Koopak

I'll manually review for you. Edit: Runs checkout, grey icon in question is Kheldian's Grace, it applies a buff on you the same way Scrapper's Strikes does. A good point, ill update both posts tonight to highlight the necessary areas. Edit: Updated

There appears to be a bug in the current version of mids that keeps you from pasting data chunks into mids. I've reported the issue already, and it will be fixed in the next update. In the mean time if you have a build you want, dm me and ill happily pull it from archives and send you the file.

Bounty Posted! Prize: 1 billion influence Poster: @Bionic_Flea Task: Post the best pylon/dummy time under Division 4 + additional rules of any player for the month of June. Post your results here: Clear Speed Leaderboards (runs submitted in this thread will be accepted provided they meet submission standards) Division 4 Rules: Additional Rules: Start Date/Time: 00:00 UTC, June 7st 2024 See in your timezone here! End Date/Time: 00:00 UTC, July 7st 2024 See in your timezone here! (In the links look in the non bold text with your location in it, if anyone has a better translation method, let me know.) Runs on the test server are valid provided they do not make use of any changes currently being tested, or the changes used are promoted to live.

Bounty Posted! Prize: 1 billion influence Poster: @Bionic_Flea Task: Post the best pylon/dummy time under Division 4 + additional rules of any player for the month of June. Post your results here: Clear Speed Leaderboards Division 4 Rules: Additional Rules: Start Date/Time: 00:00 UTC, June 7st 2024 See in your timezone here! End Date/Time: 00:00 UTC, July 7st 2024 See in your timezone here! (In the links look in the non bold text with your location in it, if anyone has a better translation method, let me know.) Runs on the test server are valid provided they do not make use of any changes currently being tested, or the changes used are promoted to live.

So its been a few days and I haven't received a lot of feedback on my offered options to try and make more people happy here. I'd really appreciate some give and take on this topic so that we can find a solution that works best rather than just expecting one side to cave to the other.

We can add that as a requirement to the bounty and just list the times under D4 if that sounds good?

I need to try out said AE and out some thought into it but I wouldn't be completely opposed. I'd wanna keep current divisions 0, 1, 4, and 5 at minimum. 0 and 1 are differing flavors of anything goes and 5 is what I got when asking if any rule set would be something the dev team would like to see 2, 3, and 6 are while somewhat interesting are mostly there to address many people's concerns and opinions on what is acceptable.

It occurs to me that I am brain dead. That's literally division 4. If the goal is to mirror 4star that's exactly what the division standard is and those TF settings mirror

So this is an excellent tool for both Divisions 3 and 5. 3 matches the currently displayed settings, 5 would be setting this to no incarnates and simply not using temps, but doesnt solve for Aura of Mot and its ilk. Division 3 would be the no temp powers setting and would be fine. Would you be happy with posting the bounty under one of those? if so which one?

