Puma

You could always take the Desdemona approach and make keeping said ally alive between waves so you can kill Reichsman part of the fun. 😉

What about just the addition of an NPC ally for that last mission that actually has the power attached to them via a PBAoE?

Just out of curiosity, why? I mean, there is a LOT more early and mid game content via contacts, etc. than there is end game content. Im not disagreeing, but I don't think there's a real lack of early game content. Heck...before shutdown they did entire revamps of Atlas and Mercy Island, and gave us all of Preatoria. They added contacts in Steel, Talos, etc. Perhaps a nice compromise might be more SSA style approach? Arcs or contacts who span the game and offer missions through out your entire career. If it came to story development, in my opinion the EASIEST way to advance things for all levels right now would be to start delving into the Battalion storyline via new zones, but those zones are just Battalion versions of our own zones so you don't need to do a ton of zone creation: just some cosmetic detailing. Think of Recluse's Victory vs Atlas Park, only with Battalion having taken over. Have it start by adding Battalion "invasions" that occur regularly in Khalisti Wharf. Have these purposefully be "tough" and have incarnate powers not work in Khalisti, for some "reason" you'll learn about in the storyline. Have Protean be the one contact in Khalisti, and his only mission just "unlocks" the Battalion controlled zones I mentioned above via a "time travel" version of the Tunnel system. Have those Battalion zones inhabited by Battalion enemies on the streets who are levelless, similar to what we see in Rikti and Nemesis and Zombie invasions, and a small set of contacts. Have the concept be that the Battalion invaded, and were able to somehow end the ability of earth's heroes to tap into the well, and then took over. The Dream Doctor used Protean to save you, sending you to the future to avoid the "wipe" where heroes lost their powers. Your hero is now trying to lead a resistance by restoring heroes to the world. Because they have limited the ability to tap into the well, incarnate powers in the early zones don't work, but because you missed "the wipe" you are still left all of your normal powers. Have any door missions scale based on your level. They could be true 1-50 zones. As you make your way through the zones (say there's six of them: Battalion Atlas, Battalion Mercy, Battalion Talos, Battalion Cap Au Diable, Battalion Peregrine, and Battalion Grandville) you get access to a your incarnate powers one at a time because you're restoring access to the well and building up a resistance to Battalion. Hell, maybe the story would be you're learning how to becoming a NEW well for heroes to tap in to. Anyway, my point is you could focus on working it around the mechanics of invasions which aren't level specific, and make them "co-op" zones for Red and Blue players trying to overthrow the Battalion together. You'd get a lot of bang for the buck with that approach and wrap up the storyline introduced by the Incarnate system. It would give new content to all levels interested in trying it, too. And yes, I know full well that none of the above is not "easy", but I think it's probably the best bang for the buck given our limited resources.

I disagree. I think you just sugar coated it to suit your argument. "More intuitive" in that it's much more like all of the other sets? As in...vanilla is more intuitive and offers more widespread appeal than Cherry Garcia precisely because it doesn't have much uniqueness and specialized appeal. And what happened with blaster secondaries is a perfect example of making them all much closer by gutting what made them unique and powerful when done correctly.

