Puma

For one, as pointed out above, the other AoE is a KB. That really is upsetting for a lot of teams. I'm not counting Chain Lightning because, while I guess technically it's an AoE, it's a chain attack with really weak damage numbers that have been pointed out in other threads. That basically leaves you with Cloudburst, Direct Strike, and your tier 1-2 attacks, Gust and Hailstones. If you compare those to similar sets, it falls pretty smack dab in the middle; below Fire (obviously), electric, beam, and Ice; above Sonic, and Psy, and right next to Siesmic, Energy, and Dark. But since those sets DON'T just have those four, they have a bunch of AoEs to throw in, it's not a good comparison. And keep in mind that for those other sets, their heavy hitter single target attacks tend to come between levels 6 and 18, where Cloudburst doesn't come until your tier 8 at level 22. So for the first 21 levels you'd be stuck with just your tier 1 and 2 single target attacks, a weak AoE chain jump attack, and your snipe. Unless you want to use your weak AoE KB and annoy a lot of people. That is, unless you spend the time the OP is talking about setting up Storm Cell every fight and hoping to fire off a few of those attacks and have it trigger its procs before everything dies. But yes, technically, you're correct: you CAN contribute damage. So can anyone who has access to brawl. But really, why would you choose this set for anything other than cool graphics (and they ARE cool) or thematic choices? And should the choice for cool graphics of thematic integrity come at the cost of being an even contributor to the team? As others in the set have pointed out, it really is a slow set. Which, by the way, would be fine, if the payoff for that slowness was greatness in another way. But with this set, I don't see that payoff.

Right. That's exactly my point. With traditional Storm Summoning, you aren't making any of Storm Summoning's powers LESS effective by freely moving between it and your other powerset. Its powers all function the same no matter what they're followed up by. If I drop Ice Storm from Ice blast, the same is true. If I drop Rain of Fire, or hit Irradiate, the same is true. Storm Blast's two "key" powers, though, don't work that way. For them to work optimally, you DO need to follow them up by using ONLY powers from Storm Blast. Likewise, if you DON'T want to use those powers because of the cast time and being locked in to your primary, the rest of your Storm Blast powers aren't working optimally, and your other AoE becomes a knockback which will just annoy the team, so you probably wont use it either. It's a catch 22. And while you're right, a fast rolling team WILL be just fine without your Storm Blast powers...I mean...I'm not sure that doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T be able to contribute damage effectively, but with this set's design, that's really hard unless you pair it with a few specific secondaries like Storm Summoning. And honestly, even then, you're not getting anything more from that pairing than you would pairing Storm Summoning with another powerset. And we're not talking min-maxer teams only. Most normal, non-max teams move through mobs generally in 30 seconds to 1 minute per mob. With Storm Blast, that's barely time to feel like you're getting started, even if you don't take a second to use any of your secondary powers. The set's current design forces you to constantly cast powers that then still don't do much until you trigger them constantly with your other attacks only from that set. It leaves you with this weird lackluster feeling like you're always sort of...nerfed but can't quite figure out why.

Go look at the numbers. This is actually false. It does middle-low damage without the benefits of storm cell and even with storm cell stays middle tier. It also struggles with a lot of active secondaries since using those powers means you aren't using your primary attacks, so Storm Cell, which took time to set up, isn't proccing. It works with secondaries like Storm because you set tornado/lightning cloud/etc. and then just focus on blasting your primary to proc the storm cell and hurricane. And all the while Freezing rain, lightning cloud, and tornado are masking the lower damage output of the blast side. But others? No so much,.

