What pairs better RAD/SS or RAD/EM

[Owenknowone]

Thoughts?  I have two tankers going and trying to sort things out which direction I want to move forward with.  Anyone have experience with these combos?  Pro/Cons?

[Spaghetti Betty]

Both will be very strong combinations into the high levels, but they each have their own quirks that lend themselves into vastly different playstyles.

 

Rad/SS is more inclined to an all-round offensive approach. While getting off to a very slow start, what makes SS a strong choice is actually dipping into other pools for offensive options, as Rage's massive +DMG and +Tohit bolsters them to levels higher than a majority of SS's actual attacks (Jab, Punch, and to a lesser extent Haymaker all have lower base dmg to account for Rage and Hurl is just not great). Rage's crash makes it difficult to build defensively, and you'll have to eye your blue bar, but Rad Armor is self-sustainable enough to keep you pretty safe at all levels of content while having a damage potential that would make some Scrappers jealous.

 

As a Rad/EM progresses, it'll definitely have a smoother experience than a Rad/SS. No defense crash to worry about. Doesn't really require any tricks to build effectively. EM will also end up having superior single target damage compared to SS, and doesn't need to dip into other pools to achieve that. It'll have less AoE punch (YMMV, some players swear by Power Crash), but the trade in ST damage is worth it. If you want a Tank you can build defensively without sacrificing a lot of damage, this is probably the way to go.

[Zect]

If we mean endgame IO builds, SS. No contest. It is overpowered by every objective measure and the only reason it has escaped nerfs is because it is an issue zero set that people have lived with forever and any attempt to balance it results in loud and incessant whines.

 

SS is a top 3 powerset (the exact ranking depends on build design & goals, and target content).

 

14 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

what makes SS a strong choice is actually dipping into other pools for offensive options

 

What makes SS a strong choice:

• Powerful soft and hard control in every attack (KD, KU, hold)
• Powerful high DPA attacks (KOB, footstomp)
• Powerful constant tohit buff (Rage) that enables procbombing attacks and slot-efficiency gains (for example, needing less/no acc in heals such as dark regen)
• Powerful constant damage buff (Rage). A doublestacked rage tanker is almost at the damage cap. Ever fancied being your own kin?
• Powerful proc opportunities (all attacks accept KB sets, KOB accepts hold sets)
• Powerful, abnormally high radius on pbaoe attack (15ft vs 8ft)
• Few attacks needed (=more power choices available for mules and epic attacks)

Its only real weaknesses are that 1) it gets its one aoe very late, but ever since the change to power order late last year, this has been much less of an issue and 2) it is an endurance-hungry set - it is actually one of the few 2ndaries that can spend all the endurance from ageless destiny.

 

15 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Jab, Punch, and to a lesser extent Haymaker all have lower base dmg to account for Rage

 

Punch and Haymaker have lower base DPA, but KOB and Footstomp have higher base DPA. Jab and comparisons of tanker T1's are irrelevant now that you can pick the T2 at level 1.

 

SS base DPA:

• Punch: 36.38
• Haymaker: 50.49
• KOB: 79.16
• Foot stomp: 33.43 (15ft)

EM base DPA:

• Energy punch: 58.03
• Bonesmasher: 59.67
• TF: 67.85
• Whirling hands: 23.65 (8ft)

When viewed as a whole, SS is not clearly inferior to most other sets even before factoring in rage. The only real dud is Punch. Typical DPA for a tanker T2 attack is 50-60.

 

The statement that SS has weaker attacks (without qualification) is fanfiction invented to excuse continued avoidance of rage nerfs.

 

15 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

and Hurl is just not great

 

Hurl is poor dps-wise, but gives SS access to ranged damage sets such as winter's bite and apoc without needing to tap into an epic or pool power, which is useful in rare situations. As a tanker 2ndary power it also gives another option to place your ATIO's. Hurl for example can mule 3x gauntleted fist 3x winter's bite for 6% ENFC res and 15% slow res and do it all in 1 mule where normally 2 would be needed, saving a power choice.

 

Niche != not great. Not every power has to be useful to every build. Furthermore, set-muling is an important component of a powerset's capabilities and must be fully taken into account.

