Pbuckley818

Ooh I like that, they can buff themselves unlike lot of other Supports, but their own self buffs are weaker. While their group buffs are better. That's a nice tool. The point I am trying to get at is that we won't know exactly what the best way to implement the AT is until we start testing different idea's and numbers. We all need to be ready to kill our darlings. As an artist I am acutely aware of this. Sometimes the thing you have in your head is beyond the scope of reality, maybe it will be your lack of aability, maybe the tools, or other parameters you must work with just won't allow it. This is why we all need to be skeptical of other peoples desighns but also to look for solutions, if you have noticed I have tried suggesting things to improve the design. Hmmm... Maybe someone needs to make a thread, containing a check list for the different possible idea's that should be tested when trying to implement this AT. I feel like that could be very useful especially when It get's down to the grindstone.

Ok so we are looking at Defender numbers for damage, that relies on placate... Now I really need to see this in action, because that does not sound fun at all. Defender is hard enough to play as a ranged character. Yet Protector still has take a hit to support, just due to Mez protection and an absorb shield? Are you at least making sure all their support powers can help... Tell me how they generate that Absorb Shield again? Was it just on a timer, beceause I think I have an idea to make this work. But it would be kind of powerful, just worth thinking about. What if the absorb shield reginerates a little bit every time you use a Primary Power? No that might be overkill... Just a thought for something to try.

So getting a defensive power to replace their T1 from their secondary? Or would it be in their primary? I feel like you'd want it in the Secondary but that would mean no attacks at level 1. Thane again it could be what they get in place of Confront/Placate, or even better they could get two powers in their melee owhich help to give them some survivability, Using the Stalker as a model for deciding what powers get removed. (Anything you losse for Assassin Strike you loose). This could also mean different melee's could get slightly different powers, so you could still have a sword and board Protector. Not to say they would just get Armor Powers or even get any at all just a thought. Odds are you'd want to do something fairly universal though.

Curious to why you believe that would be necessary. While we do need to be wary of power bloat. I fail to see how giving them a bit of armor makes them so much more powerfull that their damage needs to be dropped so low as to be uselss. They are already a melee AT and they would be loosing support in return for the defenses they get. Veats seem to work fine, and they have access to ranged attacks while your talking about dropping the damage to around the same as a Corrupter or a Defender anyways. Yet you believe granting them armor would require them to take an even bigger Damage hit? Have you tested this? Or is this pure theory? I feel like this is overthinking things a bit. I'd like to at least try getting a version of this working on the test server to look at the numbers and what values they really need to be set at before dismissing the notion out of hand. Keeping in mind that being in melee is inherently a nerf over being able to attack from a distance. At the same timeI worry that in order for your innate to function properly it would possibly have to be the most powerful innate in the game, possibly more so than Brutes Rage, or Masterminds Bodyguard system. basically giving them an armor powerset albeit a weeker one that they don't need to invest anything into. That being said I feel like we have two different end goals. Personally I would be fine with the AT ending up at around the same support levels of a VEAT or Mastermind, though preferably around the same level as a Controller. (I am imagining them at around a 6-7 on the games arbitrary statistics meter.) With damage around that of a Tank or Corruptor, and Survivability around that of a Stalker or Scrapper. But ultimately the numbers need to fall where they need to to keep the AT fun and the game balanced. Like I said I feel I like need to work on my own take beceause I really think we are going to need to see both options in action before deciding which one should be used.

Yeah I researched that, the Guradian is basically a gross mismatch of everything, somehow I feel I wouldn't be enjoy it.

It's true that many classes fight in melee often enough without Mez protection, but I think you are undervaluing how valuably being able to mez enemies before thye mez you can really be. As we are not building a control class this is not a counter in their tool belt. Furthermore many such classes do a bit more damage than this AT will be doing, meaning thjey can kill enemies much faster, another counter to Mez not in this AT's toolbelt. In short they need Mez protection because it is the only counter available to them without expanding the preview of the AT.

