Some HEAT questions

[Neiska]

Hi forums,

 

I have a few HEAT questions. I have read many of the topics here but have never played Peacebringer or Warshade.

 

1. What is the current state of the Aliens? How far can you go or push with them? I rarely see them in teams, so I am wondering if people just don't like them, or if they are one of the weaker ATs or what exactly? Or they just never been popular?

 

2. Is it "necessary" to do the whole quick-shift macro dancing? I'm guessing there are likely many ways to build and play a HEAT, but for those of us who don't want to be constantly changing shapes every few attacks, how far could we go without it?

 

3. I doubt they can, but are HEATS among those that can solo avs/gms? I don't see any -regen anywhere, but I'm uncertain how good their end DPS looks and not sure if they would need it. Being able to solo av/gms isn't make or break for me either, mostly I've never heard of someone doing it with a Kheldian.

 

4. I tend to solo more than team, but sort of unsure which one is better for soloing. PB seems to be more consistent, WS seems to be able to push ahead in bursts. I am sort of leaning 2-form WS at the moment (Human and Dwarf) because I like being durable, with ways to power-up. That and WS gets damage aura and their own fold space which seems awesome.

 

Thanks bunches in advance

[Laucianna]

Allow me to introduce myself ❤️ probably the biggest advocate for Kheldians out there after Widower 😄

 

1 - current state we are in a good place, my PB can do all content in the game well, however it comes with experience not just a level 50.

 

2 - for a lot of content no, but you will be 1/3 as effective as a quick changing Kheldian (Changeling/Shifter) thankfully on my guide it has the binds down to only requiring a single button press, so its not as daunting as it looks ❤️

 

3 - I will have to test solo but i believe we could, we have good dps and good resists, plus with lores and daggers we have -regen

 

4 - Honestly PB can solo with ease once you know how to play, from level 1 to +4/x8 missions, WS you will probably die more.

 

If you have any questions let me know and I will HAPPILY answer them ❤️

 

 

[Neiska]

Mhm, I've read your guides, so thanks for that. I understand the gist of most of it, but I think its one of those things where you really have to play them to get the full impression. I did watch your PB farming vid, and while I like the results, it was all the constant form-hopping that I didn't like. I presumed PBs/WSs normally picked 1 or 2 forms to focus on, just to have options on team makeup. But making maros to auto-change to cast a power and auto-change back seems a bit, I dunno, difficult to put a word to it. A lot of work for questionable (to me) gain? (compaired to other ATs)

 

It just looked like you were going human-human-dwarf-human-human-dwarf-human-squid-human-human-dwarf-human etc. Basically changing form to use whatever attack you wanted to. Personally I don't think i would mind that, if there was an option to turn the graphics for them off. Just the constantly changing sizes/appearance every few attacks isn't something I think I would enjoy. Hence why I asked if that was necessary. And if someone who doesn't do that is only 1/3rd as good as someone who does, and it takes macros to do all that, seems a bit broken to me. Not to hate on the AT at all, especially when I have never played one. It just seems... clunky? And if that is how it was "supposed" to work, shouldn't it be baked in without having to make macros and such? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the whole toggle vs shape thing a new feature too? Before toggles would toggle off when you shifted, but they stay on now form to form, with only correct ones applying, correct?

 

I was mostly wondering how good it could be, if someone "didn't" do that. But only 1/3rd as strong/good seems like... well, quite a lot to lose. I could see losing some, sure. But 70%? Thats kind of crazy and makes me wonder how things were before the quick-shift-toggle-feature was added.

 

But thanks for your time, do appreciate it.

[Laucianna]

The bind put simply is: activate form - power - deactivate form 🙂 the speed in the video is from someone who has played a PB for 2 years straight remember 🙂

 

Its not how the AT is intended to play, but sadly until the rework it is the only way we can compete on damage. I've tested both human only and tri form and sadly the numbers are true, hence why there is still the stigma of Kheldians doing no damage and unable to tank, since most people know of them pre changeling.

