Request: Weapon Animations for Ranged Power Sets

[megaericzero]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

No. Why would it? The bots are the theme of that power set. Not how they are called. And the gun is the theme of Assault Rifle.

Wraps right back around to: I thought munitions were the point of the set?

 

I'd repost the screenshots of Fire Breath and Laser Beam Eyes coming from hands but I think we already know the progression will be "you're still using fire and energy which are the main point of the sets" > sorry, I didn't realize the point of AR  or DP was launching firearms out of my body > "but they're CALLED Assault Rifle and Dual Pistols." Then I post sets where the explicit name of the set is directly contradicted with customization options but, for some reason, hand-waiving that inconsistency is okay yet the lines you draw are objectively correct and...

 

--

 

On a different, unrelated note and more in-line with the OP, how does anyone feel about options that rotate the weapons between each others' sets - letting Beam Rifle use a bow to be a "bow of light" or allowing Archery to use a rifle so it's a harpoon gun?

Edited September 4 by megaericzero

[keyguardactive]

Wouldn't the best answer to "I don't want assault rifle without the rifle" be "then don't play one?" 

 

Nobody I've seen was pitching "take guns out fully" just "lets have some alternate animations." The specificity of "well they would have to add a thing that takes away hand customization" is weirdly prescriptive on a game designed so you can play your hero your way. 

 

All this is to say, personally, I'm in favor of options I don't even want to play with, just so there's another tool in the toolbox. And if the sticking point is the name? Then they can change the name of the power set. 

[biostem]

1 minute ago, keyguardactive said:

Wouldn't the best answer to "I don't want assault rifle without the rifle" be "then don't play one?" 

IMHO, a lot comes down to how you perceive the purpose of powersets - what is AR or DP without their actual weapons?  When we distill what is being asked for, down to it's most fundamental component, is what you want a blast set that deals lethal damage?  What is one actually asking for, when they say they want "AR without the AR"?

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

I'd repost the screenshots of Fire Breath and Laser Beam Eyes coming from hands but I think we already know the progression will be "you're still using fire and energy which are the main point of the sets" > sorry, I didn't realize the point of AR  or DP was launching firearms out of my body > "but they're CALLED Assault Rifle and Dual Pistols." Then I post sets where the explicit name of the set is directly contradicted with customization options but, for some reason, hand-waiving that inconsistency is okay yet the lines you draw are objectively correct and...

Because like I said back then when you made that post, the theme of Fire Blast is fire. The theme of Robotics is the artificial constructs. The theme of Nature Affinity is nature. The theme of Assault Rifle is the gun. So it doesn't matter where the fire from Fire Blast comes from or how it is used, as long as it is fire. It doesn't matter what constructs are fielded for Robotics, as long as it is a construct. It doesn't matter what nature-based elements are used for Nature Affinity, as long as it is related to nature. And it doesn't matter what weapon is being used with Assault Rifle because it is a weapon.

 

Alternate animations do not change what a power set's theme is. Minimal FX does not change what a power set's theme is. No FX changes what a power set's theme is, and I will oppose it. Removing the weapons from sets defined as being weapons changes what that power set's theme is, and I oppose it. Adding integrated weapons into the available list of weapons for players to choose from does not change what the power set is, it just changes the related animations and emanation points. Removing the weapon from the weapon set completely rather than adding integrated weapons to choose from changes what the power set's theme is.

[megaericzero]

15 hours ago, Rudra said:

The theme of Assault Rifle is the gun.

I don't think we're ever going to agree on that one. To me, the theme of AR is munitions - the things flying through the air and actually pelting the enemy - not where they come out of. Otherwise every non-weapon blast set has to be considered Body Blast.

 

15 hours ago, keyguardactive said:

Wouldn't the best answer to "I don't want assault rifle without the rifle" be "then don't play one?" 

We tried that in a thread about a different customization topic but Rudra and some others weren't having it.

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, megaericzero said:

I don't think we're ever going to agree on that one. To me, the theme of AR is munitions - the things flying through the air and actually pelting the enemy - not where they come out of. Otherwise every non-weapon blast set has to be considered Body Blast.

It is in the power set name. Fire Blast is fire, not body blasts that happen to be fire. That is why the request for adding weapons like staves works. Assault Rifle is a gun. If it was the Bullets power set, then it would not also include a grenade, a beanbag, a flamethrower, and a napalm area denial power. That is almost fully half the power set's powers that have nothing to do with bullets. You are conflating things that are not linked.

 

Even the Beam Rifle power set is about the gun. A gun that only fires beams, but still a gun. So integrated weapons for Beam Rifle would have to be implemented the same way. You select Palm Gun, Finger Gun, et al from the weapons drop down menu to get integrated weapons for the set. If you want to not be using a weapon at all? Then you use Energy Blast or Radiation Blast. Dual Pistols? Same thing. Archery? Same thing.

