Koopak

Just a few days left, get your times in!

Sorry about the delays will be following up and announcing the winners and next challenge tonight.

Whether the hybrid is active or not is part of the current submission requirement and is tracked independently of the Division. You can filter the results of the sheet based on whether the hybrid was used active or not.

Coming up on the end of week 2 and America's Angel has established a challenging lead! Who can beat her!?

End of weak one, and Americas Angel takes a commanding lead in the Flea Cup!

Sheet updated. AA Claims the lead in the crab bounty and her lead in the Flea Cup grows

Understandable, however a workable alternative is as Flea has done, posting your own bounty, since then you get to set the standards for acceptance. Ill take any times i deem valid but if it doesn't meet the sponsor standard, I'm not gonna sit here and demand they pay up to someone who didn't meet their standards.

Which powers did you do the proc swaps on specifically? I'd like to mirror and add to the sheet.

When running a project like this, certain judgment calls have to be made. I seriously considered necessitating video proof from the beginning. However not everyone has the ability to or the willingness to gobble their harddrive with recordings then make sure to splice out the desired portion if necessary, then upload to a video hosting website, just for a pylon time. In the interest of keeping the door open and more information coming in, I chose to not require, but strongly encourage video proof. As such, yes, that opens submissions up to attempted cheating more than if video proof was required. However I choose to believe that only a very petty person would attempt to cheat a pylon test, and that any attempts at cheating will be found out by build review, prospective performance analysis, and when provided, screenshots. To cover AA's time specifically, that time is 100% within the capabilities of the Peacebringer AT, I've said as much many times because I have actually put in the time to model the AT and rotation. The lack of fotg is only a minor limiting factor due to how inconsistent its proc rate would be, the recharge hits the necessary 2 tick goal while Ageless is up along with every other buff, and the run is short enough for the decay to not be a limiting factor as it would only fall below the threshold sometime after 30 or 60 seconds. If a trustworthy individual wishes they may take her build and attempt replication to try and gather evidence otherwise. Until then I consider the run valid for the sheet. Whether it is valid for the Flea Cup is up to @Bionic_Flea

It getting spicy in here, AA takes the lead.

That puts Lauciana in the lead for the Flea cup folks!

I'll manually review for you. Edit: Runs checkout, grey icon in question is Kheldian's Grace, it applies a buff on you the same way Scrapper's Strikes does. A good point, ill update both posts tonight to highlight the necessary areas. Edit: Updated

There appears to be a bug in the current version of mids that keeps you from pasting data chunks into mids. I've reported the issue already, and it will be fixed in the next update. In the mean time if you have a build you want, dm me and ill happily pull it from archives and send you the file.

Bounty Posted! Prize: 1 billion influence Poster: @Bionic_Flea Task: Post the best pylon/dummy time under Division 4 + additional rules of any player for the month of June. Post your results here: Clear Speed Leaderboards (runs submitted in this thread will be accepted provided they meet submission standards) Division 4 Rules: Additional Rules: Start Date/Time: 00:00 UTC, June 7st 2024 See in your timezone here! End Date/Time: 00:00 UTC, July 7st 2024 See in your timezone here! (In the links look in the non bold text with your location in it, if anyone has a better translation method, let me know.) Runs on the test server are valid provided they do not make use of any changes currently being tested, or the changes used are promoted to live.

Bounty Posted! Prize: 1 billion influence Poster: @Bionic_Flea Task: Post the best pylon/dummy time under Division 4 + additional rules of any player for the month of June. Post your results here: Clear Speed Leaderboards Division 4 Rules: Additional Rules: Start Date/Time: 00:00 UTC, June 7st 2024 See in your timezone here! End Date/Time: 00:00 UTC, July 7st 2024 See in your timezone here! (In the links look in the non bold text with your location in it, if anyone has a better translation method, let me know.) Runs on the test server are valid provided they do not make use of any changes currently being tested, or the changes used are promoted to live.

So its been a few days and I haven't received a lot of feedback on my offered options to try and make more people happy here. I'd really appreciate some give and take on this topic so that we can find a solution that works best rather than just expecting one side to cave to the other.

We can add that as a requirement to the bounty and just list the times under D4 if that sounds good?

I need to try out said AE and out some thought into it but I wouldn't be completely opposed. I'd wanna keep current divisions 0, 1, 4, and 5 at minimum. 0 and 1 are differing flavors of anything goes and 5 is what I got when asking if any rule set would be something the dev team would like to see 2, 3, and 6 are while somewhat interesting are mostly there to address many people's concerns and opinions on what is acceptable.

It occurs to me that I am brain dead. That's literally division 4. If the goal is to mirror 4star that's exactly what the division standard is and those TF settings mirror

So this is an excellent tool for both Divisions 3 and 5. 3 matches the currently displayed settings, 5 would be setting this to no incarnates and simply not using temps, but doesnt solve for Aura of Mot and its ilk. Division 3 would be the no temp powers setting and would be fine. Would you be happy with posting the bounty under one of those? if so which one?