[tidge]

My hot takes

 

2 hours ago, Neiska said:

1. What is the current state of the Aliens? How far can you go or push with them? I rarely see them in teams, so I am wondering if people just don't like them, or if they are one of the weaker ATs or what exactly? Or they just never been popular?

 

I see a lot of folks PUGing with Warshades; I observe Peacebringers in fewer (non-zero) numbers. Writing only for myself: there isn't as much room for variety in play with Kheldians as there is from other ATs. My PoV is that because the options for personalization are almost exclusively in the slotting (of nearly all the same power choices) it is really hard to even judge (from teh outside) the performance of any given Kheldian build/play.

 

Personally, I think there remains some lingering feelings about Warshades being OP because of the old "MF Warshade Guide". Even though I personally find Warshades to fun to play, and I like being able to fill different roles... I think there are plenty of other ATs that can end up being built to be much more impressive than WS.

 

2 hours ago, Neiska said:

2. Is it "necessary" to do the whole quick-shift macro dancing? I'm guessing there are likely many ways to build and play a HEAT, but for those of us who don't want to be constantly changing shapes every few attacks, how far could we go without it?

 

No. I don't quick-shift via macro-dancing. I do change forms constantly, but I don't use the 'exploit'.

 

2 hours ago, Neiska said:

3. I doubt they can, but are HEATS among those that can solo avs/gms? I don't see any -regen anywhere, but I'm uncertain how good their end DPS looks and not sure if they would need it. Being able to solo av/gms isn't make or break for me either, mostly I've never heard of someone doing it with a Kheldian.

 

In my experience: Kheldians cannot solo defeat typical AVs or GMs. Maybe I'm just not L33T ENUF, but I tried a speed run of the Yin TF (default settings) and my Warshade took twice as long as a Tanker/Scrapper/Stalker and even longer than a Controller. Both my Warshade and my Controller needed to summon a Shivan to defeat Clamor. Generally *I* don't consider using Lores or other summons as having a build "able to solo", as most 50+ characters can duo just most AVs and GMs.

 

If I had to self-assess what my problem was: There was no easy way to debuff, do enough damage, and stand fast against the AV. Maybe with the quick-shift exploit, but otherwise it was an incredibly annoying grind.

 

2 hours ago, Neiska said:

4. I tend to solo more than team, but sort of unsure which one is better for soloing. PB seems to be more consistent, WS seems to be able to push ahead in bursts. I am sort of leaning 2-form WS at the moment (Human and Dwarf) because I like being durable, with ways to power-up. That and WS gets damage aura and their own fold space which seems awesome.

 

I don't think there is much of a difference in either solo or PUG play, except that the WS can IMO do more with larger spawns.

 

[The Trouble]

A handful of Archetypes have a lot of versatility, but Warshades and Peacebringers also have access to a shocking amount of durability.

 

We can easily get lost in the weeds when talking about damage output meta.  I'm a moderately good player with a min-maxed build, and like tidge, I can't solo AV's or GM's with my Tri-Form Peacebringer.  But what has my competent playing and maxed build done for teams?  I have saved multiple tank-types because I watch the team's health like I'm a playing a support class.  Dwarf up, get next to the battered Tank (don't want to scatter their hard work), and Taunt.  Once the Tanker catches their breath, I get back to chipping away the enemy's HP at range.

 

I can pull 4-5 Monsters at a time to the League during a Hami Raid, and then later help the DPS of the ranged team on the same character.  It feels great never having to type "Alting".

 

Without any changeling stuff, I get to feel like a hero's hero. You can get that feeling with other Archetypes, but you're never gonna look as good doing it 😎

 

 

[Dungeoness Eloora]

Judging from what you've posted so far @Neiska, I think you may find the most effective playstyle that a fully engaged PB can offer too daunting/annoying, but it depends on the level of fun you might experience while playing. That's perfectly ok, as not every AT suits every player. If you wanted to build a quite durable scrapper, sentinel or blaster that sort of had a similar vibe to playing a PB or WS, you could do so. Their damage would be better, their focus more narrow, and the visual noise of form swapping would be removed.