Thanks for the well written response, Minos. A few things: I didn't bring up Thunderspy because I didnt want to just keep name dropping other servers, but I would say they are a middle ground approach, but slightly more toward cake's side. I would rank it Rebirth---HC----Thunderspy-------------Cake. I hesitate to put Rebirth on there because as I see and understand it, it really isnt what I would consider a "developing" server. It's expanding story but that's it, right? They're still with issue 24. When you say we should "embrace the reality of high performance" I think that's overstating it. I think we shouldn't let fear of overperformance paralyze us, or be a main driver in goals. It should be considered, and clearly you don't want to make new sets or archetypes that overperform on purpose, but you don't need to be so worried about them doing so that it takes us several months to make one new powerset or archetype, and then in the end be left with one that isn't super impressive or unique, anyway. And I do think that happens here to some extent. And I say that as someone who has helped test the development of Sentinels, Savage Melee, Sonic secondary for blasters, worked with one of the Devs in trying to write a new contact and missions (albeit briefly) etc. I'm not just some schmuck who showed up out of nowhere and said "Why isnt this stuff as cool as next door!??!!". I'm absolutely committed to this server, its devs, and the community at large. But what you said here: " but the problem there is that if we did that it would just be an upwards spiral until we actually were at a cake-esque level of power. People would want their powers to be buffed to compete with newly buffed or newly released powers, because of the philosophy change that would be legitimate, and this would go on and on because there will always be new powers coming out and there will always have to be a weakest power" is something I TOTALLY agree with, but it works both ways. That's partly my point. This game has NEVER has truly equal performance among sets, and it never will. Look at the testing for the latest patch and you see LOTS of time people spent testing sets against other sets as rebalancing was done, and Galaxy Brain posting tier lists of performance as things shift, and in the end we still ended up with major discrepancies, only now who was at the top, middle and bottom were shifted. So I would argue a LOT of that was...maybe not wasted energy, but definitely not optimized energy. Sure, TW is a little less of a high end overperformer. It's a little more vanilla now. If someone can show me that the number of Titan Weapons characters being run to 50 changes dramatically now that it's been rebalanced, I'll be willing to alter my view. But I doubt it will change much. People will make it to test it out like we always do, and some will stick with it while others will move on, just like before. The "shine" it DID have wasn't enough for us to see nothing but Titan Weapons toons then, and the LACK of that shine and slightly more vanillaness of it wont suddenly make everyone want to run one now. But I worry that that's what's happening: energy is being spent on things becoming more vanilla (see blaster changes, too) and less unique because "balance", and that pay off, while there one, is kind of small. If that same energy had been put in to adding a couple more new powersets, or an archetype, etc without letting the fear of imbalance make us spend months hammer those into vanilla status as well, I think the payoff would have been far greater when it comes to players spending time logging in to play them. No, you don't want to make everyone have access to Tyrant level powers. But I don't think you need to really spend the majority of an update be "we rebalanced stuff" either. I say, look at our the game's strengths and how they fit our server, and in my opinion there are 3: 1. The game's greatest strength is the individuality and uniqueness players have in creating their OWN characters and exploring the world with them. That diversity is greater than any other MMO, and it isn't just "this power is colored this way, this one is this way" but in mechanics, performance, etc. That is a GOOD thing, because each new character plays and feels differently. So you can make, literally, dozens of blasters who all play differently before you even begin to branch out to tankers, or doms, etc. 2. Going hand in hand with the above, the community: We have a larger player base than any other sever, and also a sizeable RP community. Anything we add that makes #1 bigger will also make number 2 better, as RPers get to make more specific, unique characters from a writing perspective, and the general community gets new combos to try. 3. The knowledge and skill or our Devs. They truly know the code, they know the system, and they work very hard. I want to see their energies going to the things that will pay off the most. I do think we should move away from major "issues" and move more toward small updates. Thats what I'm seeing happen on other servers and honestly, it does keep you engaged. When every other week you have SOMETHING new come out, even if it's a small QoL update, it feels like more development is happening than there really is, which keeps you engaged.

My point, which it appears you agree with, is that we'd be better served "cranking out more unique powers and ATs" than spending our time focusing on reconfiguring powers and ATs we already have because "balance". Even if we threw balance out the window, like Cake, which I don't think we should, the game would still be enjoyable for a lot of players because of increased diversity we have in creating characters. And still require people to team up for some of the content, plus a larger players would still team even if they were powerful enough to solo. Just like now on HC. But again, we shouldn't throw balance out the window, but I think we should focus far more on putting out new things we already know get people to play: new powersets and archetypes. We don't need to pretend that this game, or the server, is dishing out things that require incredible skill or coordination to pull off. It hasn't for years. That ship has sailed, but there is still a LOT that can be offered by expanding player choice in powers, costumes, and archetypes that would keep players logging in for years more. I would also expand on another thing this server does well and actually has made easier than Cake. Sanctuary, and others: base building and RP options. I'd love some other RP maps besides Pocket D, and I'm not really even an RPer. A syfy night club is cool, but what about an RP research library, or an RP mystic lair, or an RP Forest,or an RP apartment complex where each door leads to your own "base/apartment" etc. Base building and RP is one area HC shines compared to the other servers I've seen, and adding to it while you also add to the variety of character types and concepts you make would go hand in hand.

Middle of the road is HC because you say it is? That's not how grown up discussions work. And again, yes...when we're talking about player retention, what other servers are doing is EXACTLY what should be discussed because guess where some of those players who leave might end up?

What I actually said was "And honestly, on Cake, with as ridiculously overpowered as you can become, some content STILL ends up with you dying once or twice on a mission, or requires a team to really do. That will always be the case. " And it's true. Even with their most powerful set, a new Evolutionary Leap combo mimicking one of the GM's power combos, you can't solo iTrials, etc. They are unlocked to try, but they are pretty much impossible solo. But again, I'm not saying we should be cake. Im saying that we should look to strike balance, and we'd get much more bang for our buck in player retention focusing on allowing for more player diversity and new powersets/archetypes than we would on spending weeks focusing on meticulous game balancing and going back and altering/changing/nerfing/buffing sets and archetypes or incarnate powers we already have and have been playing for years. A meticulously balanced game isn't what keeps most people logging in, I believe, because we haven't EVER really had that here. Hell, we started being able to herd entire maps into dumpsters. It's gotten better, but then also swung the other way with sets like Titan Weapons and Bio Armor. And honestly, most of the rebalancing is very temporary as players figure out ways to get around it, like New Hami, etc. What has kept this game thriving is the ability to create a wide range of diverse, and very unique characters who specific to our own personal tastes, and running them through the game world we already, generally, love and have run a hundred plus times before. That is where I think our energy is best spent, even if it results in the occasional Bio Armor/Titan Weapons Brute that is OP or the Dual Pistols/Dark blaster than is slightly underperforming.