Addressing first Videra's time, I feel as if a massive bit of context is missed every time this is brought up. It is treated as if this time is a permanent fixture, in truth how long Videra's ranking as top time lasts is however long it takes for someone to take a superior dpa AT and put some effort into it under the same rules. Further I believe I addressed this concern with my willingness to omit Division 1 results from the short list that this Best in show comes from. If simply hiding Division 1 results from default views does not address the concern of player misinformation, I'd like to understand why. The source of confusion being raised only exists because prior to Videra's submissions no one had fully explored the limits of the ruleset. When questioned I stated that the signature summons did technically pass the standards I had established, and still stand by, for tools that can reasonably be used as part of a player's daily kit. We can all claim we never do, but claiming you never use an Elixer in WoW doesn't make it not a potentially optimal choice you can do every raid. At the time I simply chose to leave a decision for later as no one had yet used it. When Videra forced the issue with their time submissions, I was of course forced to establish a ruling. The reason we are even having this discussion comes down to the simple fact I disagree with a majority held opinion that data involving the Signature Summons is meaningless, in fact up to this point many had already critiqued the standards set, as well as those of prior pylon threads, for including various things at all. What is immensely frustrating here is that this group think opinion has no data to back it up, and amounts to 'this is a powerful tool i don't like'. Even the arguments for why its an invalid data point fall flat. To directly answer you question and point Lauciana, which I want to again thank you for being one of the people who has always maintained an earnest tone and even communication even when we disagree completely, here is the logic behind Division 1. If you feel it would be better to explain the goals of each division in the OP id be happy to add that. Division 1 and the original rule set before divisions was derived from a gap in the player base knowledge as I see it. Sure anyone can tell you that the various tools, including the Signature Summons, are potent and serve to increase dps on all ATs, what we don't have information on is by how much, or what sets synergies with them best. As a simple example, the fact that Beldath's petless mastermind was able to post a time competitive with Division 2 times due to not only the potency of Recluse, but also the synergy of Cold Domination. While I'm sure most of us are abundantly aware of Cold Domination's power, having a time that clearly shows that is a valuable data point and I'm very glad they provided it, even if it was as part of an argument against the very rules. This datapoint also serves to show, with a single player, the impact Cold Domination has in team environments, as Recluse is the closest thing to a second player one can have without actually using two characters. I obviously expect most of what is found in Division 1 to map to community expectation, in fact I expect most of what is found in EVERY division to mostly map to expectation. Baring updates that change the status quo, I will be very surprised to see a non bio armor melee take top spot for instance. However without exploring the limits, we simply cannot know, especially as pet behavior falls into the category of having to many inconsistencies to accurately model on paper as would be my usual approach.

So now that I'm back at my PC finally. I want to follow up a bit. I am a little frustrated that there was little to no response when i specifically asked for feedback on the divisions themselves, but Ill take having it now. I think its important to recognize that we aren't all going to agree on what a singular good rule set is. What usually happens is what little consensus is reached is essentially the lowest common denominator. More people are willing to accept a rule set that bans things not directly tied to their character's express build than are not so the end result is essentially around where the Scrapper thread landed, and I'm not oblivious to the reasons why. The thing is, I don't agree with that standard being universal. There are lot of good arguments for it, there are also arguments I can, and have made in the past in the opposite. Rather than retreading them or arguing points I haven't before in this thread, I want to try and find a better solution here, a compromise. I value data in essentially every Division that currently exists, and have plans to collect for each of them, and yes that will be a long ass process. I can't simply generate the data by doing runs myself exclusively either. You may have noticed I haven't posted a single entry since before the bounties started in earnest with the exception of having gotten really caught up in optimizing the Sentinel run. Thus my goal has been to outsource the project, and since, on average, getting people to run these tests has always been a chore, an incentive became the only way. While I view this as a collaborative project, on some level it is me who is doing the data tabulation and management, putting up the prize money, and promoting the project. I think it is only fair that if there are tests I'd like to explore more than some or even most of the community, that I do so. However as I said I see this as a collaborative project, so let me run though some options that have come to mind and my stance on them. Things I am 100% willing to do right now even if I don't personally like them: create divisions modify the way data is presented to hide disliked divisions from casual perusal mix up the divisions for future bounties rather than focus on populating just one at a time Increase or decrease bounty windows Change explanation or formatting of the OP to help with parsing the information. Mix in other challenge types sooner than planned. Change the short list leader board in the OP itself to not include certain divisions. Help host literally anyone else's bounties. Thing I am able to potentially be convinced on: removing a division from the list if I can be convinced of a good enough argument for it (note Division 1 is not going to be an easy sell as you all have already seen) Add a new challenge type (if i see value and people show interest) increase or decrease bounty prize pools (with the understanding it may effect post rates) mix in bounties targeting specific sets sooner than planed Things I am not willing to budge on: Removing existing entries unless removing the division as a whole (Even then id like to preserve the runs in a separate sheet.) Remove divisions entirely or cut them down to less than 4-5 as I see at minimum that many categories that have significant value.

I have some more thoughts to share but am just checking from my phone. @Bionic_Flea In particular id like to explore your suggestion some tonight as it may lead to a modification of an existing division, and the ability to apply the rules via the TF contacts is actually a really good point that may allow us to also remove unclearable temp powers like Aura of Mot. Id be very happy to host your bounty once we settle its setup. A common trend I'm seeing is mostly just a distaste for D1 drowning out other entries. So allow me to ask a follow up question. Would making the default view of the sheet not include Division 1 and Division 0 be an acceptable middle ground for people?

I'm not sure what you mean prove, this time only beats one time in its Division, and that is a fire farm build that didn't use Geas. Honestly this mostly shows how potent Cold Dom is, I honestly wouldn't have expected such a performance even under Division 1 rules for a petless Master Mind, so thank you for the time, this is exactly the kind of thing id love to see more of. I would very much like to see a Demons/Cold go all in with pets, and even a Division 2 of the same, just for comparison. Moving on to the actual criticism being repeatedly brought up. Assuming everyone here is engaging in good faith, I want to ask two simple questions. 1. Why does the Division system not address your concern? 2. What would you do differently?

Working on Reverse engineering your build from screenshots so it can be made official and you seemed to have missed the Epic pet. If you want to make the mids build yourself and drop the file here, that would save me some work.