New D23 trailers

[ZacKing]

  On 11/14/2024 at 8:50 PM, Without_Pause said:

So someone who hasn't been a sidekick to Captain American in the MCU but a partner and has had his name in a MCU movie and TV show is a total D-lister. Welcome to the internet, where everything is a A-lister or D-lister. Why do other listers even try to exist? 😉

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Did The Winter Soldier have his own solo outing yet?  No.  Why not?  If he's such a hugely popular character, why haven't they given him a solo movie yet?  Iron Man has had three films.  Thor has had four.  Hulk and Black Widow have each had one.  Poor Hawkeye is the only one left out in the cold of the original Avengers.

Does that mean Winter Soldier is a D-Lister?  I don't know if I'd go that far, but if someone else wants to think that, they're certainly welcome to.  I may disagree, and that's fine. 

[ZacKing]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:13 PM, TTRPGWhiz said:

The binary of "you're either A-list / can carry your own movie or you're D list" is where I think people are taking issue. Because it's ridiculous.

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It's an opinion.  Are people not allowed to have them if they don't adhere to your standards? 

[ZacKing]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:13 PM, TTRPGWhiz said:

Nobody said he's that level (although I'd argue that yes, Bucky is a bigger deal in the 616 than Black Widow). 

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So someone having an opinion that Winter Soldier isn't a big deal is absurd, but it's perfectly ok for you to say he is a bigger deal than Black Widow? 

[Excraft]

  On 11/14/2024 at 8:50 PM, Without_Pause said:

So someone who hasn't been a sidekick to Captain American in the MCU but a partner and has had his name in a MCU movie and TV show is a total D-lister. Welcome to the internet, where everything is a A-lister or D-lister. Why do other listers even try to exist? 😉

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Hey you're perfectly welcome to disagree.  I certainly don't begrudge you an opinion.  If you like him, good for you.  Welcome to the internet where people are going to have a different opinion on things. 

[Without_Pause]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:14 PM, ZacKing said:

 

Did The Winter Soldier have his own solo outing yet?  No.  Why not?  If he's such a hugely popular character, why haven't they given him a solo movie yet?  Iron Man has had three films.  Thor has had four.  Hulk and Black Widow have each had one.  Poor Hawkeye is the only one left out in the cold of the original Avengers.

Does that mean Winter Soldier is a D-Lister?  I don't know if I'd go that far, but if someone else wants to think that, they're certainly welcome to.  I may disagree, and that's fine. 

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  On 11/13/2024 at 3:24 PM, Without_Pause said:

I'm not arguing for Bucky being an A-Lister. I'm arguing against him being classified as a D-Lister. 

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Since it has been mentioned, Hawkeye did have his own show.

[Excraft]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:15 PM, ZacKing said:

It's an opinion.  Are people not allowed to have them if they don't adhere to your standards? 

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Some people don't like having their world view challenged or disagreed with.

[Excraft]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:23 PM, Without_Pause said:

Since it has been mentioned, Hawkeye did have his own show.

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Sort of. 😉 The show was more about the "new and improved" Hawkeye Kate Bishop than it was about Clint Barton poor guy took something of a back seat in his own TV show.  The guy just can't win. 🤣

Edited November 14, 2024 by Excraft

[Without_Pause]

Also, saying Hulk has had his MCU movie is really shoehorning that aspect. Technically it is true, but that's more like Marvel sweeping pre MCU things into their stash even when it wasn't theirs, see Daredevil. 

[Without_Pause]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:26 PM, Excraft said:

 

Sort of. 😉 The show was more about the "new and improved" Hawkeye Kate Bishop than it was about Clint Barton poor guy took something of a back seat in his own TV show.  The guy just can't win. 🤣

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It followed his comic. 

[TTRPGWhiz]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:24 PM, Excraft said:

 

Some people don't like having their world view challenged or disagreed with.

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"World view" equating to "here's my opinion about a fictional character" is wild.

