which was about the last time I ever felt any "community tension" about the power.   Well, that and the occasional rare weird thread like this one that you had to bump and necro from 1.5 years ago.