If your not going to give it defense powers you might be better off giving it tank level Hit Points. This might mitigate a little bit of the squishiness. Not sure about the innate at all. Maybe it could work a bit more like a rage that grants Def and/or Res buff, it dissipates as you take damage and increases as you use Primary Powers. From the sounds of it thouh I probably need ot keep working on my own version of the Protector. I don't like the idea of being forced to rely on placate. Figure I'll go ahead and try to get your feedback on what I am planning to do. The Following is from my Project Protector word doc. Primary: Protection (Defense/Support) The General idea here is to give a relatively even spread of Defense and Support Powers, preferably with as much overlap between the two as is possible (without making the Set inherently broken). As this is a Primary values will be a bit higher, but sense the abilities are split between defense and support this will inherently restrict the final values involved. That doesn’t just mean your going to get Tanker/Defender values with less utility/variety. The final Intent is an AT with Scrapper level Survival Values and Support Potential more comparable to Mastermind, or a VEAT, however, this is not set in stone. Of course, this is also the Primary for another reason, people seemed to get confused when it came to the original Protector, with many believing it to be a DPS AT, when in fact it is meant to be a Support/Off-Tank. Primary (Defense/Support) (This is a general layout of my methodology, of course it is only a loose outline, subject to shift and change on a case by case basis but it’s a solid starting place. See the following for examples below.) T1: Armor Power T2: Support Power T3: Hybrid Power T4: Support OR Armor Power T5: Support OR Armor Power T6: Hybrid Power T7: Support OR Armor Power T8: Support OR Armor Power T9: Hybrid Power Primary (Defense/Support) T1: Deflection- Toggle: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res (Smash, Lethal) T2: Battle Agility- Toggle: Self +DEF(Ranged, AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff) T3: Battle Tactics: Maneuvers- Toggle: PBAoE Team +DEF(All) T4: True Grit- Auto: Self +Res (Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative, Toxic), +Max Health T5: Battle Tactics: Assault- Toggle: PBAoE, Team +DMG Res(Taunt, Placate) T6: Rally- PBAoE, Team +Res (Disorient, Hold, Immobilize, Sleep, Fear, Confuse, Repel, Knockback, Def Debuff) T7: Battle Tactics: Leadership- Toggle PBAoE Team +ACC Res(Confuse, Fear) +Perception T8: Shield Charge- PBAoE, Superior DMG(Smash), Foe Knockdown, Self Teleport. T9: Battle Tactics: Interference- PBAoE, Foes -To Hit, -DMG, -Def.

Is your current idea to simply use the support Powersets, or to mix them with defensive sets?

Glad someone else said it before me. Frankly I think we need to start with VEAT stats and go from there, reduce the range in exchange for more support maybe. But we need to be very carefull, even if the class is a dedicated support it's support potency might have to be lower than a corrupters due to it probably getting Mez protection. Yet maybe not. As the fact that the class is fighting in melee is in and of itself enough of an excuse for mez protection.

If they get both they would be similar to tanks. Getting a powerful inherent that only really works in group content, and a minor, but useful inherent to make up for their real inherent being kind of selfless. Could be something like this. Disruption- The Protector (I wont give up on the name until the fat lady sings) uses their tactical prowess to disrupt enemies with whom they are actively engaged, whenever a Protector performs a successful melee attack with a melee power (Alternatively it could just be their Tier 1 Melee Power, just like the tanks.) they disrupt their opponent, reducing their damage output (or accuracy), and rendering them vulnerable to Opportunity Attacks from the Protectors Allies. Then again enabling Critical Hits for the entire party could be a bit potent, so they would either have to be like a lesser kind of critical hit, or a VERY unlikely. I do like the idea but it would definitely ave to be heavily play tested. My Idea was something like a Rage bar that filled whenever you used support abilities, and reduced whene you used Melee Attacks. So as to keep the Melee/Support focused on group support while they melee'd as I know the melee playstyle has a tendancy to encourage tunnel vision.

Trying to avoid just making a VEAT I already have one I enjoy it, but I want something a little different.

Oh, sorry to waste both of our time then.

