How to make seamless attack chains ... for dummies?

[EnjoyTheJourney]

After a fair while trying it's still not clear to me how to work out a seamless attack chain. Arcanatime doesn't seem to explain what I often see about how powers recharge and activate. Perhaps there's something about the UI that I'm missing so I don't realize when it's time to click an attack icon. I definitely don't have an easy time looking at cast time and recharge time in Mids and then predicting what DPS is likely to result. 

Perhaps somebody can explain to this slow learner (and others who read this thread who are probably quicker to figure things out than I am) the art and science of putting together a seamless attack chain without wasting slots or IOs to create a lot of overlap between when attack powers are available that in the end doesn't raise DPS. 

[Spaghetti Betty]

I think you might just be overthinking it a bit. If the recharge of your next is shorter than the animation time of the previous one, then you can queue them up seamlessly, and if you can chain a handful of those together (even if it means repeating a couple of those powers) then you have a rotation. Arcanatime doesn't really have an effect on that.

 

If you're referring to the build we discussed in discord, it probably doesn't feel seamless against a Pylon since it hinges on FF procs to be smooth. I personally don't build for Pylon testing ever, mostly just what feels effective in a "real combat scenario".

 

We can do some exploration in game if you need it. I don't mind!

 

Though it might not be for a little nit

[Luminara]

Start by figuring out how long each attack in your chain takes to execute.  This is where Arcanatime, the extra 0.132 second of server processing/response time, is important.  The more attacks you use, the greater the discrepancy if you don't account for Arcanatime.  If you use 4 attacks in your chain and fail to account for Arcanatime, your chain time would be off by over half a second.  You get the "still recharging" sound, punch your computer and log out in a huff because the game is a lying asshat.

 

Once you know that, you then have goals for the recharge times of your powers.  If your attack chain is 1/2/3/4, you want 1 recharged by the time 4 is finished animating.  Here, you have the opposite problem from factoring for animation time.  The more attacks you use, the easier it is to build an attack chain, because you're adding more animation time to the chain and leaning less into recharge time.  The same is true if you're using attacks with longer animation times.  Of course, that also means cluttering up your trays with more attacks, reducing room for other powers, like buffs, debuffs and controls.  Then you punch your computer and log out in a huff because the UI is an uncooperative douche nozzle.

 

Designing and implementing a fluid attack chain is a multi-step process.  For each attack, you have to calculate the animation time of the rest of the chain, but not that attack.  The number at which you arrive is when that attack has to be fully recharged.

 

So to figure out the minimum recharge time in an attack chain with 4 attacks:

1. Determine the total animation time for attacks 2, 3 and 4.  This is when attack 1 has to be fully recharged.
2. Determine the total animation time for attacks 3, 4 and 1.  This is when attack 2 has to be fully recharged.
3. Determine the total animation time for attacks 4, 1 and 2.  This is when attack 3 has to be fully recharged.
4. Determine the total animation time for attacks 1, 2 and 3.  This is when attack 4 has to be fully recharged.

Now you have your recharge time targets.  You want each attack to recharge no later than when the previous three attacks have completed their full animation time plus Arcanatime (again, 0.132s per power).

 

Thus, if you have an attack with a base recharge time of 10 seconds and the other three attacks in your chain total 4.7 seconds of animation time, your goal is to have that attack recharging in 4.7 seconds or less.

 

Again, this has to be factored for every attack.

 

Example: my Fire/Rad sentinel's attack chain is a very simple Fire Blast/Blaze/Blazing Blast/Fire Ball.

1. Fire Blast has to be recharged in 1.188+1.848+1.188=4.224 seconds.  Easy peasy since its base recharge time is only 5 seconds.
2. Blaze has to be recharged in 1.848+1.188+1.452=4.488 seconds.  Base recharge time is 10 seconds, so I need more than 100% total +Recharge in it.  Enhancements make most of that, so still easy.
3. Blazing Blast has to be recharged in 1.188+1.452+1.188=3.828 seconds.  Base recharge time for Blazing Blast is 12 seconds, and we need it to drop to almost a fourth of that, so we have to lean much more heavily into global +Recharge.
4. Fire Ball has to be recharged in 1.452+1.188+1.848=4.488 seconds.  With a 16 second base recharge time, we're once again looking at a heavier investment in global +Recharge to bring it down to almost a fourth.