Bah, sorry. I responded to the wrong post. I was responding to the post that said the attacks hit like a truck even without storm cell. Deleting it and fixing it now. I thnk the key difference though, is the "cast time" of storm doesn't then ALSO require you to keep using other attacks to make it worth it. If I drop Tornado, it does its full damage no matter what I choose to do next, so that long cast time is worth it. If I drop Lightning cloud, the same. If I drop Storm Cell? It does nothing if I start healing, or use my secondary attacks. It requires me to KEEP using my primary powers to do damage. So if I drop Freezing rain, then Tornado, then drop Lighting storm, I will have spent 6-7 seconds setting up but NOT 6-7 seconds before I'm doing real damage. And I can toss in some secondary powers in between if I need to without losing output from those. But with storm Blast? I drop Storm Cell, then drop Hurricane, and THEN can start doing real damage after that when I stick with only other storm blast attacks. Only by then the mobs are dead on a team. And solo, it just doesn't pack enough controllable punch to move fast either.

If only this had been brought up... by like...several people before it was ever live. And Rudra, damage and activation time are inherently linked, to some degree, in this game. If I offered you a powerset with every attack doing 2000 points of damage, but each attack took 1 full minute to activate, NO one would take it. Likewise if I offered someone a powerset where every attack did 1o points of damage but was instant nobody would take it. Both would be useless. Anyone looking at this post with the desire to really engage understands the issue is that, for the OP, storm cell (and cat 5) takes forever to really fully activate, and so it hurts their damage output overall. Every attack is basically built around storm cell, so if you want to perform "up to par" with most other players and your own experiences with other sets, you end up having to start each fight laying these slow building attacks, but since no one else using an other set on the team does, the mobs die before that activation time even pays off.

Go look at the numbers. This is actually false. It does middle to middle-low damage without the benefits of storm cell.

This is the second, if not the third time in this conversation you've said things about my experience with beta testing and design that are just wrong. Again, your arrogance and disdain for me for posting my dissatisfaction and concerns with the current process are...interesting. If you actually read what I've said in this thread you'll see I have a lot more experience from BOTH sides than your post here says. It's pretty ironic though, that you admit that small group alpha testing is somehow the only place major changes should be made, and then on the other hand say somehow Savage melee (and Sentinels, and others) were different because that was a small group testing back then. And the second part about "open beta not being a negotiation" is PRECISELY why, if you're going to keep this process where alpha is tested on a completely separate server by a small group, and even then the Devs have largely solidified the directions and concepts of new sets, it would be helpful for the Devs, in my opinion, to get feedback before development even begins about those ideas. No one has perfect vision, and right now you have a small group setting things in motion to the point where it's hard to roll them back even if unforeseen issues arise because too few eyes are on it until it's too far down the line. No matter how talented, passionate, and well meaning the Devs are (and they are), they have limitations as well. So if they want to keep open beta as "only seeing if it's good enough to go live" (which should NEVER be the design goal), then they need to frontload some of that feedback and examination by others ahead of development. If not, they should probably adjust the idea of open beta, or, try the other suggestion I made and institute an intermediary spot. Maybe have 1: the alpha discord group (initial testing of the Dev's first draft of concepts by a smaller, trusted group of players), 2: an "open beta" here where it's open to anyone to give feedback on the design choices and usability of what came out of alpha among a larger populace, and then 3: a "Refinement server" that seeks to refine the numbers, big fixes, etc. before it goes live. The last two should be open to the public on Homecoming if you really want enough feedback. Saying "anyone can join the Gold Standard Testers" sounds nice, but it takes too much effort for most to join it in Discord, get approved, get that server going, etc. You're naturally weeding out a lot of players who would otherwise be willing to test. Under the current system, if the "average player" DOES come and test on open beta and post their feedback, they just get attacked by you and others for not being there every step of the process that is mostly closed off to them without a ton of effort. Well...cool I guess.

I disagree. It is EXACTLY about wanting data, or at least should be. PART of that data IS community perception, but also understanding the myriad issues that a cool concept may actually have BEFORE you've become emotionally and productively attached to it to the point it won't change, etc. What would change is the end product, and also a slightly better understanding for the community of the general possible directions of these products and that they don't come, suddenly, handed down from on-high. You would very much be more likely to get products that serve the community better.