 

If you still chose to pursue playing a HEAT, I think you will need to truly understand that there isn't really a "focusing on 1 or 2 forms" mindset. You are all 3 forms at all times, that is, if you truly want to embrace the full hybrid nature of the AT. For example, unless you are your party's only tank, and every other squishy is going to melt should you not be taunting every 5 seconds, you shouldn't consider "sitting" in dwarf form and only using dwarf form attacks to be a viable method of prolonged gameplay. It simply isn't its own well-rounded character. Sure, you'll be sturdy and can punch things, but it only takes a split second for a mob to exit your reach, taunted or not. You need to be comfortable swapping to human or nova quickly when the occasion requires ranged attacks (and AoE), because that power is baked into the playstyle, and you will be more effective in combat because of it.

 

Human form does have, by and large, more buffs and attacks available to use, but generally the dwarf/nova attacks are going to better in almost every way. If you tend to solo, you need to be able to clear mobs quickly, while being durable enough to absorb all of the damage they fire back. This is why the most powerful and recent builds, for PB in particular, de-emphasize human form attacks in favor of dwarf/nova attacks. And this is why recharge is so vital to stack for both HEATs, so that Eclipse or Light Form is effectively permanent.

 

As others who choose not to play the fastest changeling style builds have stated, it's possible to play and enjoy playing without swapping forms as fast as folks like @Laucianna do. You certainly don't have to play that way while leveling up and learning the AT either. It's just a matter of accepting the fact that the ceiling is higher vs. most other AT's, and you will get out what you put into it. Good luck!

[Neiska]

1 hour ago, Dungeoness Eloora said:

Judging from what you've posted so far @Neiska, I think you may find the most effective playstyle that a fully engaged PB can offer too daunting/annoying, but it depends on the level of fun you might experience while playing. That's perfectly ok, as not every AT suits every player. If you wanted to build a quite durable scrapper, sentinel or blaster that sort of had a similar vibe to playing a PB or WS, you could do so. Their damage would be better, their focus more narrow, and the visual noise of form swapping would be removed.

 

If you still chose to pursue playing a HEAT, I think you will need to truly understand that there isn't really a "focusing on 1 or 2 forms" mindset. You are all 3 forms at all times, that is, if you truly want to embrace the full hybrid nature of the AT. For example, unless you are your party's only tank, and every other squishy is going to melt should you not be taunting every 5 seconds, you shouldn't consider "sitting" in dwarf form and only using dwarf form attacks to be a viable method of prolonged gameplay. It simply isn't its own well-rounded character. Sure, you'll be sturdy and can punch things, but it only takes a split second for a mob to exit your reach, taunted or not. You need to be comfortable swapping to human or nova quickly when the occasion requires ranged attacks (and AoE), because that power is baked into the playstyle, and you will be more effective in combat because of it.

 

Human form does have, by and large, more buffs and attacks available to use, but generally the dwarf/nova attacks are going to better in almost every way. If you tend to solo, you need to be able to clear mobs quickly, while being durable enough to absorb all of the damage they fire back. This is why the most powerful and recent builds, for PB in particular, de-emphasize human form attacks in favor of dwarf/nova attacks. And this is why recharge is so vital to stack for both HEATs, so that Eclipse or Light Form is effectively permanent.

 

As others who choose not to play the fastest changeling style builds have stated, it's possible to play and enjoy playing without swapping forms as fast as folks like @Laucianna do. You certainly don't have to play that way while leveling up and learning the AT either. It's just a matter of accepting the fact that the ceiling is higher vs. most other AT's, and you will get out what you put into it. Good luck!