With target recharge times, it's a simple matter of tailoring enhanced values and global +Recharge to ensure that your attack chain is perfectly fluid.  You can use Mids' to do that, or even scratch it out on paper with a pencil.  Recharge is very easy to calculate, as all sources of Recharge are applied collectively toward the total.  If you have 95% from enhancements and 200% from global +Recharge, then you know you have 295% total applied to that power.  As all powers have a base 100%, you add that to the total, move the decimal two places to the left and divide the power's recharge time by that number, which would be 3.95 (95+200+100=395, 3.95 decimal shifted) in this example.

 

If your attack chain is non-sequential, meaning you repeat one or more attacks before the end, it's the same process, but you have to ensure that the repeated attack has an acceptable recharge time.  My Grav/TA's attack chain is Cross Punch/Fissure/Cross Punch/Seismic Smash.  Fissure's animation time is 2.244 seconds, so I need Cross Punch to recharge in less time than that.  Not terribly difficult, as Cross Punch's base recharge time is only 8 seconds.

 

Attacks with very long recharge times requires either longer attack chains, attack chains with longer animations, or exorbitant amounts of +Recharge.  Using my Grav/TA as an example again, Seismic Smash has such a long base recharge time (28s) that I need an extreme amount of +Recharge bring it down to 5.94 seconds or less in order to make the attack chain fluid (117.6% in the attack and ~255% global).

 

So, figure out the animation times, figure out the requisite recharge time for each attack based on the total animation time of the other attacks, then make each attack recharge by or before then.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Thank you for a full explanation. It is very helpful and much appreciated. 

There is a potentially crucial detail that I may have somehow missed. For a long time it seemed visually like powers start to recharge once they are activated and I've been trying to calculate attack chains with that in mind. But, it seems implied that powers only become available to use again according to the following formula ...

 

power cast time + 1 unit of arcanatime + recharge time

... where recharge time is the result of dividing base recharge time by the total recharge directly in the power plus global recharge (assuming no external recharge buffs or debuffs). 

Did I get that right? If I did, then everything else about your post makes sense to me and I can (finally!) start working out attack chains in a better way. 

[Luminara]

27 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

There is a potentially crucial detail that I may have somehow missed. For a long time it seemed visually like powers start to recharge once they are activated and I've been trying to calculate attack chains with that in mind.

 

Recharge begins after the animation ends.  Always.

 

31 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

But, it seems implied that powers only become available to use again according to the following formula ...

 

power cast time + 1 unit of arcanatime + recharge time

... where recharge time is the result of dividing base recharge time by the total recharge directly in the power plus global recharge (assuming no external recharge buffs or debuffs).

 

That's cycle time, the time between uses of an individual power.  I suspect that's where your errors have been appearing.  I've done it more than a couple of times, with the expected computer punching and logging out in a huff.

 

For attack chains, you separate animation time from recharge time.  You do it that way because each attack's recharge time is only relevant to the total animation time of all of the other attacks in the chain in this context . Attack 1's recharge time is checked against the animation times of Attacks 2, 3 and 4; Attack 2's recharge time is checked against the animation times of Attacks 3, 4 and 1; Attack 3's recharge time is checked against the animation times of Attacks 4, 1 and 2; and Attack 4's recharge time is checked against the animation times of Attacks 1, 2 and 3.

 

In other words, you're grouping attacks to count total animation time, excluding one attack, and comparing that animation time total to the excluded attack's modified recharge time.  You rotate attacks into and out of the group as you go, adding in the previously excluded one and excluding a different one sequentially, comparing numbers each time to ensure that all of your attacks are recharging at rate equivalent to or below the total animation time of the other attacks.  Your goal is to match (or go below) each individual attack's recharge time to all of the other attacks' cumulative animation time.

 

It's worth mentioning a well optimized attack chain has as few attacks as possible.  The more you use, the less DPA you're dealing.  Stick to your strongest 3-5 attacks.  I almost never use more than 4, and when I do, the fifth is always another AoE or PBAoE.

 

You can let Mids' do the recharge calculations, and it has a setting to add Arcanatime to animation times, so you don't have to do this in your head.  Open your calculator program, or the app on your phone, and use that to plug the numbers in while referencing your Mids' build.  Just be certain that you double-check the animation and recharge times at City of Data.  You're better off using Mids' and/or City of Data anyway, because even though Arcanatime is a known value, the game rounds animation times up to specific numbers.  1.188, 1.32, 1.452, 1.67 and so on.  If you try to fit Arcanatime in manually, your numbers will tend to be a few hundredths of a second off.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Distilling the core message down, it seems the following are the basic facts to bear in mind ...