At least I actually engaged with your argument. Though to be honest I cannot see any other interpretation. Your use of the concept of plot contrivance feels like nothing more than an attempt to avoid engaging with an alternative viewpoint. For instance Nightcrawler can only save someone at the nick of time if such a thing is necessary, however it is established that he has trained to do so repeatedly in the danger room, he is constantly looking out for his allies, has the ability to teleport, and amazing reflexes, that is not a contrivance, it is as natural as naked. Just beceause soemthing is fantastic does not mean it is inherently a plot contrivance, Furthermore he constantly uses his ability to get people into a better position to attack, or to direct enemy fire to another part of the battlefield by goading an enemy to attack him before Bamfing away, simultaneously protecting his allies, and opening his foe up for an attack. Heck he is often a means of transport for his allies, which the Kinetic is famous for being able to do. This si the vast majority of what Nightcrawler does otside of sneak attacks which he uses quite often as well as being a martial artist, and a swordsmen. But beceause some of what he does is plot dependent that doesn't matter? Speaking fo Goading I have an idea of giving the class a Confront like taunt called Goad that grants a -def, -res debuff to the target. The taunt aspect could be removed, though I would miss it. Essentially it would act similar to how tanks get bruising, without giving the same mechanic to another class. I also like the idea of them getting a Taunt and a Placate, that sounds like fun!

I understand now. Sense Ravens healing ability can only come up when someone is injured she is a dark/dark Dominator. Sense Sue Storms ability to stop bullets with her shild can only come up whene someone needs to be protected, she is an Energy/Energy Blaster. Ect., Ect. Why do we even have supports in this game?

They exist for players to customize their character beyond the scope afforded to them by the AT system. Filling in the gaps left by the strengencies of the system by affording players the ability to access powers that the Dev's felt should not be too AT dependent, while making sure not to allow anyone to step on anyone else's toes, or make a super AT, by limiting the potency of powers that allow the player to access the abilties of another role. I.E. Gap fillers. Most characters powers only get employed when convenient to the plot though. The Super Strength characters are often infamous for this. It's really silly to act like because someone's powers are plot dependent they are not a core part of the character. Imagine if I made the claim that beceause supermans super strength is very plot dependent he should actually be a Energy blast/Invulnerability Sentinel.

Yet these are much more potent and central to the respective characters than the power pool power ever could be to a CoH character. They exist in order to simulate things that the dev's knew would not be available for charecters to make with the AT system at launch. They are by their very nature gap fillers, so of course the charecters that you cannot make with the AT system would more closely resemble the power pools. While I cannot pretend to know the mind's of the dev's I think that may be why Leadership was not a Buff/Dubuff power to begin with. Beceause while it is a support power it is often employed by characters more akin to Scrappers, Blaster, or Tankers In the comics.

I highly disagree tons of characters in comics have some level of innate invulnerability, even Spiderman. So the Thor argument is mute. He's a melee guy so he has a level of invulnerability, his Hammer and his ability to control storms are his signature abilities. Besides do you really want to make the argument that that Loki would be a tanker? Because if your going to stand by that argument that's what you going to have to contend with. Captain America, merely a scrapper? Your ignoring half his character, half his whole shtick is all about how he uses his wits and charisma to support his allies and give them the strength to carry on. Nightcrawler you might argue is a Stalker, but only if you ignore 75% of the things he does on the battlefield. Which is mostly repositioning allies (and sometimes foes), distracting enemies, and relaying information and objects. Sure he's a great fighter, but that's hardly his whole thing, heck half the time he engages directly it's either a surprise attack, or a ploy of some sort. Black Canary is also Primarily a Martial Artist and while capable of doing ALOT of damage with her voice it's more often a device for distractions, incapacitation, ect. But I'll admit that ones a bit of a stretch.

I gave quite a few examples already. Captain America is as famous for the way he wields his tactical brilliance and sheer unassailable charisma to bolster his allies and intimidate his enemies, as he is for beating them up with his shield. Thor controls the battlefield with storms, while wading into battle with his mighty hammer, Nightcrawler bamfs around the battlefield aiding allies and hindering foes, as much as he plays at being Errol Flynn. these all three really iconic characters and all of them fit this archetype. On top of that melee support is a highly popular but rarily delivered upon playstyle in MMORPG's and it's omission is often felt keenly by those who love it. The fact that CoH added 12 archetypes into the game a good 4/5th's of which pretty much doing the same thing, before we got VEAT's is absurd. And even then they can be built into about half a dozen other things. Yeah that's pretty glaring. It's just so common place for people who prefer this playstyle to get shafted that people rarely notice.

Well their does seem to be some demand for an Assault Primary, personally I don't get the appeal, but I suppose I understand the demand. I just don't want it taking the melee/buff spot. But Yeah Melee+Buff/DeBuff is a glaring omission to the roster.