I will agree that one of us is full of themselves, but it isn't me. I have never been rude to you, and I haven't been rude to the Devs, even when calling out things I don't like. I have even thanked them for their responses. I don't deserve you being insulting to me, and frankly, showing an attitude of superiority and contempt to the majority of the player base that is not in keeping with City of Heroes's culture. And just a reminder that Savage Melee wasn't released by Paragon. And I can promise you I've participated in testing in multiple phases, on multiple servers. So frankly, either address what I've actually said or take your hyperbolic "by committee of thousands" response to the "role player" forum with the other works of fantasy.

I mean, what are your thoughts on these two posts by Devs, then, and how they played out? The first is the exact kind of thing I'm talking about: here is our vision, now what do you all think about that, good/bad/and ugly? My only change would be to have the thread locked with only a link to a private poll as the way to respond, giving the devs feedback without the ability for others to attack people's thoughts.

Thank you for this response and explanation. I have a few responses, that are in no way meant as contradictions to anything you say, but things to consider for the context of this discussion. Polling: You can very easily use multiple free, simple to use polling applications that would allow for ranked choice voting, ratings, and even leave some blank feedback slots for concerns that can accommodate thousands of responses. These do NOT need to show ANY results of the polling to the people taking them, so no one would have any idea what the results were, how close they were, etc., and the Devs could, with a web browser scan across an easy to read page, examine the results from several different angles. Google Forms takes about 10 minutes to set up and a simple link can be made public that allows anyone to answer it. It's not scientific polling, but it would allow for a fairly useful gauge of interest, etc. If any of the Devs are interested I would be fully open to meeting over Zoom or something and helping show you your options and how to use them. Just food for thought. Feedback: I totally hear you and agree, which is why I try to qualify statements like I did about seismic, etc. I feel that most of the actual feedback in the Storm Blast Focused Feedback thread didn't just use anecdotes, but tried to use numbers, causes, etc. I know I personally even tried rerolling with different secondary sets and archetypes to see if some concerns were specific to my first go round. Most of the people I saw did the same. Maybe we could find a way to try and more forcefully cut down on the meta-posts that were about other posts, not feedback, more strictly. I mean, sometimes posts about the ideas of other posts is also valid feedback, so it's tricky, but I do think there was a lot of good feedback lost in the bickering. On Dev investment: For the record, I do really recognize this and appreciate it. It's actually my primary reason for the push for polling before development really gets going and for clearly explaining timelines to testers. As a creator, I can fully relate to the intellectual commitment and emotional investment you get as you work on a project. When it's out for testing and suddenly someone wants major changes, that can be frustrating and absolutely outside of the vision you've spent hours upon hours on. But...that doesn't mean it's the wrong change. More eyes are usually better. Not more cooks, but more tasters, if you need a bad analogy. Getting some feedback ahead of time, and having a little more time with more people testing where the set still has the ability to be "reshaped" in real ways is probably a good idea for the Devs, too. It takes some of the pressure off of them, and in my experience, has you putting out a product that, if it isn't better, is more comforting because you know it wasn't just your baby being tossed out. It was the best everyone could come up with. And again, I just want to reiterate, I'm not saying that as if you all aren't already trying to have that mindset. As a tester this time, my experience was different than in the past, and frustrating for me, personally, though, so I thought I'd share some ideas for improvement. But seriously, thanks for the lengthy and thoughtful response.

That is NOT what you accused me of saying, though. You accused me of wanting " to emulate thunderspy's "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" approach" Saying that more people should have input before something is released to help catch problems and refine the design has nothing to do with "throwing everything at the wall." In point of fact, it's the exact opposite. It's making sure only things that really are the most efficient, desired, and polished they can be are tossed at the wall.