1. Add arcanatime to each attack's base animation time, as well as a very short time period that rounds up to fit CPU cycle times
 - Do this by clicking the appropriate place in Mids options so it adds in arcanatime and also adds in the "rounding up" effect to adjust for CPU cycles

2. Each power starts to recharge after its animation time, where "animation time" refers to ... base casting time + arcanatime + rounding up to fit CPU cycles

3. To make an attack chain seamless, all powers need to recharge before all other attack powers used in the chain finish their animation times
 - This last point can be a bit more complex to work out when powers are used more than once as part of an attack chain. But, this principle still holds.

As a related observation, 3 - 5 attack powers in a chain is usually a good number. Practically speaking, as more powers are added to an attack chain you're at some point going to be adding in powers that have lower DPA and that you couldn't slot as well because the total number of slots available for attacks will always be limited. So, this totally makes sense. 

Hopefully I got it right this time. And, thank you for your patience in explaining this. 

Edited February 11 by EnjoyTheJourney

[StarseedWarrior]

I get what your looking for, many players do not really look for fluid and fast attack chains in the perspective of the eyes, many do not even look at the animations so your getting the wrong advice somewhat. I highly recommend fire, sonic, water power, staff, dual pistols, energy, martial arts, street fighting, beam rifle for ranged, for secondaries like defenses you want all toggles or passives there are quite a few I like sr for that, ele armor I recently discoered and its good to. I do not have allot of experience with control powers or support beyond a few atm, but from what ive seen storm seems very fluid, as well as empathy, force field, time sonic, maybe radiation but I used it on my controller for debuffing and it was still kind of clunky but more fluid then others, not sure on plants, cold, and I  mained a d/d defender on live so I know dark powers are super slow so do not bother.

[Luminara]

On 2/12/2024 at 11:13 AM, StarseedWarrior said:

I get what your looking for, many players do not really look for fluid and fast attack chains in the perspective of the eyes, many do not even look at the animations so your getting the wrong advice somewhat.

 

Did you have some insight into the mathematics and methodology of creating perfect attack chains that you wished to share?  Were my calculations erroneous?  Was my approach unworkable?  Please, enlighten us.

 

On 2/12/2024 at 11:13 AM, StarseedWarrior said:

I highly recommend fire, sonic, water power, staff, dual pistols, energy, martial arts, street fighting, beam rifle for ranged, for secondaries like defenses you want all toggles or passives there are quite a few I like sr for that, ele armor I recently discoered and its good to. I do not have allot of experience with control powers or support beyond a few atm, but from what ive seen storm seems very fluid, as well as empathy, force field, time sonic, maybe radiation but I used it on my controller for debuffing and it was still kind of clunky but more fluid then others, not sure on plants, cold, and I  mained a d/d defender on live so I know dark powers are super slow so do not bother.

 

Which addresses the question of designing and implementing a fluid attack chain... how?

[StarseedWarrior]

38 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Did you have some insight into the mathematics and methodology of creating perfect attack chains that you wished to share?  Were my calculations erroneous?  Was my approach unworkable?  Please, enlighten us.

 

 

Which addresses the question of designing and implementing a fluid attack chain... how?

Why are you defensive? I did not say anything about peoples advice in numbers, I do not need to explain anything it should be very obvious in what sense here considering the animations are faster on certain powers which I clearly stated.

Edited February 13 by StarseedWarrior

[Luminara]

42 minutes ago, StarseedWarrior said:

Why are you defensive? I did not say anything about peoples advice in numbers, I do not need to explain anything it should be very obvious in what sense here considering the animations are faster on certain powers which I clearly stated.

 

The question proposed in the original post was how to understand the process behind creating a seamless attack chain.  @EnjoyTheJourney didn't ask which sets were easier to make attack chains with, or for advice on selecting sets for face-rolling without bothering to make attack chains, he/she very specifically asked to be educated on the process of making attack chains.

 

After the question was answered, you interjected the following:

 

On 2/12/2024 at 11:13 AM, StarseedWarrior said:

your getting the wrong advice

 

I politely invited you to expand on the assertion that there was something wrong with the answer.  If my information or methodology was inaccurate, it should be corrected so that misinformation doesn't spread.  Inquiry, not defense.

 

1 hour ago, StarseedWarrior said:

animations are faster on certain powers

 

Are you, perhaps, trying to say that certain sets are "better" than others for attack chain optimization due to generally lower animation times?  Because if so, that would be misinformation in need of correction.