Addressing first Videra's time, I feel as if a massive bit of context is missed every time this is brought up. It is treated as if this time is a permanent fixture, in truth how long Videra's ranking as top time lasts is however long it takes for someone to take a superior dpa AT and put some effort into it under the same rules. Further I believe I addressed this concern with my willingness to omit Division 1 results from the short list that this Best in show comes from. If simply hiding Division 1 results from default views does not address the concern of player misinformation, I'd like to understand why. The source of confusion being raised only exists because prior to Videra's submissions no one had fully explored the limits of the ruleset. When questioned I stated that the signature summons did technically pass the standards I had established, and still stand by, for tools that can reasonably be used as part of a player's daily kit. We can all claim we never do, but claiming you never use an Elixer in WoW doesn't make it not a potentially optimal choice you can do every raid. At the time I simply chose to leave a decision for later as no one had yet used it. When Videra forced the issue with their time submissions, I was of course forced to establish a ruling. The reason we are even having this discussion comes down to the simple fact I disagree with a majority held opinion that data involving the Signature Summons is meaningless, in fact up to this point many had already critiqued the standards set, as well as those of prior pylon threads, for including various things at all. What is immensely frustrating here is that this group think opinion has no data to back it up, and amounts to 'this is a powerful tool i don't like'. Even the arguments for why its an invalid data point fall flat. To directly answer you question and point Lauciana, which I want to again thank you for being one of the people who has always maintained an earnest tone and even communication even when we disagree completely, here is the logic behind Division 1. If you feel it would be better to explain the goals of each division in the OP id be happy to add that. Division 1 and the original rule set before divisions was derived from a gap in the player base knowledge as I see it. Sure anyone can tell you that the various tools, including the Signature Summons, are potent and serve to increase dps on all ATs, what we don't have information on is by how much, or what sets synergies with them best. As a simple example, the fact that Beldath's petless mastermind was able to post a time competitive with Division 2 times due to not only the potency of Recluse, but also the synergy of Cold Domination. While I'm sure most of us are abundantly aware of Cold Domination's power, having a time that clearly shows that is a valuable data point and I'm very glad they provided it, even if it was as part of an argument against the very rules. This datapoint also serves to show, with a single player, the impact Cold Domination has in team environments, as Recluse is the closest thing to a second player one can have without actually using two characters. I obviously expect most of what is found in Division 1 to map to community expectation, in fact I expect most of what is found in EVERY division to mostly map to expectation. Baring updates that change the status quo, I will be very surprised to see a non bio armor melee take top spot for instance. However without exploring the limits, we simply cannot know, especially as pet behavior falls into the category of having to many inconsistencies to accurately model on paper as would be my usual approach.

So now that I'm back at my PC finally. I want to follow up a bit. I am a little frustrated that there was little to no response when i specifically asked for feedback on the divisions themselves, but Ill take having it now. I think its important to recognize that we aren't all going to agree on what a singular good rule set is. What usually happens is what little consensus is reached is essentially the lowest common denominator. More people are willing to accept a rule set that bans things not directly tied to their character's express build than are not so the end result is essentially around where the Scrapper thread landed, and I'm not oblivious to the reasons why. The thing is, I don't agree with that standard being universal. There are lot of good arguments for it, there are also arguments I can, and have made in the past in the opposite. Rather than retreading them or arguing points I haven't before in this thread, I want to try and find a better solution here, a compromise. I value data in essentially every Division that currently exists, and have plans to collect for each of them, and yes that will be a long ass process. I can't simply generate the data by doing runs myself exclusively either. You may have noticed I haven't posted a single entry since before the bounties started in earnest with the exception of having gotten really caught up in optimizing the Sentinel run. Thus my goal has been to outsource the project, and since, on average, getting people to run these tests has always been a chore, an incentive became the only way. While I view this as a collaborative project, on some level it is me who is doing the data tabulation and management, putting up the prize money, and promoting the project. I think it is only fair that if there are tests I'd like to explore more than some or even most of the community, that I do so. However as I said I see this as a collaborative project, so let me run though some options that have come to mind and my stance on them. Things I am 100% willing to do right now even if I don't personally like them: create divisions modify the way data is presented to hide disliked divisions from casual perusal mix up the divisions for future bounties rather than focus on populating just one at a time Increase or decrease bounty windows Change explanation or formatting of the OP to help with parsing the information. Mix in other challenge types sooner than planned. Change the short list leader board in the OP itself to not include certain divisions. Help host literally anyone else's bounties. Thing I am able to potentially be convinced on: removing a division from the list if I can be convinced of a good enough argument for it (note Division 1 is not going to be an easy sell as you all have already seen) Add a new challenge type (if i see value and people show interest) increase or decrease bounty prize pools (with the understanding it may effect post rates) mix in bounties targeting specific sets sooner than planed Things I am not willing to budge on: Removing existing entries unless removing the division as a whole (Even then id like to preserve the runs in a separate sheet.) Remove divisions entirely or cut them down to less than 4-5 as I see at minimum that many categories that have significant value.