[megaericzero]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

It is in the power set name. Fire Blast is fire, not body blasts that happen to be fire. That is why the request for adding weapons like staves works. Assault Rifle is a gun. If it was the Bullets power set, then it would not also include a grenade, a beanbag, a flamethrower, and a napalm area denial power. That is almost fully half the power set's powers that have nothing to do with bullets. You are conflating things that are not linked.

 

Even the Beam Rifle power set is about the gun. A gun that only fires beams, but still a gun. So integrated weapons for Beam Rifle would have to be implemented the same way. You select Palm Gun, Finger Gun, et al from the weapons drop down menu to get integrated weapons for the set. If you want to not be using a weapon at all? Then you use Energy Blast or Radiation Blast. Dual Pistols? Same thing. Archery? Same thing.

That's why I corrected myself to munitions with respect to AR instead of bullets. Munitions covers other military armaments, including explosives et al.

 

Specifically to the statement "It is in the power set name", I already called it in the first post of this page of the thread that you'd try using that. From there, I go and find evidence of existing customization directly contradicting the specific name of a power set, and you're just going to hand-waive it because your opinion of where the line in the sand is drawn is objectively correct compared to the rest of us. I've already done that dance in the Kheldian thread.

 

On a different note, when you say "finger gun", are you willing to accept bare skin (or tights, etc) making a finger-gun pose? Or are you still hung-up on needing to see a separate device attached/integrated?

[Rudra]

25 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Specifically to the statement "It is in the power set name", I already called it in the first post of this page of the thread that you'd try using that. From there, I go and find evidence of existing customization directly contradicting the specific name of a power set, and you're just going to hand-waive it because your opinion of where the line in the sand is drawn is objectively correct compared to the rest of us. I've already done that dance in the Kheldian thread.

That it is a weapon is in the name. I don't care what weapon it is. You can ask for a living soccer ball your character holds out that says "pew pew pew" as it fires bullets and I wouldn't care because it is a weapon. My whole point is that power sets are built on themes. So take Dual Blades for instance. There are weapons players can select from Dual Blades that are not blades. Oh no. Who cares. They are still weapons and even sticks can be used to cut as evidenced by real world martial arts.

 

If you try to completely take weapons away from power sets that are defined as having weapons, you take away that power set's given identity. If you add weapons to power sets that are not defined as not having weapons but simply as a specific force or type, like Fire Blast, then you are not taking away the set's identity but are instead adding options for players to choose. Something that only defines what it projects getting a different source of projection does not change it. Something that defines the source of projection having that source removed changes it.

 

And our whole argument makes absolutely no sense since what you said you wanted were integrated weapons and I gave possibilities for how those integrated weapons could be added to the power set without breaking the animations and having disconnected emanation points nowhere near what you say you want your character to do. Adding a No Weapon option and claiming it is for your shoulder gatling or your finger gun or you palm-fired arm gun or your nose gun or whatever body part you want to pick gun breaks what you say you want because your character is still going to be animating firing a gun the character does not have with an emanation point nowhere near your character's shoulder, finger, palm, wrist, or any other body part. So why are you so hung up on having to strictly remove the weapon model if your entire justification is that you want integrated weapons which require weapons with emanation points aligned with where you have the weapon integrated and using animations that illustrate the integration being used?

[megaericzero]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

That it is a weapon is in the name. I don't care what weapon it is.

Then don't say this:

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

It is in the power set name.

You either do care what the exact name is or you don't. Otherwise it's a double standard and you're trying to justify your personal opinion.

 

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

And our whole argument makes absolutely no sense since what you said you wanted were integrated weapons and I gave possibilities for how those integrated weapons could be added to the power set without breaking the animations and having disconnected emanation points nowhere near what you say you want your character to do. Adding a No Weapon option and claiming it is for your shoulder gatling or your finger gun or you palm-fired arm gun or your nose gun or whatever body part you want to pick gun breaks what you say you want because your character is still going to be animating firing a gun the character does not have with an emanation point nowhere near your character's shoulder, finger, palm, wrist, or any other body part. So why are you so hung up on having to strictly remove the weapon model if your entire justification is that you want integrated weapons which require weapons with emanation points aligned with where you have the weapon integrated and using animations that illustrate the integration being used?

I think it's more that you're hung-up on your personal definition of No Weapon. I don't think anyone said remove the weapon model and leave the emanation points as-is. We advised alternatives from the character's body, just without requiring a visible piece of equipment on those body parts. We then argued for two-ish pages about whether or not a visual-tell was needed but - to my understanding - the whole time has been under the assumption from both sides that the emanation points would be moved to somewhere on the body when a rifle isn't present. Shoulder, hand, nose, or otherwise; just that some of us think you don't need a defined piece of equipment to be present because you can explain the equipment as being so discrete it's not visible.

 

--

 

If it's a genuine engine limitation - as in the game itself cannot handle a "No Weapon" (or "Integrated Weapon" or whatever) in the costume side dictating new emanation points (since normally X-Ray Beam and others reassign them via the individual powers' customization) - then having a separate Arsenal Blast set makes sense. Otherwise, such a set would either be redundant like Katana was on release or the new set would come with unwanted gimmick(s). I'd rather try to avoid bloating the power set list like that.