Evidence that you're just being dishonest: In that post I say "the Devs have been listening" and making tweaks and changes. I am not "whining about how no one was paying attention to my demands. I In fact, I posted THIS post also, thanking the Devs for the changes they DID make to duration and VFX on Storm Cell. Booper, specifically, was amazing at going back and forth with our concerns to the Devs. We were doing EXACTLY what the Forums said we should be doing, and while you KEEP SAYING that it was brought here pretty much ready to go and we were only supposed to look for bug fixes, we were told by Booper the exact opposite, and also that you really should stop commenting about how annoying our ideas were to you. And I quote: "The set does not come to Brainstorm ready to go. We don't do business that way. We are always looking at the feedback and trying to find ways to improve on the set that keeps balance in a good spot. This is a good place to get fresh eyes on a subject in hopes of identifying concerns that were overlooked during the internal development phase and closed beta phase. For example, a few days ago I pitched an idea to address a concern that I felt had a lot of merit. A 90s cooldown on Storm Cell may be too harsh on a low level character (where enhancement slots and other sources of recharge buffs are very limited). The overwhelming response was a 40s fixed cooldown was not desirable, so I didn't pursue that option. But that is still an example where we are listening to the feedback from both test servers and trying to find solutions to problems that we agree need to be addressed." And lets not pretend you ALSO weren't repeatedly asking for the things you wanted, which were VFX changes.

First off, HI FLEA!!!! Second, I think what you're going to find is that any combo that requires an active secondary becomes a problem. For Storm Cell and Cat 5 to actually work at even close to full potential you have to be amping them up with your main attacks. When you're using your secondary attacks, Storm Cell's procs aren't being triggered. So using secondary powers automatically reduces the damage of your two main primary powers. Plus you have issues with lock out, accuracy, etc, on Storm Cell. It makes the set unenjoyable outside of a few secondaries that allow for more passive play (obviously, in some people's opinion since this is subjective). Storm Secondary essentially covers this up, because once you launch Tornado, Freezing Rain, and Lighting cloud you can just constantly focus on your primary set, so it will perform at its most optimal state (which, as you say, is still just middling). But pair it with an active secondary and suddenly Storm Cell is doing FAR less damage debuffing, and Hurricane is slower to amp up and does less damage. Also, at higher levels, Storm Cell is really going to struggle with harder to hit targets because it's a pseudo-pet with 1.0 accuracy. It can work. And it is a BEAUTIFUL set. I'm going to try out a Storm Blast/Devices Blaster and see if I can get some better results since Devices is a passive secondary for the most part and I can focus on keeping Storm Blast optimized as gun drone and caltrops help boost its damage output. But I don't think a good set should be restricted to just a few secondary sets or penalize you for wanting your secondary to be an active part of your play. Anyway...I'm off topic. This will probably be my last post and I'll just say, I think the Devs should be open to looking at refining the testing process. You can keep deadlines, scope restrictions, etc. That doesn't have to change. But perhaps bring them from Alpha to Beta here earlier, to give more time for a wider set of feedback. Or come up with an Alpha 2.0 here that allows feedback before it gets to Beta for debugging, which still is open to a general pop that can give more feedback. And I really cant stress enough the benefit of actually engaging players before you start big projects and listening to their suggestions and ideas about your vision for that project. You just need to do it non-publicly to avoid the chaos and flame wars some players like to engage in.

I mean, you know people can actually still go read the thread, right? Except, of course, all your posts that the devs deleted and said were the problem. *shrug*

I'm curious: what data do you use for "fun to play." The Focused Feedback thread had several people who said that they really wanted to like it, and loved the animations, but in actual play it was =not= fun because of the flaws. And I don't recall any of them being about pure DPS, so that's a red herring. But seriously...what metric did you use to decide "fun to play"? How many people found the set good to go versus had problems?

This is PRECISELY why asking for player input before you set the goals of a page would be helpful. Some of the issues that come up would have been addressed before you even began. And as I said, a simple Google Form would take 10 minutes to set up and poll people about their feelings and feedback on a concept/direction you're thinking of, and if the results are private, you won't get a single page of bickering or forum fighting. Just something to think about.

