New Archetype Idea

[Hex]

 I don't know why I'm posting this up - it's not like it'll get implemented or whatever. I just like the idea, so I'm going to tell you all my archetype idea, the archetype's unique ability, and then a few primary powersets (I won't go into the secondaries - you'll see why) and let everyone treat it as they may.
The archetype:

Squad Leader.

 It's similar to mastermind, in that it's a pet class. However, it is intended to be a "mastermind-lite", using less pets and generally having less summon powers.
 So how is it different?
 Masterminds have 3 "pet powers" in their primaries, each summoning  (at maximum) one minion less than the previous summon power - so you get 3 for the first, 2 for the second and 1 for the last summon power, for a total of 6 pets (not including anything the secondaries can do).
 Squad Leader only has 2 summon per power, and more over the summon powers are pretty similar, with the "second" minion summoned by each power having a quirk or loadout difference - so you end up with two minions out of the four that are the "standard", with the other two being a little more specialised in what they do.
 The mastermind archetype unique is Supremacy - it gives a passive %damage and tohit bonus to pets within raneg of the MM. Squad Leaders get Motivation. Motivation is similar to the Dominator unique skill Domination, in that it's a triggered ability to give that "extra oomph" when the Squad Leader calls for it. Let's say its a 30 second buff with a 200 second cooldown, boosting (as with the MM) tohit and damage percentages and rendering them immune to control effects such as stun, confuse etc for 10 seconds, breaking them free if they are under the effects.
 Squad Leaders are not quite as squishy as MM's, to offset the fact they have less minions "bodyguarding" if they choose to go that route. Here's the "numbers chart" that all archetypes have on creation:
Survivability:        5
Melee Damage:        3*
Ranged Damage:    7*
Crowd Control:        5
Support    :        5
Pets:            5
*While capable of having melee powers, the Squad Leader is usually behind their pets issuing orders, buffs, debuffs and damage powers, so naturally their ranged damage will be a little higher - both of these numbers are values are variable, mainly due to primary powerset diversity.
 As you can see, it's a more middle of the road "jack of all trades" group supporter/dps character rather than a solo machine the MM is known to be - yet still capable of doing so with work.
  So why am I not going into secondaries?
 My thinking for this archetype was along the lines of the Dominator class - in particular the secondary powersets they have access to.
 This is because with the mastermind, we already have an archetype that can "buff and heal" pretty well with their pseudo defender powers. The Dominator's secondaries are just asking to be re-used - and why shouldn't they be?! They're great versions to play, and different to the other classes adding variety to powersets you may already be getting tired of from playing an alt/main or whatever.
 So with all that out of the way, lets get stuck in to some primary sets (I won't talk percentages or numbers for them - the guys running development should have the final say in that - I'm just an idea guy, after all).

Ex-PD:

For whatever reason, your character is a former police officer and knows some other skilled officers that they can call on to get a job done. You rely on your squad and trusty specialist equipment to see the job through. (The best part is, this can all be done with in-game resources, as the skins, models, animations etcetera already exist!)
LVL 1. Stun gun. you taze a nearby single target for a few seconds
LVL 1. Call for Back-up. You call one of your buddies from the force (a police officer in riot gear). By default, the officer has a semi automatic pistol. At later levels, summons a second officer with  a riot shield, that offers a minor defensive bonus to nearby allies (a really small one - it's not like a copy of the Shield powerset!)
LVL 2. Baton. Hit an enemy in melee range with your baton.
LVL 6. Requisition Order. Upgrades your summoned Back-up with tazers. Your Riot shield back-up has a smoke grenade and a flashbang, while your submachine gunner's weapon is replaced with a semi-automatic shotgun (their attacks are replaced with a slug shot and a rarely used cone attack).
LVL 8. Tear gas. You throw a tear gas grenade at a targetted location. Enemies within the area of effect have -tohit and reduced movement speed.
LVL 12. Call Veterans. (The name is just flavour to differentiate it from the earlier summon power. The first minion is identical to the first minion summoned by Call for Back-up). At later levels, the second summoned Veteran has a sub machine gun.
LVL 18. Put them down. Fires a series of shots from your sidearm at a single target.
LVL 26. Tracer rounds. Does a little damage, but marks an opponent for a few seconds so allied attacks against the target get a minor accuracy bonus.
LVL 32. Tactical gear. Upgrades all summoned minions with their best weapons. Side arms are all replaced with sub machine guns. The second Back-up unit gets to use a shield bash. The second Veteran still gets their shotgun, but can also flashbang and smoke grenade.

