Invisible Jetpack?

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, kidsnowflake said:

6 minutes ago, ClawsandEffect said:

I have a relevant question that hasn't been asked yet: 

 

Why are you so dead set against taking Fly or Mystic Flight when you have acknowledged several times in this thread that they are better than the temp power? 🤔 

 

I would think if you wanted your character to be able to fly under their own power, a version that you can actually slot and get set bonuses from would be the ideal solution? 

 

Is it because you want to buy your way out of having to use a power pool choice on it to better min/max your character? 

 

Please explain why you would prefer to have an inferior flight power (that you yourself pointed out) over one that can be slotted to make your character better. 

 

If I want a character to be a flyer, I take both Fly and Hover so I can slot a LotG in Hover and 2 BotZ in Fly (for ranged defense). That would make your character objectively better than a temp power AND have the appearance you want. But you don't want to do that. I'm curious as to why. 

Expand  

 

15 minutes ago, kidsnowflake said:

My characters that fly as part of their powerset choose the pools. My characters that occasionally need vertical movement to get around Faultline or reach a flying enemy take the temps. The only thing an invisible jetpack would change is I wouldn't cringe when I looked at my feral demon wearing a skyraider pack.

 

THERE's the quote I was trying for!!!

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, kidsnowflake said:

 

If we're really going to get this petty go check the timestamps of the edit.

Okay. I missed that. I apologize.

[Random Robot]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Okay. I missed that. I apologize.

 

Accepted. I apologise for being snarky earlier. It's not an excuse but it's way past my bedtime. 🙂 

Edited May 25, 2023 by kidsnowflake

[Rudra]

As for your feral demon, I'd say just take Void Skiff. The demon can still focus power below himself/herself/themselves/itself. Then just turn it off when you get to where you want to go.

[Random Robot]

Just now, Rudra said:

As for your feral demon, I'd say just take Void Skiff. The demon can still focus power below himself/herself/themselves/itself. Then just turn it off when you get to where you want to go.

 

It's an option for Faultline but not for reaching that flying enemy.

 

I've been overly confrontational in this thread, but I genuinely don't understand why having a temp flight power that looks like a jetpack is fine but having the same power that looks like something else isn't.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, kidsnowflake said:

 

It's an option for Faultline but not for reaching that flying enemy.

 

I've been overly confrontational in this thread, but I genuinely don't understand why having a temp flight power that looks like a jetpack is fine but having the same power that looks like something else isn't.

Then take Super Jump. Any enemy that flies beyond Super Jump's reach is just running away. Let them run and finish them later.

 

Edit: And yes, I've fought fliers with non-fliers this way. On numerous occasions. Though normally I'm only using Combat Jumping instead of Super Jump to deal with them.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Rudra

[Random Robot]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Then take Super Jump. Any enemy that flies beyond Super Jump's reach is just running away. Let them run and finish them later.

 

If I was going to take a power pool I'd take Fly or Mystic Flight.

 

As I've said I don't need mechanical solutions, for characters that don't have flight as part of their build I use the temp flight powers from the P2W vendor for the few instances when the game needs me to fly. There are 6 visual choices for those powers, and I'd like another one.

Edited May 25, 2023 by kidsnowflake

[biostem]

There are already magical themed items for sale in the P2W vendor, so I see no reason why a magical alternative to the jetpack couldn't be added, dev time permitting...

[ClawsandEffect]

So let me see if I have this right. 

 

The visual of a jetpack that you'll be using for a few seconds at a time bothers you MORE than the fact that your character (that you have canonically decided through your build choices cannot fly on his own) is suddenly hovering in the air beating on something? 

 

Because, as someone else who builds for theme first, if I built a character who couldn't fly naturally and they were in the air without some sort of visual aid, that would bother me more than the jetpack. Regardless of their origin. 

[Random Robot]

Just now, ClawsandEffect said:

So let me see if I have this right. 

 

The visual of a jetpack that you'll be using for a few seconds at a time bothers you MORE than the fact that your character (that you have canonically decided through your build choices cannot fly on his own) is suddenly hovering in the air beating on something? 

 

Yes. Is that a problem?