 

Attack chain optimization is independent of sets.  Whether or not an attack chain can be made seamless relies only on two mechanics, animation times and recharge times.  The choice of primary or secondary is purely preferential, not a mandatory element of seamless chains.  If you scroll up and review my first post in this thread, you'll note that I have a character with an attack chain which uses one pool attack (Cross Punch) and two APP attacks (Fissure and Seismic Smash).  The attack chain mentioned, Cross Punch/Fissure/Cross Punch/Seismic Smash, is perfectly fluid, despite none of those attacks coming from the primary or secondary.  So, clearly, neither primary nor secondary sets have anything to do with whether or not an attack chain is seamless.

 

Furthermore, sets with almost all fast animations actually make it harder to create seamless attack chains, as those short animations create more potential for gaps in the chain.  What that means is unless the set also has almost all attacks with very short recharge times, the attacks with longer recharge times force the player to either develop a lower DPA attack chain, or an attack chain which uses some attacks non-sequentially (randomly tossing in an attack with a short recharge time to fill the gap), or requires attacks from outside the set (pools, *PPs, temp powers) to achieve viability.  Using one or two attacks with comparatively slow animations is mathematically better for making an attack chain perfectly fluid than trying to hammer together a lot of rapidly animating attacks, and can often be the factor fixes an attack chain which would otherwise be interrupted by a recharge time gap.

 

/Martial Assault provides a perfect example of this problem.  It isn't possible to create an attack chain with fewer than 5 of the attacks, and even with 5, it's a stretch, requiring non-sequential attack use and more than 175% global +Recharge in addition to slotting every attack with maximal Recharge Reduction and using the Spiritual or Agility Alphas... or throwing away the highest DPA attack, Masterful Throw.  So, clearly, a set with a lot of fast animations is not better suited for building a seamless attack chain.  Fluidity is reliant on either incorporating enough animation time to allow attacks to recharge when or before they're required, and the brute force "THROW MOAR RECHARGE AT IT" approach is not only inelegant, but fails as often as it works.

[StarseedWarrior]

6 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

The question proposed in the original post was how to understand the process behind creating a seamless attack chain.  @EnjoyTheJourney didn't ask which sets were easier to make attack chains with, or for advice on selecting sets for face-rolling without bothering to make attack chains, he/she very specifically asked to be educated on the process of making attack chains.

 

After the question was answered, you interjected the following:

 

 

I politely invited you to expand on the assertion that there was something wrong with the answer.  If my information or methodology was inaccurate, it should be corrected so that misinformation doesn't spread.  Inquiry, not defense.

 

 

Are you, perhaps, trying to say that certain sets are "better" than others for attack chain optimization due to generally lower animation times?  Because if so, that would be misinformation in need of correction.

 

Attack chain optimization is independent of sets.  Whether or not an attack chain can be made seamless relies only on two mechanics, animation times and recharge times.  The choice of primary or secondary is purely preferential, not a mandatory element of seamless chains.  If you scroll up and review my first post in this thread, you'll note that I have a character with an attack chain which uses one pool attack (Cross Punch) and two APP attacks (Fissure and Seismic Smash).  The attack chain mentioned, Cross Punch/Fissure/Cross Punch/Seismic Smash, is perfectly fluid, despite none of those attacks coming from the primary or secondary.  So, clearly, neither primary nor secondary sets have anything to do with whether or not an attack chain is seamless.

 

Furthermore, sets with almost all fast animations actually make it harder to create seamless attack chains, as those short animations create more potential for gaps in the chain.  What that means is unless the set also has almost all attacks with very short recharge times, the attacks with longer recharge times force the player to either develop a lower DPA attack chain, or an attack chain which uses some attacks non-sequentially (randomly tossing in an attack with a short recharge time to fill the gap), or requires attacks from outside the set (pools, *PPs, temp powers) to achieve viability.  Using one or two attacks with comparatively slow animations is mathematically better for making an attack chain perfectly fluid than trying to hammer together a lot of rapidly animating attacks, and can often be the factor fixes an attack chain which would otherwise be interrupted by a recharge time gap.

 

/Martial Assault provides a perfect example of this problem.  It isn't possible to create an attack chain with fewer than 5 of the attacks, and even with 5, it's a stretch, requiring non-sequential attack use and more than 175% global +Recharge in addition to slotting every attack with maximal Recharge Reduction and using the Spiritual or Agility Alphas... or throwing away the highest DPA attack, Masterful Throw.  So, clearly, a set with a lot of fast animations is not better suited for building a seamless attack chain.  Fluidity is reliant on either incorporating enough animation time to allow attacks to recharge when or before they're required, and the brute force "THROW MOAR RECHARGE AT IT" approach is not only inelegant, but fails as often as it works.

I thought he also wanted to know about animations I think I misread so I will just delete my original response, was all of this really necessary? I was never arguing numbers I also made that really clear and you seem to have some sort of issue with me in general I hope I am wrong.