 

Alien Raider:

You came to this planet as part of a conquering force, or are you a stranded scout from another world? Whatever the reason, these monkeys are hindering your progress!
LVL 1.Ray gun. Fires a laser bolt from your energy-based sidearm. (Finally a reason to use those Sci-fi pistol skins!)
LVL 1. Call Trooper. Summons an alien Trooper with an energy sidearm. At later levels, summons a Trooper with Tracker drone. The Tracker drone provides a minor bonus to hit with ranged attacks to allies nearby (a really small bonus!) and increases their stealth detection value.
LVL 2. Flashbeam. Fires a short range cone of energy that deals very little damage, but disorients any enemy caught in it.
LVL 6. Upgrade powercells. Increases the power out put on the summoned minions powersuits. Summoned Troopers all get a "haymaker" melee attack, that can send weaker enemies up in the air (its a knock-up attack for moderate damage). The second Trooper summoned by Call Trooper can use a Flashbeam attack. The second Combatant replaces their energy rifle with a plasma thrower (it's basically a flamethrower with a palette swap).
LVL 8. Rapidfire. Fires a series of bolts from your energy pistol at a single target.
LVL 12. Call Combatant. (Again, the name is for flavour to differentiate the powers). Summons an alien Trooper. At later levels, the second summoned Combatant has an energy rifle.
LVL 18. Deathray. You fire a concentrated beam of sheer destructive power from your energy pistol. It does alot of damage, debuffs a target's energy resistance for a few seconds, and disorients and knocksdown weaker enemies.
LVL 26: Advanced powersuits. Summoned Troopers now have personal forcefields that increase their ranged and aoe defense.
LVL 32. Holographic Decoys. Summons three identical copies of yourself for 10 seconds. These copies taunt nearby enemies, but do no damage and are unkillable. They seem to make pistol shots similar to the powers listed above, and move around in random directions, but that's all.

 

SWAT team:

You were/are a member of an elite SWAT team, sent out to bring justice to the lawbreakers (or to get your own justice for being underpaid and under appreciated).
LVL 1. Snap shot. You make an attack at range with your rifle.
LVL 1. Call Officer. You call a fellow Officer to help you out. They have pump action shotguns. The 2nd summoned Officer has a sub machine gun.
LVL 2. Breach and Clear. Instruct a targetted Officer to throw a flashbang at their nearest enemy and attempt to bring them down with gun fire. Other enemies near the target will also be disoriented/blinded. The next attack the Officer makes with their shotgun will be a cone attack with a high chance of knockdown.
LVL 6. Specialised training. Officers replace their pump action shotguns with assault rifles (the 2nd Officers sub machine gun gets replaced with it too). Officers can now use "Bean bag round" that causes disorientation/knockdown. The 2nd officer can use Aimed shot (as per the AR primary - but for less damage).
LVL 8. Focus fire. Instructs all Officers to attack the Squad Leader's target (provided they are able to). Officers doing so get a bonus tohit chance, with a chance to crit for 5 seconds.
LVL 12. Call Marksmen. (Again, a flavour name - their stats are identical to the one summoned by Call Officers). At later levels, the 2nd Marksman has an assault rifle.
LVL 18. Take the Shot. The nearest Marksman/Officer to you takes careful aim at your selected target. If it's the 2nd Marksman, it will be a Sniper shot. The shot has a high chance to critically hit.
LVL 26. Superior Equipment. Replaces all Marksman and Officer weapons with assault rifles. All Marksmen and Officer can use their underslung grenade launchers to fire frag grenades. The second summoned Officer can also fire an incendiary grenade. The second Marksman's weapon is replaced with a high powered sniper rifle that has a base chance to crit.
LVL 32. Snipe. You fire a high powered sniper shot from your rifle.