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, kidsnowflake said:

7 minutes ago, ClawsandEffect said:

So let me see if I have this right. 

 

The visual of a jetpack that you'll be using for a few seconds at a time bothers you MORE than the fact that your character (that you have canonically decided through your build choices cannot fly on his own) is suddenly hovering in the air beating on something? 

 

Yes. Is that a problem?

If you are fine with a non-flying character just arbitrarily flying and beating the crap out of targets but are not fine with a non-flying character using an external means of flying to beat the crap out of a target, that's you. It makes absolutely no sense, but that's your choice. I'm still against a no jetpack version of jetpack though.

[Rigged]

Actually, while the fly/mystic flight/void skiff/carpet options have already been discussed, it would be nice to have more options for the purchased jetpack, just for variety and theme.

 

This feels like a low-priority, high-effort change though, since it would require new art assets. For now, using the tech-themed jetpacks is perfectly fine but it seems like a possible consideration if HC ever gets more volunteer 3D modelers. 

[Random Robot]

Just now, Rigged said:

This feels like a low-priority, high-effort change though, since it would require new art assets. For now, using the tech-themed jetpacks is perfectly fine but it seems like a possible consideration if HC ever gets more volunteer 3D modelers. 

 

Actually the beauty of an invisible jetpack is it doesn't require any new art assets.

[Rudra]

Just now, Rigged said:

Actually, while the fly/mystic flight/void skiff/carpet options have already been discussed, it would be nice to have more options for the purchased jetpack, just for variety and theme.

 

This feels like a low-priority, high-effort change though, since it would require new art assets. For now, using the tech-themed jetpacks is perfectly fine but it seems like a possible consideration if HC ever gets more volunteer 3D modelers. 

Agreed. I doubt anyone would complain about more versions of jetpacks being available. (It's the no jetpack version of jetpack that those of us arguing against are against.)

[Random Robot]

Just now, Rudra said:

(It's the no jetpack version of jetpack that those of us arguing against are against.)

 

I genuinely do not understand this argument. What makes a flight power with no FX worse than one with FX?

[Rudra]

Just now, kidsnowflake said:

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

(It's the no jetpack version of jetpack that those of us arguing against are against.)

 

I genuinely do not understand this argument. What makes a flight power with no FX worse than one with FX?

The fact that no visual FX flight powers already exist and are readily available for use.

[Random Robot]

Just now, Rudra said:

The fact that no visual FX flight powers already exist and are readily available for use.

 

Except as stated they are power pool choices and as such fill a different need than temporary flight powers.

[Rudra]

They exist, are available as early as level 4, and take a single power choice with no prerequisites to get. Using your feral demon as an example, if he/she/them/it can float in mid-air and wail on a flying target and chase it through the air as needed to wail on it and it isn't using some sort of external device to do so, then it can fly. It isn't using a jetpack, it is using an inherent ability to fly. You chose to not give the demon a fly power, so that leaves it using an external means of flight, in this case, a jetpack.

 

Edit: And since said feral demon can presumably complete any missions given in the game, then said demon is obviously smart enough to strap on a jetpack and go. Because other tasks in the game that our characters do automatically are decidedly more complex.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Rudra

[Random Robot]

HC have recently added cosmetic costume powers that replicate the FX of powers like Earth Armor, Fire Armor and so on. Should those not exist because you can just roll a character with the relevant power set? Flight Pools and Temp Flight are two different things, the fact that the visuals exist for one doesn't preclude the visuals existing for the other.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, kidsnowflake said:

HC have recently added cosmetic costume powers that replicate the FX of powers like Earth Armor, Fire Armor and so on. Should those not exist because you can just roll a character with the relevant power set? Flight Pools and Temp Flight are two different things, the fact that the visuals exist for one doesn't preclude the visuals existing for the other.

Your request is about taking away a visual FX. So comparing the ability to add a visual FX is not the same thing.

[Random Robot]

Just now, Rudra said:

Your request is about taking away a visual FX. So comparing the ability to add a visual FX is not the same thing.

 

Both are "visual options" that contribute to how your character looks. They're the same thing. Let me ask you: What is the negative consequence of me using a temp flight power with no FX vs me using one with FX?

