Superheroes and the problem of scale

[Billbailey96]

One thing I think is a problem with super-hero stories, particularly ones about street level superheroes is a matter of scale. The hero themselves are able to handle thugs and the lower tier super villains but due to matters of popularity are often forced into situations outside of the scope of their abilities. (Batman being on the Justice League fighting galactic threats is a good example.) What is yall's opinion of this?

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Billbailey96 said:

One thing I think is a problem with super-hero stories, particularly ones about street level superheroes is a matter of scale. The hero themselves are able to handle thugs and the lower tier super villains but due to matters of popularity are often forced into situations outside of the scope of their abilities. (Batman being on the Justice League fighting galactic threats is a good example.) What is yall's opinion of this?

 

 

We have two different sets of things going on here. The street-level superhero(s) and team-up books with much more powerful heroes.

For the most part, a street-level superhero (even duo or team) are generally not going to fight intergalactic invasions or pandimensional threats.

JLA (and JSA, etc.) combine heroes of multiple levels. The team books tend to bring together the most popular characters regardless of how powerful they are and tries to balance the threat to those that are in the team.

 

With your example of JLA, we have power-levels from Batman to Superman to begin with. Batman (at least back in the day) always tended to be the "brains" behind the JLA (forget the fact that Superman is supposed to have a super-brain and can calculate things at super fast speeds). Batman wasn't going to be able to punch/kick/gadget to defeat intergalactic opponents but he was able to plan a strategy for the others to use to defeat the foe. Same kind of thing goes for the JSA, if Green Lantern, Doctor Fate, and the Spectre have their hands full with an opponent, it is unlikely that Wild Cat is going to be able to punch the enemy unconscious.

In these kind of team books, they used to try to balance the story to give each character something to do instead of putting them in too far over their heads (unless it was a setup for someone else to come rescue them).

 

I don't even know where they have gotten to on all of this in the comics these days. I stop my subscriptions a good 10 years ago or more as the new wave of editor/writers finally managed to get there way into books that had managed to avoid many of the wide sweeping changes and crossovers that had already been happening for decades at that point as they were trying to remain true to the feeling of the books instead of changing to try to attract a larger demographic. Plus comics were getting just too damn expensive. (It is a comic book. I don't need some heavy weight cover, glossy pages inside, etc. I was fine with the newsprint ... baxter paper was as far as it needed to go if that meant keeping the costs down.)

 

[TTRPGWhiz]

It never made any sense for Batman to be in the JLA, and not just for 'power scaling' reasons. About the only good excuse for him being there is to study the metas up close and learn their weaknesses.

[Billbailey96]

19 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

 

We have two different sets of things going on here. The street-level superhero(s) and team-up books with much more powerful heroes.

For the most part, a street-level superhero (even duo or team) are generally not going to fight intergalactic invasions or pandimensional threats.

JLA (and JSA, etc.) combine heroes of multiple levels. The team books tend to bring together the most popular characters regardless of how powerful they are and tries to balance the threat to those that are in the team.

 

With your example of JLA, we have power-levels from Batman to Superman to begin with. Batman (at least back in the day) always tended to be the "brains" behind the JLA (forget the fact that Superman is supposed to have a super-brain and can calculate things at super fast speeds). Batman wasn't going to be able to punch/kick/gadget to defeat intergalactic opponents but he was able to plan a strategy for the others to use to defeat the foe. Same kind of thing goes for the JSA, if Green Lantern, Doctor Fate, and the Spectre have their hands full with an opponent, it is unlikely that Wild Cat is going to be able to punch the enemy unconscious.

In these kind of team books, they used to try to balance the story to give each character something to do instead of putting them in too far over their heads (unless it was a setup for someone else to come rescue them).

 

I don't even know where they have gotten to on all of this in the comics these days. I stop my subscriptions a good 10 years ago or more as the new wave of editor/writers finally managed to get there way into books that had managed to avoid many of the wide sweeping changes and crossovers that had already been happening for decades at that point as they were trying to remain true to the feeling of the books instead of changing to try to attract a larger demographic. Plus comics were getting just too damn expensive. (It is a comic book. I don't need some heavy weight cover, glossy pages inside, etc. I was fine with the newsprint ... baxter paper was as far as it needed to go if that meant keeping the costs down.)

 

You make some good points here and I will admit your knowledge of comic books is better than mine. 