"I'm going to make a binary statement; either a character is A list or D list, no in between. You can' t argue with this because it's an opinion. If you try to argue that there's such a thing as nuance, then you're obstinate and don't believe in opinions".

Edited November 14, 2024 by TTRPGWhiz

[TTRPGWhiz]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:19 PM, ZacKing said:

 

So someone having an opinion that Winter Soldier isn't a big deal is absurd, but it's perfectly ok for you to say he is a bigger deal than Black Widow? 

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There's a world of difference between "I'd argue that..." and "here's a thing I believe is true and won't budge on". 

[Excraft]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:28 PM, Without_Pause said:

It followed his comic. 

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I never read it so I can't say for sure.  I'll take your word for it though, and point remains... poor guy couldn't catch a break and took backseat in his own comic.  🤣

 

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:28 PM, TTRPGWhiz said:

"I'm going to make a binary statement; either a character is A list or D list, no in between. You can' t argue with this because it's an opinion. If you try to argue that there's such a thing as nuance, then you're obstinate and don't believe in opinions".

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You're doing the exact same thing you're whining about others doing.  No, there is no nuance for me.  Winter Soldier isn't an A-List character.  Feel free to disagree. 

[Excraft]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:32 PM, TTRPGWhiz said:

There's a world of difference between "I'd argue that..." and "here's a thing I believe is true and won't budge on". 

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Pot, meet kettle.

[TTRPGWhiz]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:28 PM, Without_Pause said:

It followed his comic. 

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Bold of you to assume folks in the Comics Forum have read a comic in the past 25 years. 

[TTRPGWhiz]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:37 PM, Excraft said:

 

You're doing the exact same thing you're whining about others doing.  No, there is no nuance for me.  Winter Soldier isn't an A-List character.  Feel free to disagree. 

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"Isn't an A-List character" isn't the same thing as "isn't an A-List character, therefore is a D-Lister". 

[ZacKing]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:28 PM, TTRPGWhiz said:

"I'm going to make a binary statement; either a character is A list or D list, no in between. You can' t argue with this because it's an opinion. If you try to argue that there's such a thing as nuance, then you're obstinate and don't believe in opinions".

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  On 11/14/2024 at 9:32 PM, TTRPGWhiz said:

There's a world of difference between "I'd argue that..." and "here's a thing I believe is true and won't budge on". 

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  On 11/14/2024 at 9:49 PM, TTRPGWhiz said:

"Isn't an A-List character" isn't the same thing as "isn't an A-List character, therefore is a D-Lister". 

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Ah ok. I get it now.  Everyone should be able to budge on their opinion.... except you.  Yeah, you are doing the very thing you're whining about.   Far as I can see, others have said that they are fine with letting others have a different opinion and respectfully disagree.  There's only one person in this thread calling others absurd for having a different opinion.

[ZacKing]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:27 PM, Without_Pause said:

Also, saying Hulk has had his MCU movie is really shoehorning that aspect. Technically it is true, but that's more like Marvel sweeping pre MCU things into their stash even when it wasn't theirs, see Daredevil. 

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Hulk still had a solo movie though 😁

[TTRPGWhiz]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:53 PM, ZacKing said:

 

Ah ok. I get it now.  Everyone should be able to budge on their opinion.... except you.  Yeah, you are doing the very thing you're whining about.   Far as I can see, others have said that they are fine with letting others have a different opinion and respectfully disagree.  There's only one person in this thread calling others absurd for having a different opinion.

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I never called anyone absurd. I said certain statements were absurd. 
Funny thing about opinions is that other people get to have opinions about them.

If y'all really wanna die on the hill of "characters fall into one of two categories", go for it. I'll call that absurd all day long. Because it's absurd. This is me feeling free to disagree. Y'all can do the same.

Playing the card of "we're all just innocently posting opinions and being respectful of other people's" is some real (attempted) gaslighting lol. 