 

Wizard:

 You and your apprentices love to waggle your wands at people, causing all kinds of magical mayhem!
LVL 1. Levitate. Briefly lifts an opponent off the ground. They can still attack their opponents if they are within range, but cannot move.
LVL 1. Summon Acolyte. Summons one of your students to help. They know a ranged attack incantation (it'll vary each time they use it in terms of damage type). The second summoned Acolyte will know a random support spell from either Heal Other, Siphon Power, Thermal Shield or Time Crawl.
LVL 2. Metamorph. Briefly metamorphs a targetted enemy into a random small critter (like a rat, cat or rabbit). If the target can't be metamorphed (like they're a boss or AV or something), they'll suffer an attack speed and mvoement for a few seconds instead.
LVL 6. Advanced Arcana. All Acolytes can now cast a random, more damaging spell in addition to the ones they already know from the following list: Lightning Bolt, Gloom, Power Burst or Freeze Ray. The 2nd summoned Acolyte can cast Wild Growth, Siphon Speed or Fearsome Stare.
LVL 8. Propel. As per the Gravity Control powerset (its the "kitchen sink" attack)
LVL 12. Summon Initiate. (Flavour name, blah blah!) The second summoned Initiate can cast a random damage spell from the following list: Frost Breath, Power Push (knockdown instead of knockback), Tenebrous Tentacles.
LVL 18. Expert Arcana. Summoned Acolytes can now cast aoe spells from the following listL Fireball, Blizzard, Ball Lightning. The 2nd summoned Acolyte can now cast Time Stop, Forge AND Tar Patch in addition to their other spells. The 2nd summoned Initiate can now cast Moonbeam, Steam Spray, AND Psionic Tornado.
LVL 26. Tornado. As per the Storm Summoning power.
LVL 32. Chaos Field. Summons SIX random "things" at the targetted location - any summoned NPC is considered hostile to your enemies, and allied to your allies. They do not respond to any given orders and act as they see fit. List of "things": 1-6 basic "enemies" (skulls, hellions, clockwork, Lost - the points is they're the "bottom end" of the enemies list - the grunts you usually massacre by the dozen), a Fireball/Ball Lightning (as per the spell - it just detonates there), an Ice Patch (for falling down shenanigans), a Tornado (as per the Storm Summoning power), 1 - 3 demons (as per the mastermind power Summon Demons), an Oni (as per ther Mastermind power) a pool of Radiation (as per the power Irradiate in the Radiation Blast powerset), Lifegiving Spores (as per the Nature Affinity power). The "things" last no longer than 15 seconds, before magically returning to their place of origin.

 

 I had other ideas too like Warrior Monks, Clockwork (the praetorian ones, though the others would probably work too), Sentai Team (so you too can be the cool red one before he disputes his wages and loses his spot to the new guy in green), Bandits, Druids but the post is probably already too long 🙂

Edited April 14, 2023 by Hex
typo and an error concerning MM pets.

[biostem]

Since there are less minions, would they individually be tougher or do more damage than their MM equivalents?  The sample sets don't seem to have the tools to keep the minions alive.  If you're going to use assault sets as the secondary, why not remove the attacks from the proposed primaries and put thematic support and control abilities in their place?

 

EDIT:  Maybe someone could trigger a level 50-ish ambush in AP and let the OP fight them off...

Edited April 14, 2023 by biostem

[Hex]

They're about the equivalent to the "tier 2" MM pets (Spec Ops if you're running Mercs). They don't actually require much to keep alive compared to the "tier 1" pets, and I've always found that just running a couple of handy ancillary powers (notably Leadership) is just enough.

 

That said, this is just an idea for an archetype so it's bound to have flaws or be changed anyway - plus we have to get them dev's making things other than more Blaster primaries somehow.

 

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Hex said:

plus we have to get them dev's making things other than more Blaster primaries somehow

Like Symphony Control?  Electrical Affinity?  Illusion for Dominators?  Earth Manipulation?  There's a bunch if you just look.

 

4 minutes ago, Hex said:

They don't actually require much to keep alive compared to the "tier 1" pets, and I've always found that just running a couple of handy ancillary powers (notably Leadership) is just enough.

Then you and I have vastly different experiences with Masterminds, or play content at much different difficulty levels.