 

It's not really a question of complexity, I actually enjoy complex ATs and builds, different ways to engage a group, and thinking outside the box. As an example, sometimes I 3 box masterminds and even farm with them because I find brute and tanker farming to be so mind-numbingly dull. I just dislike the whole "turn into something else, attack, and change back" aspect. If there was a way to disable the model change so you look the same, I might be able to get into it. But if shifting is optimal for PB/WS then I will likely dislike it. 

[Laucianna]

2 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

It's not really a question of complexity, I actually enjoy complex ATs and builds, different ways to engage a group, and thinking outside the box. As an example, sometimes I 3 box masterminds and even farm with them because I find brute and tanker farming to be so mind-numbingly dull. I just dislike the whole "turn into something else, attack, and change back" aspect. If there was a way to disable the model change so you look the same, I might be able to get into it. But if shifting is optimal for PB/WS then I will likely dislike it. 

One of the biggest asks for Kheldians has been a "minimal fx" option for the forms but sadly you will be at a big disadvantage playing just human (Though about the same as a normal Tri Form without the extra utility)

Human only average DPS: 319.25

Tri Form average DPS: 280.2

Changeling average DPS: 711.79

[Neiska]

5 hours ago, Laucianna said:

One of the biggest asks for Kheldians has been a "minimal fx" option for the forms but sadly you will be at a big disadvantage playing just human (Though about the same as a normal Tri Form without the extra utility)

Human only average DPS: 319.25

Tri Form average DPS: 280.2

Changeling average DPS: 711.79

 

Yea, that's quite a bit of difference. But on the positive side, pretty sure PBs and WS have never had any hard changes or tweaks, just the toggle thing, so maybe they will be next to be looked at?

[Laucianna]

6 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

Yea, that's quite a bit of difference. But on the positive side, pretty sure PBs and WS have never had any hard changes or tweaks, just the toggle thing, so maybe they will be next to be looked at?

 

I believe Masterminds are next but hopefully after that! I know the Devs are going to rework Kheldians in the hopefully near future, I just pray I'll enjoy them after still 😄

[FlammeFatale]

On 5/9/2024 at 12:42 PM, Neiska said:

3. I doubt they can, but are HEATS among those that can solo avs/gms? I don't see any -regen anywhere, but I'm uncertain how good their end DPS looks and not sure if they would need it. Being able to solo av/gms isn't make or break for me either, mostly I've never heard of someone doing it with a Kheldian.

 

Maybe it is just me and my poor skills, but warshades cannot really solo avs/gms. Well they can solo some but it gets tedious, like 15 minutes to kill one. And only at lower difficulties like +1/+2.

Warshades skills need huge mobs to shine, they are not conductive to playing against one big tough mob. They are one of the worst characters for soloing AVs.

[Tiresias]

I can't speak to Warshades, as I've never played one, but my experience with Peacebringers has been as such:

 

1. Properly built, they have a truly insane amount of versatility. No other archetype in the game is going to soak an alpha strike, heal back to full, AoE down the melee mobs, and blast the mobs standing at range ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

2. The amount of durability they get with the push of a single button is comical, to the point where it's probably not okay. Not that it should be nerfed our changed outside of a major class rework, but you can slot a single power and IMMEDIATELY get access to 50 points of resistance across the board in everything but Psionic -- which happens to be the easiest resistance to patch via enhancements.

3. Similarly, the Changeling feature/bug/exploit is simultaneously terribly degenerate and the only thing keeping the AT viable in high-end content.

 

The class also has some very confusing design decisions, such as having a primary attack set that is mostly ranged blasts with insanely low damage, making most of the attack powers useless. Even worse, those powers are largely the EXACT same ones that Nova Form gets, so you don't lose anything by not taking them.

 

As a game designer, I have some strong opinions on how the class could be improved, but I'll save those for another time and place. All I'll say is: if you enjoy playing the Peacebringer in the pretty narrow way that makes it useful and viable right now, it's a fantastic play experience that cannot be had on any other AT in the game. If you do not, play a different AT, as getting outside the rather narrow boundaries that the Peacebringer operates successfully in ruins the play experience.