Edited November 14, 2024 by TTRPGWhiz

[Without_Pause]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:37 PM, TTRPGWhiz said:

Bold of you to assume folks in the Comics Forum have read a comic in the past 25 years. 

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I should clarify and say he's had multiple runs, but the one I am referencing is this one. 

 

https://www.avclub.com/how-did-hawkeye-become-marvel-s-best-comic-1798235313

 

[ZacKing]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:59 PM, TTRPGWhiz said:

I never called anyone absurd. I said certain statements were absurd. 

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Right.  That's calling others and their opinion absurd.  What exactly is the harm in letting someone have an opinion that a character is "D-List"?  If that's what they want to think, so what?  Let them. 

[Without_Pause]

  On 11/14/2024 at 9:54 PM, ZacKing said:

 

Hulk still had a solo movie though 😁

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I feel like many have chugged brain bleach in regards to at least one of them. 😉

[TTRPGWhiz]

  On 11/14/2024 at 10:02 PM, ZacKing said:

 

Right.  That's calling others and their opinion absurd. 

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Wow. It literally isn't. 

[TTRPGWhiz]

  On 11/14/2024 at 10:02 PM, Without_Pause said:

I should clarify and say he's had multiple runs, but the one I am referencing is this one. 

 

https://www.avclub.com/how-did-hawkeye-become-marvel-s-best-comic-1798235313

 

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Yep. Still have that full run. The same team had a great Iron Fist book around that time, too.
For the record / those who haven't read it: Clint Barton is very much not in the backseat of his own book.

[Ghost]

Sigh

Fact is, it can be a team of nobodies.  If the movie is really good, people will watch it and it will make a bunch of money (GOTG).

Just like it could be a well known and loved characters.  But if it sucks, it will suffer at the BO. (WW84)

[InvaderStych]

  On 11/14/2024 at 10:46 PM, Ghost said:

Fact is, it can be a team of nobodies.  If the movie is really good, people will watch it and it will make a bunch of money (GOTG).

Just like it could be a well known and loved characters.  But if it sucks, it will suffer at the BO. (WW84)

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Mostly this.

 

WW84 certainly felt like a phoned-in effort from all involved, so don't mistake the following for a defense of that paint-by-numbers-we're-making-this-because-we-have-to mediocrity.

 

That said, not all box office disasters are inherently bad films, nor are all box office successes inherently good films either. As a quick short-hand, box office is a decent metric to determine general audience reception, but imo its a poor metric upon which to judge a films artistic merit.

 

Brazil, Children of Men, Blade Runner, Fight Club, Office Space ... There's a long history of films that were not initially commercially successful (some weren't even profitable) that were later regarded as high quality works, some even being elevated to the status of "classic" or "seminal" depending on the film being discussed.

 

Heck, even The Wizard of Oz was did not turn a profit in its initial theatrical run.

 

  Quote

According to MGM records, during the film's initial release, it earned $2,048,000 in the U.S. and $969,000 in other countries throughout the world, for total earnings of $3,017,000. However, its high production cost, plus the costs of marketing, distribution, and other services, resulted in a loss of $1,145,000 for the studio.^[3] It did not show what MGM considered a profit until a 1949 re-release earned an additional $1.5 million (about $15 million in 2023).

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(emphasis mine)

 

Citizen Kane also didn't initially fare well by profit/loss metrics (owing in part to Hearst's efforts to bury it) It lost money in several major markets where it initially screened, and while I never agreed with its "GOAT" status despite the incredible work of cinematographer Gregg Tolland (who ground his own lens elements to create some of the deep focus shots among many other innovations during his lifetime), I'm not going to argue that it isn't a seminal work that deserves most of the hype it gets. As Orson Wells movies go, Touch of Evil was his best work, imo.

 

All of that is a long way of saying that we should be considering more metrics than just box office success to determine what makes a movie "good."

 

But to reiterate: WW84 was thoroughly mediocre.