Except that Im on both, and am trying to tell answer the OP by saying that there is value in a middle of the road approach and that I think the current approach here is likely to result in more lost players like the OP is concerned about, so yes, it is entirely relevant.

Then you should read my post, because I specifically made it clear that like you, I think Cake goes too far the other way. But right now, if I have to choose between having a boatload of new archetypes and powersets and pools and even sidekicks to try (even if they're are out of balance) and having one new powerset for a single archetype, a new story arc, and then a bunch of "rebalancing" and exploit fixes that really just make the game slower and more grindy for many of my toons, I find I'm more drawn to, and thus spending more time, with the former. Which saddens me because I will always consider this server home. But it gets directly at the question the OP asked about how to really maximize player retention.

I don't disagree, but my argument is that no, we should NOT expect, in general, a non-support archetype to do it more easily than a support one. This game moved away from the holy trinity a while ago, as it should have. There is a reason defenders and blasters were given the buffs they were. I would argue calling some archetypes "support" is problematic, and a relic of that old mindset. A tanker was meant to be "support" just as much as a defender for the team, each playing a different role. Tankers kept the aggro, which was supporting the team. So any idea that some (read: melee) should be easier to solo than others is, in my opinion, an outdated and faulty one. Personally, I think the way that they handled defenders is the perfect way to go: When solo your strengths and weaknesses are slightly rounded out, and when teamed your specialties are amped instead. So for tankers, I would have made it so when solo they had a higher damage modifier and when teamed, they instead had the increased AoE they have an a stronger taunt effect from it. Blasters, when solo, kept their strong controls and status/sustain protections, but when teamed had longer range and stronger melee damage instead. Controllers when solo do more damage with their controls/pets, but when teamed have stronger mezzes, etc. Each archetype solos better, and yet each gets a benefit for teaming as well, and one that would help where the team needs it most in harder content. And it makes sense thematically: when solo the character is having to split their energy/focus on everything, but when teamed they can focus more directly on their role and do it better. And like the defender changes, the differences aren't enough to really alter how the archetype feels except that soloing suddenly feels easier. This could also be accomplished, I suppose, by, when you are creating a character, choosing a specialty: soloist or teammate. Then you create a version of that archetype that has slightly different values to better suit that specialty. And yes, I realize that there are some power combos in ALL archetypes that can handle the hardest this game has to offer, but I don't think anyone would disagree that there are some archetypes that can use almost any power combo and solo very, very well at any level or difficulty, and some that really struggle with many of their combos at soloing in many areas.

That assumes you only want to play as Tyrant. You can also, as I was yesterday, be a Mastermind with a mix of elemental and robot pets, with a kinetics secondary. And yes, I died twice on a solo ITF. But I've also died on my Primalist shape shifter a couple of times. And yes, there are also options that would take you going AFK for a week to die. That's my point, partly. Sometimes you want to play a concept REGARDLESS of exactly how powerful it is compared to others. And having more options to do that is, in my opinion, the best bang for the buck in trying to keep things fresh with our limited resources. I'm finding I'm running content I haven't in years because it's just much easier to do so, and I have character concepts that are new and exciting to me, as someone who has massive altitis. Your mileage may vary.

I agree, though I don't mind trials. But I don't like having to try and gather 12-24 players when I want to run incarnate content. Honestly, what I'd love to see someday is the ability to set, when starting a task force or trial, the number of players on the team and have it scale accordingly, from 1-max number. And I don't mean like the normal difficulty slider, but one that truly scales not just the number of enemies, but their difficulty as well. Perhaps this would be achieved by actually applying an unseen debuff to them based on settings below max, or an unseen buff to you somewhat like in the first Mender Ramiel mission. One other option would be for those soloing or in smaller teams to get random NPC heroes to join their team for the trial/TF to fill the gaps. A change like that alone would get me running more iTrials, allow smaller super groups to run more content together, work better for RPing, etc. And honestly, the idea that I could run an LRSF with members from the Freedom Phalanx would be kinda fun. 🙂

This says more about your mindset and actual desire to hear varying viewpoints than it does anything about what I posted. Which is too bad, because if you'd actually read it you'd see my problems with that server's philosophy as well.