 

5 minutes ago, Hex said:

That said, this is just an idea for an archetype so it's bound to have flaws or be changed anyway

You're of course free to post almost anything on these forums, but if you post something then aren't willing to really flesh it out, don't be surprised if others point out the shortcomings in your suggestions...

[FupDup]

Honestly I think that the idea of "fewer but stronger pets" could just be a different MM primary instead of a whole new AT. 

[biostem]

Just now, FupDup said:

Honestly I think that the idea of "fewer but stronger pets" could just be a different MM primary instead of a whole new AT. 

Some sets, namely Thugs and the updated Necromancy, kind of go the opposite direction, so I see no reason why not.  I wonder how difficult it would be to omit the 3rd pet power, and instead add another upgrade power that further bolsters the tier 1 & 2 pets...

[Hex]

5 hours ago, biostem said:

Since there are less minions, would they individually be tougher or do more damage than their MM equivalents?  The sample sets don't seem to have the tools to keep the minions alive.  If you're going to use assault sets as the secondary, why not remove the attacks from the proposed primaries and put thematic support and control abilities in their place?

 

EDIT:  Maybe someone could trigger a level 50-ish ambush in AP and let the OP fight them off...

Well someone clearly didn't get out of bed on the right side today.

Right from the outset, you've been in attack mode for some unknown reason.

According to the rules of this forum, it's okay for people to post idea.

That's what this is: an idea: a thought or suggestion as to a possible course of action.

Not a meta discussion.

Not a debate over damage numbers, which is the best tactic for HAMI, or even what the best damage type is.

IT'S AN IDEA.

Not every archetype was made to solo raid bosses or do 8x fire farms with AV's.

If you bothered to read what I posted rather than skim read, you'd KNOW I was posting an IDEA not a complete perfectly balanced, ready to roll fact that should be implemented right this second.

Yes, I've played MM's. Probably a little too much. I particularly like trying to keep ninja henchman alive.

 

 

  4 hours ago, Hex said:

plus we have to get them dev's making things other than more Blaster primaries somehow

"Like Symphony Control?  Electrical Affinity?  Illusion for Dominators?  Earth Manipulation?  There's a bunch if you just look."

 

It was a joke. Clearly you need this pointed out too. 

 

"You're of course free to post almost anything on these forums, but if you post something then aren't willing to really flesh it out, don't be surprised if others point out the shortcomings in your suggestions..."

 

Nothing you've posted here has been a thoughtful response - just a knee-jerk criticism.

As I said earlier - you're in attack mode for no reason.

You didn't consider the idea of a new archetype, you just began picking things you considered to be a flaw in the design rather than "hey that's a neat idea" and then getting even more passive aggressive when I responded off the cuff with a joke. I mentioned in the original post that I wasn't going to talk numbers, because doing so is pointless when that's the developer's call to make - they have far more useful tools at their disposal when crafting and testing new archetypes, powers etcetera than people's experience playing.

I had other primary powerset ideas for this archetype too - do you know what they were?! No?!

Shocking. Did it occur to you that these are the more ranged damage oriented sets, and that MAYBE the other sets were more utility, but I was concerned that the post was already too long?!

No?!

What a surprise.

The fact is I did flesh the IDEA out: I themed it, gave some powerset ideas, even a list of at what level powers become available which is far more effort than a random idea needs in an attempt to peak the dev's interest and promote some kind of easily implemented (relatively speaking) extra content into this great game.

But for some reason you want me to do the express thing I said I wasn't going to do, which is to give out numbers.

What, you want me to say what enhancements should be slottable in each power too?!

 

For some reason you're here to argue.

I'm here to post up an idea I thought was neat.

I won't be responding to you in the future. You're not worth the effort.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Hex said:

Well someone clearly didn't get out of bed on the right side today.

Ad-hom.  Address my points and don't tone-police me.

 

2 minutes ago, Hex said:

Right from the outset, you've been in attack mode for some unknown reason.

Not at all.  I'm just critiquing your OP, which lacks clarity and detail.

 

3 minutes ago, Hex said:

That's what this is: an idea: a thought or suggestion as to a possible course of action.

And I never objected to you posting here.  i only objected to obvious holes and lack of forethought in your suggestion.