[Rudra]

If you want your non-flier character to fly without using Fly or Mystic Flight for being a non-flier, then use a jetpack, Void Skiff, Rocketboard, or Flying Carpet. If you want your character to fly without a visual external device to provide that flight, then take Fly or Mystic Flight.

 

I'm tired of arguing in circles. I'm very much against a no jetpack version of jetpack. I hope the devs agree and decide to not bother making one.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add italics.

[Random Robot]

So your argument is essentially "your visual taste is wrong."

 

To clarify, I realise this isn't your argument. You feel I should be penalized for using a temporary power rather than spending a power pick on flight by not being able to choose the visuals that flight uses. However there are already 6 choices for the visuals so that argument doesn't really hold up.

 

edit: Despite us fundamentally disagreeing I do apologize for being unpleasant in this thread. I let the argument get the better of me and that was uncalled for. This apology is aimed at Rudra and anybody else in the thread I treated unfairly. (Looking at you ClawsandEffect.)

Edited May 25, 2023 by kidsnowflake

[ClawsandEffect]

Thanks for owning up to it and apologizing for letting get the better of you. Happens to all of us on occasion. 

 

My argument against it actually has nothing to do with the visuals. Well, it sorta does, but that's a secondary concern. 

 

My argument against it is based in the fact that a temp power that exactly duplicates a power pick in appearance is a way of sidestepping choosing that power. 

 

That matters because a power pick, which you get a finite number of, is considerably more valuable than influence spent on a temp power, which is effectively limitless. 

 

If you get your way and the devs create this, what's to stop people from asking for a snipe power for their scrapper or stalker so they can take Body Mastery as their Ancillary for the extra recovery and just buy the snipe that is basically the only reason anyone takes any other epic pool for those ATs? I realize you cannot slot temp powers, but they are affected by damage buffs from other sources. 

 

It just opens a can of worms that can (and if my experience on both this and the old forum is any indication) will lead to people asking for ways to spend influence on avoiding having to take certain pools to get a single power they want. 

 

And they will point to this right here as their example of why they should get it, regardless of whether that is the reason you want this or not. You might be purely concerned about the visuals. Other people will look for ways to game the system with their own requests. 

[Random Robot]

8 minutes ago, ClawsandEffect said:

Thanks for owning up to it and apologizing for letting get the better of you. Happens to all of us on occasion. 

 

My argument against it actually has nothing to do with the visuals. Well, it sorta does, but that's a secondary concern. 

 

My argument against it is based in the fact that a temp power that exactly duplicates a power pick in appearance is a way of sidestepping choosing that power. 

 

That matters because a power pick, which you get a finite number of, is considerably more valuable than influence spent on a temp power, which is effectively limitless. 

 

If you get your way and the devs create this, what's to stop people from asking for a snipe power for their scrapper or stalker so they can take Body Mastery as their Ancillary for the extra recovery and just buy the snipe that is basically the only reason anyone takes any other epic pool for those ATs? I realize you cannot slot temp powers, but they are affected by damage buffs from other sources. 

 

It just opens a can of worms that can (and if my experience on both this and the old forum is any indication) will lead to people asking for ways to spend influence on avoiding having to take certain pools to get a single power they want. 

 

And they will point to this right here as their example of why they should get it, regardless of whether that is the reason you want this or not. You might be purely concerned about the visuals. Other people will look for ways to game the system with their own requests. 

 

Sands of Mu exactly duplicates the appearance of Shadow Maul. Plasmatic Taser duplicates Energy Torrent. Power Analyzer duplicates Surveillance. At least half of the temps from the P2W vendor use the same visuals as something available from a power pool. Nobody is picking these over the real thing in an effort to min-max because temps simply aren't as good as pool powers. If they were to add the planned Gadgets pool with its Jetpack flight power would people skip it in favour of the existing temps? No.

 

No min-maxer is seriously considering swapping out one of their ranged attacks for a Blackwand just because it's also a ranged power. Not to mention, if people were -that- determined to min-max would they really care -what- the temp power looks like?

 

If the slope were that slippery people would already be sliding.