I have some more thoughts to share but am just checking from my phone. @Bionic_Flea In particular id like to explore your suggestion some tonight as it may lead to a modification of an existing division, and the ability to apply the rules via the TF contacts is actually a really good point that may allow us to also remove unclearable temp powers like Aura of Mot. Id be very happy to host your bounty once we settle its setup. A common trend I'm seeing is mostly just a distaste for D1 drowning out other entries. So allow me to ask a follow up question. Would making the default view of the sheet not include Division 1 and Division 0 be an acceptable middle ground for people?

I'm not sure what you mean prove, this time only beats one time in its Division, and that is a fire farm build that didn't use Geas. Honestly this mostly shows how potent Cold Dom is, I honestly wouldn't have expected such a performance even under Division 1 rules for a petless Master Mind, so thank you for the time, this is exactly the kind of thing id love to see more of. I would very much like to see a Demons/Cold go all in with pets, and even a Division 2 of the same, just for comparison. Moving on to the actual criticism being repeatedly brought up. Assuming everyone here is engaging in good faith, I want to ask two simple questions. 1. Why does the Division system not address your concern? 2. What would you do differently?

Working on Reverse engineering your build from screenshots so it can be made official and you seemed to have missed the Epic pet. If you want to make the mids build yourself and drop the file here, that would save me some work.

Now on a lighter note, congratulations to @Shin Magmus for winning the Brute competition. I will be in touch here on the forums to sort your reward. And without further to do and a bit late. Bounty Posted! Prize: 2 billion influence Task: Post the best pylon/dummy time under Division 1 rules of any CrabSpider for the month of June. Read the rules and regulations for Division 1 and post your results here: Clear Speed Leaderboards Start Date/Time: 00:00 UTC, June 1st 2024 See in your timezone here! End Date/Time: 00:00 UTC, July 1st 2024 See in your timezone here! (In the links look in the non bold text with your location in it, if anyone has a better translation method, let me know.) Runs on the test server are valid provided they do not make use of any changes currently being tested, or the changes used are promoted to live.

While others seem to disagree with this point I actually want to address it because I feel you actually have one. First and for most, my critique of other sources of data elsewhere is multilayered. To sum up so I'm not writing a manifesto (and likely fail as I am a wind bag), essentially my view is a lot of other data sources fall into any number of several major failings. Failing to include details of methodology, examples being not sharing builds. Its been common for people in the community to make claims but not back them. Failing to isolate variables, Trapdoor is a perfect example of this, the mission would be pretty decent if it was on a map that introduced less inconsistency in the tester themselves, in the form of navigating awkward geometry. However it also is over valued as an example of 'normal play' partly because of the boss fight at the end which isn't really reflective of any boss type normally encountered in any other type of content. Failing to account for all of the options available to the player. This is where what is now called Division 1 came from. We can sit here and go in circles all day about how much temp powers homogenize the results and trend them toward obfuscating meaningful set differences, and how they aren't representative of how any one of us might play. However, the fact that the average player doesn't CHOOSE to play using all the tools available in Division 1, doesn't change the fact that they DO have that option. The logic that temp powers shouldn't be used in these competitions can, and has, been used to argue that epic powers, pool powers, and incarnate powers, shouldn't be considered when comparing sets. I patently disagree with that philosophy. If you want to choose to play sub-optimally, that's your choice, but its not reflective of the nature of the game itself, which is what most interests me. Failing to include others in the process so as to increase the odds of successfully exploring all options. As an example, Ston's work is great, but unless people start bulk mirroring the man's commitment, then we cant be very certain there isn't something he overlooked. Failing to record the data in an easy to digest and explore format. This is my main concern with the Scrapper Thread. My goal with this project is to address all of the above, and I feel the mention of Trapdoor in comparison to a pylon test is missing the mark. In terms of a one to one comparison I would never compare a Pylon time to Trapdoor times, they are different tests of different intended metrics. The Office Mission Sim is the more accurate mirror but I haven't yet moved to push for more times from that. I feel that I accomplish those goals here, but if you have specific critiques regarding them I am happy to hear them. I feel your arguments are understandable, but mostly come from a frustration that the bounties being posted do not fit what you personally consider acceptable standards. That is fine, we don't have to agree on what good pylon standards look like. In fact, the decision to implement Divisions was specifically to address this issue. However when it comes to the bounties I can only fund so many so often, and I haven't been able to commit to the kind of income I normally would have due to IRL commitments. I could stop Division 1 bounties, and start doing other Divisions tonight, yes, but I started with the intent of doing a full round of each AT, and don't want to stop that just to address the fact that some people think Division 1 is stinky poo poo. My advice to anyone with issues with Division 1 is either post your own bounty, or wait patiently for when I finish my personal interest in Division 1.