 

3 minutes ago, Hex said:

Not every archetype was made to solo raid bosses or do 8x fire farms with AV's.

No, but they were made to be functional across a wide range of enemy types and difficulty levels.  You seem to think MMs can function pretty much with just leadership toggles, which they clearly cannot.

 

4 minutes ago, Hex said:

It was a joke. Clearly you need this pointed out too. 

Nothing in your OP hinted at this at all.  Funny how quickly you reverse course once your ignorance is turned around on you.

 

5 minutes ago, Hex said:

Nothing you've posted here has been a thoughtful response - just a knee-jerk criticism.

Your opinion.

 

6 minutes ago, Hex said:

You didn't consider the idea of a new archetype

Oh I've posted about new ATs and responded to other people's posts plenty of times.  The difference here is that your is not well thought out and lacks critical considerations with regard to how the game actually works.  Don't blame the messenger when the flaws in your ideas are pointed out.

 

8 minutes ago, Hex said:

For some reason you're here to argue.

I'm here to post up an idea I thought was neat.

I won't be responding to you in the future. You're not worth the effort.

No, just here to provide feedback.  If you don't want feedback, don't post.  You can write all your ideas in notepad, where no one will ever scrutinize them and you'll never get criticism.  "I thought [it] was neat" isn't enough - it has to be functional and fit within the existing framework of the game.  Ignore me if you like, it won't change the fact that you don't seem to be able to take criticism.  Besides one other responder, I'm literally the only person that even gave your idea the time of day...

[Rudra]

The problem with the proposed AT as it currently stands is the AT has no support for the pets. Controllers and Dominators have control options, lots of them. And they only have a single pet at higher levels to keep alive. Masterminds have support options for their pets, plus some control options thrown in. The proposed AT is pets and attacks. The Assault sets you want to make the AT's secondaries are a mix of ranged and melee attacks, no real support or control. Your proposed primary power sets have scant few control options and no support options.

 

So that means the proposed AT will have the same problems the Mastermind has with keeping pets alive in a difficult situation, but none of the support to help deal with it. No heals. No toggle buffs/debuffs. Not even any solid mezzes like a Controller or Dominator.

 

And as an avid MM player, keeping even the tier 3 pet alive can be a challenge depending on the enemies and map. And that is after having Maneuvers, Shadow Fall, ninja inherent defense, Train Ninjas 4-slotted with defense enhancements to improve their defense, and every pet proc' available in the game to keep them alive. Yes, I can solo some seriously difficult foes with ease, but any enemy that uses lots of AoEs, especially if they hit hard or have debuffs to augment their AoEs, drops all my pets in a hurry. Or any large groups of enemies will leave me spending more time summoning replacements, even the tier 3 pet, as they group annihilate my pets. Difficult fights happen for every AT. And your AT lacks the means of dealing with such difficult fights.

 

Edit: Basically, it boils down this is a pet class AT, but how do you keep your pets alive and fighting when things start to look bad?

Edited April 15, 2023 by Rudra

[Marbing]

Oh hey its @Hex, welcome to the forums!
 

I don't dislike the idea, I have had a similar one in the past. Another AT that is similar but different than an MM would be cool to play around with. Like a Commander who is individually stronger than an MM but the pets are weaker than an MM's pets in some way, or there are less of them, balancing it out. On the surface it isn't a bad idea.

I will say this, though, I don't see anything wrong with @biostem critiques on the matter. They are valid points to take into consideration while fleshing out your idea.

[malonkey1]

Yeah conceptually it's not a bad, and I like the idea of a Mastermind counterpart that's a little more actively participating in combat, with an Archetype inherent to match. It also seems that making a pet class that has Assault secondaries is a popular idea, as I had the same idea for the Synergist.

 

Personally, though, I think it might be more interesting to do away with the traditional "pet and upgrade" paradigm that the Mastermind uses. Instead of needing to buy explicit upgrade powers to enhance your pets, it might be neat if your pets' powers grew organically as you picked primary and secondary powers, passively enhancing and modifying them based on which powers you pick.

 

So hypothetically if you're a Wizards/Ice Squad Leader, then your Acolytes and Initiates would get more spells as you take more powers from the Wizards powerset, but they would also receive Ice-based powers as you take more Ice Assault powers.