 

15 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Rage's crash makes it difficult to build defensively, and you'll have to eye your blue bar

 

You already concede that this is irrelevant, but I just want to emphasise this is not much of an issue. Rad's primary mitigation is res, not def, and it is one of the sets with the highest eps.

 

15 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

If you want a Tank you can build defensively without sacrificing a lot of damage [referring to EM], this is probably the way to go.

 

Lol.

[Spaghetti Betty]

8 hours ago, Zect said:

What makes SS a strong choice:

• Powerful soft and hard control in every attack (KD, KU, hold)
• Powerful high DPA attacks (KOB, footstomp)
• Powerful constant tohit buff (Rage) that enables procbombing attacks and slot-efficiency gains (for example, needing less/no acc in heals such as dark regen)
• Powerful constant damage buff (Rage). A doublestacked rage tanker is almost at the damage cap. Ever fancied being your own kin?
• Powerful proc opportunities (all attacks accept KB sets, KOB accepts hold sets)
• Powerful, abnormally high radius on pbaoe attack (15ft vs 8ft)
• Few attacks needed (=more power choices available for mules and epic attacks)

Its only real weaknesses are that 1) it gets its one aoe very late, but ever since the change to power order late last year, this has been much less of an issue and 2) it is an endurance-hungry set - it is actually one of the few 2ndaries that can spend all the endurance from ageless destiny.

 

 

Punch and Haymaker have lower base DPA, but KOB and Footstomp have higher base DPA. Jab and comparisons of tanker T1's are irrelevant now that you can pick the T2 at level 1.

 

SS base DPA:

• Punch: 36.38
• Haymaker: 50.49
• KOB: 79.16
• Foot stomp: 33.43 (15ft)

EM base DPA:

• Energy punch: 58.03
• Bonesmasher: 59.67
• TF: 67.85
• Whirling hands: 23.65 (8ft)

When viewed as a whole, SS is not clearly inferior to most other sets even before factoring in rage. The only real dud is Punch. Typical DPA for a tanker T2 attack is 50-60.

 

Thanks for typing all of this out! I didn't feel like doing it.

 

Also, EM still pulls ahead in lategame ST damage even after all the overpowered nonsense that is an IO'd /SS Tank.

 

8 hours ago, Zect said:

Hurl is poor dps-wise, but gives SS access to ranged damage sets such as winter's bite and apoc without needing to tap into an epic or pool power, which is useful in rare situations. As a tanker 2ndary power it also gives another option to place your ATIO's. Hurl for example can mule 3x gauntleted fist 3x winter's bite for 6% ENFC res and 15% slow res and do it all in 1 mule where normally 2 would be needed, saving a power choice.

 

Niche != not great. Not every power has to be useful to every build. Furthermore, set-muling is an important component of a powerset's capabilities and must be fully taken into account.

 

Good points, but I still stand by Hurl being not great. An SS will already have to take Jab/Punch which can mule ATOs. All of the other slottings you suggested can replicated on much more powerful Epic blasts, which any /SS Tanker worth their salt should be dipping into regardless.

 

8 hours ago, Zect said:

23 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

If you want a Tank you can build defensively without sacrificing a lot of damage [referring to EM], this is probably the way to go.

 

Lol.

 

This is not a false statement! You and I both know Rad/ doesn't need DEF, but some inexperienced players may see not being able to build it as a detriment. That would attribute to Rad/EM being a subjectively smoother ride.

[Owenknowone]

I understand the need or in this case with rad to step away from def.  It is my understanding a little defense never hurts.

 

Also, can anyone expand on the other pools idea?  Are we talking hasten or fighting?

[Captain Fabulous]

SS is superior to EM. That's all you really need to know.

[Spaghetti Betty]

30 minutes ago, Owenknowone said:

Also, can anyone expand on the other pools idea?  Are we talking hasten or fighting?

Since you don't need a lot of stuff from SS, grabbing attacks like Cross Punch*, Gloom, Dark Obliteration, etc. will inflate your DPS when backed by Rage. Even more so if you dump a ton of Dmg% procs into them!

 

*- Grabbing both Boxing and Kick is necessary due to Fighting Synergy