[BrandX]

On 6/12/2025 at 1:35 PM, TTRPGWhiz said:

It never made any sense for Batman to be in the JLA, and not just for 'power scaling' reasons. About the only good excuse for him being there is to study the metas up close and learn their weaknesses.

 

Agreed.  Especially the more we see he creates newer and more powerful tech, but then goes back to Gotham and he powers himself down.  Makes no sense.

[Techwright]

On 6/12/2025 at 12:12 PM, Billbailey96 said:

One thing I think is a problem with super-hero stories, particularly ones about street level superheroes is a matter of scale. The hero themselves are able to handle thugs and the lower tier super villains but due to matters of popularity are often forced into situations outside of the scope of their abilities. (Batman being on the Justice League fighting galactic threats is a good example.) What is yall's opinion of this?

I've said this for years.  But I'll agree  with the others: Batman is on the JLA for his brain.

 

What I know of Marvel Comics seems to back this up.  I'm always interested in the street-level guys, particularly if they've one power that can be utilized in a number of interesting ways.  So some character like Spider-Man or Daredevil usually works.    It's when we get to the Fantastic Four that I have issues.  Let me qualify by saying I like the characters.  I really enjoy the characters.  Ben Grimm and Johnny Storm annoying each other like brothers works for me.  It's the situations these four are always in that annoys me.  What I call the "Phenomenal Cosmic Power" scale stories.  Literally the only buff on the team that stands any chance against opponents of this scale is Reed Richards' intellect, and its whatever the writers make of it for the scenario.  And yet the team keep taking on the baddies that are able to level worlds.  It's been a breaking of the suspension of belief repeatedly for me, and I sometimes wonder if it is part of the reason F4 films struggle.

 

Every once in a while, though, there's a cosmic level story that works with a street-level super.  Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. season 5 had one.  Without giving too much away, the season starts with the revelation that the core team has been pulled most of a century forward in time, to find Earth literally shattered, and the remnants of humanity clinging to existence on a fragment of the ruined planet.  The hero Quake,  who can tap into natural vibrational frequencies around her, is shocked to hear that the survivors believe she was the one who tore the planet apart.  Up until that point, the mightiest vibration she'd unleashed had created an avalanche on an uninhabited mountainside.  So the scenario was basically a powerful street-level super hearing that somehow she scaled up far beyond her previous best and shattered the planet.   The shock and mystery behind that, including what might have triggered her, drove the story pretty well.  But I see that as an exception.

[BrandX]

13 hours ago, Techwright said:

I've said this for years.  But I'll agree  with the others: Batman is on the JLA for his brain.

 

What I know of Marvel Comics seems to back this up.  I'm always interested in the street-level guys, particularly if they've one power that can be utilized in a number of interesting ways.  So some character like Spider-Man or Daredevil usually works.    It's when we get to the Fantastic Four that I have issues.  Let me qualify by saying I like the characters.  I really enjoy the characters.  Ben Grimm and Johnny Storm annoying each other like brothers works for me.  It's the situations these four are always in that annoys me.  What I call the "Phenomenal Cosmic Power" scale stories.  Literally the only buff on the team that stands any chance against opponents of this scale is Reed Richards' intellect, and its whatever the writers make of it for the scenario.  And yet the team keep taking on the baddies that are able to level worlds.  It's been a breaking of the suspension of belief repeatedly for me, and I sometimes wonder if it is part of the reason F4 films struggle.

 

Every once in a while, though, there's a cosmic level story that works with a street-level super.  Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. season 5 had one.  Without giving too much away, the season starts with the revelation that the core team has been pulled most of a century forward in time, to find Earth literally shattered, and the remnants of humanity clinging to existence on a fragment of the ruined planet.  The hero Quake,  who can tap into natural vibrational frequencies around her, is shocked to hear that the survivors believe she was the one who tore the planet apart.  Up until that point, the mightiest vibration she'd unleashed had created an avalanche on an uninhabited mountainside.  So the scenario was basically a powerful street-level super hearing that somehow she scaled up far beyond her previous best and shattered the planet.   The shock and mystery behind that, including what might have triggered her, drove the story pretty well.  But I see that as an exception.

 

It's one of the reasons I like some characters like Gambit.  Street level hero shown that he can be so much more powerful, but it's kept in check.  He may be a little different, as they may have an issue getting him back to the Omega level, but we know it was there.