What Zepp Said. In addition their are Superhero's who fit into this slot. Captain America, and Tho r(Debatable), come to mind, Iron Fist, Nightcrawler (depending on whos writing him), Not a lot in DC But I am pretty sure Dove of Hawk and Dove fits in this role, Black Canary (Arguable she is at least some kind of Sonic/MA, as she is pretty famous for being a ridiculously good Martial Artist) and I am pretty sure their are others that sit just outside of my knowledge and/or recollection as well. And even if that where not the case the crossover between those that want to provide group support and those who want to punch the bad guys in the face seems to be large enough to create a demand for such an AT. That being said the Volunteer Devs who run Homecoming are quite busy and I feel like if people in the community would be more willing to work on the project and produce something for the test server it would work out much better. Actually no most of these classes are turned into ranged classes in everything ourside of D&D, where Clerics can be built melee, and Support Druids are Ranged Spell Casters with a melee form. Wow is the one that comes closest, but to get the DnD Cleric experience you need to play a Paladin Healer not a Priest, and the way Druids are done in wow you have to choose between melee or support. Melee Support Classes are incredibly hard to come by, but their is always a high demand for them among those who like to support their group. It's a playstyle a lot of people love, but never get to enjoy. OCCASIONALLY you might see a Tank with a heal. Again though, I must remind you, even if this where not the case, it's still not a good argument against implementing such an AT. Just beceause other games have done something does not mean that it should not be done here. The simple answer to your final question is we don't, we don't need a Melee Support AT, just like we don't NEED TWO Tanks, TWO Melee DPS's, TWO CC Classes, TWO Devoted Support Classes, or any of the Elite Archetypes. Not counting Elite AT's which would be unfair as you don't really get to customize them, Frankly It wold be the Least redundant AT to be added sense the Dominator, which generally did add Something new to the table. But some people want one and provided it can be implemented properly their is no good argument to be had against enting the AT. Unless you want a "PURE" CoH experience, and if that's why you have an issue with the idea, boy do I have bad news for you. We are not talking about plopping a fantasy Paladin down into CoH, (Though in true CoH fashion such a character should be buildable) it would be an AT just like all the others, It would just hit people in close range while providing Group Buffs/Enemy Debuffs/Healing/ect. depending on the powerset. The only Danger is that it would be either Overtuned on release (unlikely as most people would be pushing for heavy nerfs for fear that it would outshine their darlings.) Or that giving a Support toon Mez Resist would completely nullify the use of all other Support AT's. For which I have only one reply Stalker, and Blaster have both been popular AT's sense launch with little to no issue, even though they both ostensibly fill the same niche, Heavy DPS AT. Nor is anyone advocating for the AT to just go into the game without thorough testing, or at least I hope not.

Ok So some posters have been getting a bit confused so I'll explain, a lot of you are pretty close to the mark, I wanted to pick a set with a select few "Defender Like" features, amd Maybe grab some of the Leadership Pools (Might wait for the update before grabbing Leadership stuff). I am not trying to turn a Tank into a VEAT or something, I mean If I wanted to do that I could get better results with Corruptor, Dominator, or Mastermind (Depending on which playstyle I wanted to emulate). Ultimately I settled on Shield/Street Justice, though I do see the marits of other Defense builds like Ice, or Rad I settled on shield Fairly Early as I enjoyed the Foe: -Dam debuff, and Team: +DeF buff, also Shield Charge is a ton of fun, though part of me still feels like I am sleeping on rad. As far as melee goes, Street is basically what I wanted, it's not as AoE as I'd like but it has a good range of Debuffs, CC, and good enough damage that I don't have to worry TOO much about it. The only big issue and it is a big Issue is a lack of AoE which is at least in part made up for by shield. The end goal is a "Paladin like" tank, a tank with a few support abilities, at least more than most other tanks. I also don't mean I want to be a healer, though part of the reason I kind of wish I had gone rad is so I'd have a Team Heal, that doesn't mean I have any intention of trying to force medicine into the build. I do however appreciate all the feedback I have been getting and would love to see more builds and build idea's from more experience tank players. Maybe I just might learn something. Some of my idea's for the future; invest into Fire Mastery for Melt Armor, more AoE and a -Res DeBuff are hard to pass up but I am not sure what prereq to take, neither seems too particularly usefull (single target CC with an inevitably low potency) I am leaning towards the hold, as I feel like it might be the better choice, has anyone had experience with these powers? I also plan to take the Leadership buffs, though I am considering avoiding Maneuvers as between grant cover and AAO I am already giving the group a good bit of survivability (Well aside from the obvious) is that small Def buff really going to make enough of a difference to justify the extra end expenditure? On top fo that I am considering Vengeance as tanks do get good returns on it, but it feels like a conflict of interests for a tank to be running around with a power that can only be triggered when one of their teammates bites the big one, Victory Rush seems usefull too but I can't find any numbers on it. Also looking into Intimidation and Invoke Panic, but agin I run into the problem of Prereqs, and these are even worse, either a weaker version of the taunt I already get, or a placate without the stealth? Yikes. Then again Pacify might actually be useful for tank swapping. Anyways what's the consensus on these powers and their usefulness?