Just some points regarding the recent burst of posts decrying the rule set. Divisions are open to expansion. Additional challenges are planned but i only have so much reward money and it takes time to make. Given the game's economy, 2 bil feels pretty light as is. You don't need to be participating in a bounty to post, please, post, theres plenty of rulesets to use and you can even use your own. The sheet is designed to be easy to filter for the data YOU care about. ANYONE can post a bounty. Put up the money and the challenge and i will add it to OP and help signal boost to get participants.

Hey gang, I am pushing to gather data and builds for a new and improved pylon and clear speed sheet. To that effect I am posting regular bounties to encourage competition and push the limit. Thus without further to do. Bounty Posted! Prize: 2 billion influence Task: Post the best pylon/dummy time under Division 1 rules of any CrabSpider for the month of June. Read the rules and regulations for Division 1 and post your results here: Clear Speed Leaderboards (posts made in this thread will be processed if they meet the requirements listed.) Start Date/Time: 00:00 UTC, June 1st 2024 See in your timezone here! End Date/Time: 00:00 UTC, July 1st 2024 See in your timezone here! (In the links look in the non bold text with your location in it, if anyone has a better translation method, let me know.) Runs on the test server are valid provided they do not make use of any changes currently being tested, or the changes used are promoted to live.

Thank you, and not to worry i already reported the issue to Loaded Camel (The team behind Mids Reborn). I'll get the sheet updated tonight.

If you'd like to post the build file here or send it to me on the forums, either would work. It helps to have it done here for tracking. Either way the issue needs to be resolved as the datachunk is the most practical way to store the builds directly in the sheet so Mids needs to be able to import them.

To correct for others. All competitions thus far have been in what is now called Division 1 rules, thus: Backup Radio - This is allowed in Division 1 but also moot as it will not attack the pylon. If it did the run would class as a 'Burst' run. Shivan Shard - This is not allowed in Division 1 as you cannot stockpile them easily or in sufficent quantity to make a strong argument for it being something one can keep in their kit all the time. Signature Summons - These are allowed in Division 1, and do NOT class as a 'Burst' run as they have a theoretical uptime of 100% Envenomed Daggers - This is allowed in Divisions 1 and 2 Offense Amplifier - This is allowed in Divisions 1 and 2 Hybrid Incarnates - These are allowed in Divisions 1, 2, 3 and 4

@Shin Magmus Currently dealing with a bug preventing import via datachunk at this time. If I cant get it fixed before the deadline on Friday your time will still go up after i get it pulled in via an older mids build and verified. Additionally Divisions are officially implemented, I am still working on improving the accessibility and readability of the data, but from now on all runs will require a Division and Recommended flag for submission, please refer to OP for guidelines.

Well the idea of div 2 is the same minus pets but you bring up exactly the kinda point is like to see more feedback on with regards to division creation. I have no problems with a crap load of divisions so if you have suggestions please feel free to share them

Couple reasons. One is just lores being banned due to tradition more than anything and me overlooking signature summons. I initially expected they would be blocked by the general outline I had for temp powers that the temp power needs to be readily available and practical to be used as part of normal day to day play. Now that that Pandora's box has been opened and I've realized that signature summons DO meet those criteria, I'm allowing them on the possibility that, like epic pets, one or more of them will have unique synergy with one set or another. To this effect I'm implementing a division system with the current rules being division 1 while most all runs done before the first signature summon run counting as division 2

@Ston Rules will remain the same, in the interest of comparisons, I'm working on a division system, see the spoilers section on the OP. Nothing is concrete yet but I have a good outline I'll probably make official in the next few days.