Edited September 5 by megaericzero

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

If it's a genuine engine limitation - as in the game itself cannot handle a "No Weapon" (or "Integrated Weapon" or whatever) in the costume side dictating new emanation points (since normally X-Ray Beam and others reassign them via the individual powers' customization)

I don't see why the game wouldn't be able to handle it. It is just that in order to keep the emanation points linked with what you want, it would need to be a weapon choice from the weapon drop down menu. Palm Gun? Okay, that has its set firing animation and emanation point linked to it. Finger Gun? That has its set animation and emanation point linked to it. In order to link what you want, it has to be done through the weapon selection menu. Trying to add it to alternate animations the player chooses from the Custom tab of the character creator is introducing a whole slew of complications. And can still wind up with mismatched emanation points and animations.

 

(Edit: You can see this with the current rifle options. Depending on what model you choose, the emanation point is shifted to match that specific weapon model's barrel.)

 

Edited September 5 by Rudra

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Then don't say this:

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

It is in the power set name.

You either do care what the exact name is or you don't. Otherwise it's a double standard and you're trying to justify your personal opinion.

It is in the name though. Assault Rifle specifies a weapon. It doesn't specify what that weapon looks like, other than it is some sort of weapon launching projectiles; presumably bullets. That rifle can be hand held. That rifle can be mounted on a frame you are wearing. That rifle can be incorporated into your cyborg or robot body. That rifle can be some weird extra-dimensional creature that spits high velocity bullets. It can be a magical musical instrument like a saxophone. (I think there is someone that plays a saxophone to shoot people?) Regardless of what that weapon is or how it is used.

[Psyonico]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Assault Rifle specifies a weapon. It doesn't specify what that weapon looks like

I've been sitting back on this discussion, but have to step in here.  If you're arguing that it's in the name, then the game disagrees with you.  An Assault Rifle is a specific thing.  Specifically it is a rifle (that is, shoots rifle rounds) that has a pistol grip on it.  It is also either semi or fully automatic.  THAT IS THE DEFINITION.

 

Therefore, there shouldn't be a Tommy gun option (as Tommy guns shoot pistol rounds)

 

There also shouldn't be a Nemesis Rifle option, as that does not have the requisite pistol grip.

 

If we want to get out of just the visual element, Assault Rifles don't shoot shotgun shells, beanbags, grenades, or fire... And yet, they do in this game.

 

Your argument that it needs to have a weapon is moot because the game does not define an Assault Rifle the way you want it to.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

I've been sitting back on this discussion, but have to step in here.  If you're arguing that it's in the name, then the game disagrees with you.  An Assault Rifle is a specific thing.  Specifically it is a rifle (that is, shoots rifle rounds) that has a pistol grip on it.  It is also either semi or fully automatic.  THAT IS THE DEFINITION.

 

Therefore, there shouldn't be a Tommy gun option (as Tommy guns shoot pistol rounds)

 

There also shouldn't be a Nemesis Rifle option, as that does not have the requisite pistol grip.

 

If we want to get out of just the visual element, Assault Rifles don't shoot shotgun shells, beanbags, grenades, or fire... And yet, they do in this game.

 

Your argument that it needs to have a weapon is moot because the game does not define an Assault Rifle the way you want it to.

Is an assault rifle a weapon? Yes. (And while there aren't any assault rifles that shoot shotgun shells, there are assault rifles that fire grenades and there are flamethrower rounds that can be loaded into guns. [They are called Dragon's Breath.]) That defines the set as a weapon set. That is what I am saying.

 

However, I'll accept your argument. So okay, the tommygun needs to be removed since it isn't an assault rifle and no, there can be no integrated weapons options added.

[Psyonico]

I'm going to get nitpicky as well.

 

Dragon's Breath is/are shotgun shells, and they don't work like flamethrower/ignite

Assault Rifles themselves cannot fire grenades, you need an attachment to the rifle, therefore they shouldn't be included in your world of "Assault Rifle"

[megaericzero]

8 hours ago, Rudra said:

I don't see why the game wouldn't be able to handle it. It is just that in order to keep the emanation points linked with what you want, it would need to be a weapon choice from the weapon drop down menu. Palm Gun? Okay, that has its set firing animation and emanation point linked to it. Finger Gun? That has its set animation and emanation point linked to it. In order to link what you want, it has to be done through the weapon selection menu. Trying to add it to alternate animations the player chooses from the Custom tab of the character creator is introducing a whole slew of complications. And can still wind up with mismatched emanation points and animations.

 

(Edit: You can see this with the current rifle options. Depending on what model you choose, the emanation point is shifted to match that specific weapon model's barrel.)

 

I was actually unaware weapon customization can adjust emanation points; never paid attention if the barrel lengths made a difference. Thank you for that. I was giving the BOTD to the game that it couldn't since spaghetti code always comes up in weird places so nothing surprises me anymore when it's just not possible because of the code.

 

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

However, I'll accept your argument. So okay, the tommygun needs to be removed since it isn't an assault rifle and no, there can be no integrated weapons options added.

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