Edited February 14 by StarseedWarrior

[Maelwys]

The OP lucked out and caught Luminara on a good day, so all the important bits have already been covered.

2c follows.
 

On 2/10/2024 at 10:03 PM, Luminara said:

So, figure out the animation times, figure out the requisite recharge time for each attack based on the total animation time of the other attacks, then make each attack recharge by or before then.

This is the build design aspect of "attack chains" in a nutshell.

Choose several attack powers that you want to rotate, then look closely at the ones with the longest recharge times. You'll want these powers to be fully recharged by the time the others attacks in the chain are finished animating (and adding up the animation times accurately is where "arcanatime" comes in). 

"Hard mode" is figuring out the damage-per-animation-time (DPA) of each of your attacks and making sure that the attacks with the highest DPA get used as often as possible.

"Expert Mode" is the same as hard mode, but also factors in things like damage buffs / resistance debuffs (since often it will make more sense *not* to use the highest-DPA power if your buffs/debuffs need refreshed instead - Claws "Follow Up" is a good example of this). +Recharge buffs can sometimes be useful to include here too.

"Ludicrous Mode" is breaking out the spreadsheets for Damage Proc likelihood (PPM) calculations (where you need to balance "recharge rate reduction" slotting in each power so that your damage procs activate more often) and figuring out what T4 Interface Incarnate slot will work best (and it's not ALWAYS one of the Degenerative flavours!).

---------------------

However after you do all that, you'll still need to actually play the character and rotate through the attack chain.

This can have its challenges, because not all attack chains are created equally. Some characters will have very simple repeating optimal attack chains (such as a high-recharge Katana Scrapper - Gambler's Cut -> Soaring Dragon -> Gambler's Cut -> Golden Dragonfly) but others can be infuriatingly complex (the best I could get an old Axe Tanker of mine down to was 9 steps Chop -> Cleave -> Swoop -> Chop -> Gash -> Cleave -> Chop -> Swoop -> Gash).


CoH doesn't have "sequential power activation scripts"... the closest you can get are binds/macros that activate multiple toggles.
Clicky powers are trickier.
But there are a few lifehacks that can help to automate activating a large bunch of clickies.

One option is to use keybind text files - this will let you mash a single button on your keyboard/joypad/etc that cycles through all of your attacks and tries to activate each one in turn.

Spoiler

Pick a folder on your computer.
Let's assume this is something like C:\Games\Coh\Binds\

Now within that folder, make a few text files. 
Power1.txt
Power2.txt
Power3.txt
Power4.txt

Within each of those files, declare a keybind statement like the below:
(In Power1.txt) BUTTON1 "bindloadfilesilent c:\games\coh\binds\power2.txt$$powexec_name POWER1"
(In Power2.txt) BUTTON1 "bindloadfilesilent c:\games\coh\binds\power3.txt$$powexec_name POWER2"
(In Power3.txt) BUTTON1 "bindloadfilesilent c:\games\coh\binds\power4.txt$$powexec_name POWER3"
(In Power4.txt) BUTTON1 "bindloadfilesilent c:\games\coh\binds\power1.txt$$powexec_name POWER4"

You can extend this up to however many attack powers you have, 
The important bit is that the last file in the sequence loads the first file again.

However the more powers used in your chosen attack chain, the more times you'll have to mash that chosen button in order for the bind sequence to "find the right power".
You can get around this somewhat by setting the button itself to 'Turbofire' (either via a hardware gaming keyboard/joypad/whatever setting, or via something like a GlovePIE script) but it'll only ever work as fast as your computer can load up the text files. So there'll always be a chance of a slight delay between power activations; which is why manually activating one attack and queueing up the next is always going to be the way to go if you care about bleeding-edge maximum damage output (most don't, so sequental keybinds are often "good enough"! 😁 )

An alternative option (which can also combine nicely with the bind files!) is to use the green "autofire" feature that is built into CoH.
If you hold down the "Control" key and click on one of the powers in your tray, it'll put a green circle around it.
That power will now automatically try to activate whenever it is recharged + has a valid target. 
This only works for a single power at a time, but if you use it on a decent-damage fast-recharging attack then it can often be enough to fill in any gaps in your chain and over time it'll save you an awful lot of button mashing.
 

Edited February 14 by Maelwys

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

The OP lucked out and caught Luminara on a good day

 

It's always a good day when I can do something I like, and I really like logistics.  I have a natural aptitude for it.  That's all an attack chain is, a logistical problem to be solved.  Animation and recharge times are supply, key presses are demand, the chain is delivery.