Ok, so heres the deal a lot of people are clamoring for this AT. A lot of people are aslo ardently opposed to the idea, either on the premise that it will make one or more existing Melee and or Support AT's obsolete, or that it will invalidate everything that makes the VEAT's special. On top of that their is always someone trying to shoehorn an Assault Primary into the discussion, or suggest some other game altering "Fix" that won't satisfy people looking to play an AT like this. As a result I have taken to working on a Melee/Support AT of my own using the VEATs as a starting point, with a lot of research and experimentation I hope to end up with something that people are happy with, and that can be implemented on a server with little to know issue. Basically I plan to put at least as much work into it as malonkey1 has invested into the Duo. If it can workm it will, if it can't, it wont, and that will be that. Maybe once one of us has put in that level of work, people can see the potential of the AT. Right now Project Protector has a Defense/Support Primary, and a Melee Secondary. It's support powers are intended to be slightly better than a VEAT or Mastermind, but may be rolled back to be about the same. While it's Survivability is intended to be around that of a Stalker/Scrapper, with it's damage being comparable to a Tanker. Instead of getting Taunt it get's a Confront like ability called Goad, which comes with a -Res, -Def DeBuff (To compensate for a lot of Support powers POSSIBLY loosing their -Res). While the Protector is not a Tank, nor is it even a Scrapper, or a Defender it is still a support with decent damage numbers. Which seems to work just fine for VEAT's, and if you want to complain about it being too similar to VEAT's I think Fortunata and Dominator have words to take up with you. Why did I add this here? Mainly beceasue I hate that so many of these posts get made and none of the authors ever seem to collaborate in any meaningfull way. So here am, putting my money where my mouth is.

I concure me and my brother were just talkig about this whene I saw your post. lol.

I gave up on healing early on I was just giving examples. I am going the Shield/Street Justice route for that sweet, sweet -Res and -Def. As I have said I am not trying to make a discount defender I am trying to get as much Group Support as I possibly can without compromising the characters effectiveness. I will still be grabbing some power pools, but the medicine pool is bad enough as is, I cant imagine trying to use it on a tank. I am curious about the use of Recall Friend, Is their a reason for this? I'd imagine using it while tanking would be a bad idea. Just curious.

This is the continuation of a project I started over on general discussion. The basic idea is to take a melee character and ramp up their group support features (Buff/Debuff/CC/Heals) as far as possible, while still creating a solid enjoyable build. (This must be done withut a VEAT, I already have two and enjoy them very much, but they just don't feel like they are my own) after some thought I want I have settled on either Shield or maybe Rad for my primary. (Probably Shield), and either Stone Melee or Street Justice for my secondary. Furthermore I am still trying to make a character who makes sense thematically and just has a cool overall feel. Stone melee has a single target -res, as well as MANY knock attacks and solid AoE (So AoE Bruising wont be hard to keep up. Which I am worried it may be with StJ as I don't know if Shield Charge trigger Bruising). If I decide on Earth I will then need to pick between Shield and Rad, Shields Bonus's are nice, and comes with a group def buff, as well as an AoE enemy damage debuff, and an AoE knockdown. But Rad has an AoE -Def, debuff and a group heal. Street Justice comes with some nice debuffs (Including two single taget -Res) and is less energy starved than Stone, but is more single target and has less CC. If I runs StJ I will be running with shield. After this decision is made I will start working on deciding just what Power Pool powers I will be taking (Well aside from Maneuvers, which is an obvious if slightly self indulgent decision).