Understandable, but in the future, it would be nice to know the deadlines as testers, since some of us are taking time out of our days to purposefully test things with various iterations, datamine, etc. It would be helpful for all of us, AND probably the Devs, if we all knew the deadline we were working for so expectations could be realistic for all sides.

This is hilarious coming from you. You were LITERALLY attacking several of us pointing out the very demonstrable, numericly backed problems this set faced because you said it was fine and wanted it out right away. That's not my take, that's your words. -YOU- were the only one demanding the set be what you want. You literally had your posts deleted for being off topic by attacking others. None of my posts got deleted. And as I posted above, the very first thread on the testing page says that ARE open to changes. If that's not correct, that needs to be changed. Also...I'm hardly a "rando". I've been with this community, in all its forms, probably longer than you have.

Please cite where I every said anything that implies this. Because I most decidedly did not.

Then a: Out of 3 previous sets, only one gets regularly played. That's not a great record (though we have no actual data on this so we can't know for sure) b: IF that's true, then these developers should be taking a page from those ones. This system is serious flawed, for the reasons I pointed out.

A: The polling I'm talking about is about the general public's reception to major ideas: things like Storm Cell and how it could function, for example. Do most players WANT a power that works that way, etc. Polling what the public would like before you personally get invested as the developer is EXACTLY the way to develop new products in an established player base, and I say this as someone whose Masters thesis was, partly, related to MMO design and communication. You don't poll on every detail, but you ask the general public opinions like "If X powerset were made, which design would be most interesting to you- A, B, or C?" "What problems do you forsee with design issue A? B? C?" etc. The results don't even need to be public. The polls can easily be done via Forms to give the DEVS the feedback while making users' comments and ideas not seeable by the playerbase. This would allow Devs to get an idea about the general reception and possible oversights of their vision for a set. Is it really a good one to the general population, etc. This would be BEFORE they put in the work of coding, AND present them with possible problems to avoid ahead of time in their design. You know...problems like designing an entire set around a key power and a tier 9 that require you to focus exclusively on your primary attacks if you want them to do their full damage. Ramping up is a cool idea, but it has a serious design flaw that could have been fixed if they'd have had more people looking earlier on. *shrug* B: Savage Melee was not finished by Paragon Studios. It was tested and finished by people in this community, and went through several major changes as we did. And the set is much better for it. C : If there is a clear deadline where no changes can be made, the testers here should be notified. It's a waste of -our- time having us spend two hours testing out a new combo tonight to see if there really is a problem, or what the solution could be, if they're already launching as is tomorrow morning at 6 AM. And if they don't plan on any changes during beta testing here besides bug fixes, they should make that clear as well. I feel this current system is unintentionally inconsiderate to the player base outside of the alpha test server, and even some of us on that server are here testing it and possibly wasting our time.

This is a major problem then, in my opinion, as someone who has access to both open Alpha and closed beta testing, and it's resulting in sub-par releases.

I think this is correct, but it's also very indicative of the problem. But if you look at the first link on the Beta testing forum, it's this: 2. BE CONSTRUCTIVE. Going on about how the devs are idiots and you have the One True Vision for the game is not helpful; trying to engage with the changes and the reasons given is." That assumed they should be open to changes, but go read the thread for Storm Blast, where multiple alpha testers and others say the set was pretty much set in stone how the devs wanted it before coming here, a dev said that wasn't necessarily true, then multiple users pointed out the same problems with the set (big, set breaking problems, not minor ones) and with no warning it was just published live with no dev feedback. That strongly implies it IS true.

Two things: Audio in cinematics and... Endurance goes away for ever. It's an outdated concept that serves no real purpose. Recharge is all you should be worrying about when it comes to keeping players from using powers too often, and honestly, this is proven by the fact that we now almost ALL use procs to make endurance a non-issue by the mid 30s. It's a holdover from everquest that you don't find outside of MMOs, and many modern MMOs don't have it either.