Disagree. There is literally no reason to expect that a brute should be able to solo at +4x8 and a defender shouldn't be able to handle +2x5, except that that's because YOU think they should. Superman doesn't need the Justice League to have his own solo stories, but neither does Green Lantern or Zatanna or Plastic Man. Either the game should require teaming for all archetypes to really do anything, or they all should be able to solo. It's stupid that if I want to play a fire blasting kinetic amplifying hero I have to be bound to always team, but if I want to play an electric fisted dude who surrounds himself in energy for protection I can go solo against the hardest stuff in game and be fine. Either the melee toons should require others to take down all of the enemies, or the ranged and buffing toons should NOT require others to do so. I should not be restricted to playing the types of toons you want me to just because I want to solo sometimes.

And it's, in my opinion, and absolutely stupid response. You will NOT increase retention by suddenly taking away power and reward that players have worked for in the past just so things are harder. That will literally just drive people away. I worked hard for my incarnate shifts. Taking them away is not going to make the game more enjoyable for me. It will make it far less...suddenly making it harder and taking more time to do the same old boring content I've done a million times before.

I totally disagree. I've been playing on the cake server lately, and it has what I think is the opposite approach we see here: They have embraced letting people become overpowered. And Im finding Im having an absolute blast and feeling excited to play in a way I haven't in a while here. Things like new archetype, powersets, sidekick pets, customizable mastermind pets, and even free form power choices all make things feel fresh. It's fun and fresh and exciting, but yes, it can be very overpowered. The truth is, while I'll never leave this server overall, I REALLY wish what we'd see is a meeting in the middle between the two mindsets. In my opinion, the idea that this game needs to be "balanced" to still provide a challenge still is absurd. We've all done the content a million ways. And honestly, balancing things to make them more of a challenge in this game DOES. NOT. WORK. for very long. See: new Hamidon raid. And honestly, on Cake, with as ridiculously overpowered as you can become, some content STILL ends up with you dying once or twice on a mission, or requires a team to really do. That will always be the case. This game has always had, as its greatest strength, a massively diverse amount of powersets and archetypes and costume pieces players can use to create massive amounts of alts. Most other MMOs I've played, you make one or two alts and that's it. This game, the content (of which there's a lot) doesn't keep people around so much as the experience of playing through that content with new powers and combos. Other servers are introducing those in spades, including entirely new archetypes, which make the same old content feel fresh, and that keeps you logging in. They are prioritizing that over trying to make sure each new power introduced is balanced in exactly the way it would have been at the peak of the game in 2010. They have, in my opinion, gone too far in that direction, but they're right that it's NOT 2010, and this game will NEVER be a game modern players log in to for difficult challenges and cut throat PVP or mind blowing campaign modes. Those exist elsewhere. This server is focusing on keeping balance and putting out new story content, both of which I understand, but I feel they offer diminishing returns. Like it or not, finding out my dark melee toons, which I've run to 50 many times, now are a little more AoE friendly won't really get me as excited to log in as an entirely new powerset to try. And adding new story content, which I'm very grateful for, is a long and difficult and slow process which we just can't rely on to be what keeps things "fresh". The Devs spent MANY MANY weeks and hours giving us those new arcs, and as someone who helped test them, I can tell you, they did an awesome job. But those arcs will only need to be run about 3-4 times before each player sort of feels like "Ok...now what?" You really need, in this game at this point in its life cycle, to embrace what it is and why most of us are back: We want to be heroes and make our own toons and be together. That isn't so much about meticulously worrying about balancing and nerfing over performing sets or archetypes. If anything, loosen the reigns a little bit and let us be MORE creative, even if it means we're a little over powered. I think you'll find that suddenly a lot of that content that people dont do because it's too slow or hard solo will suddenly get done more, so you're actually killing two birds with one stone. I love our devs, and I understand where they are coming from, but I think it's a mistake in philosophy and understanding of the game as it is and how times and players have changed, perhaps precisely because they've worked so hard and been so committed to keeping it alive and around during the dark days. Just my opinion.

You know what, I'm going to take a step back. I don't believe Sai is a liar. I think they must have either misstated something, overstated what they assumed about my play in the heat of an argument, or maybe just forgot for a bit who I even am. I don't believe they'd intentionally misrepresent stuff. I think this somehow got way out of hand. I understand the sentiment of the post, and don't disagree with its basic premise (it's important to test before you make up your mind about most stuff) but also think that there are changes proposed, at times, that players don't need to test to believe they are the wrong move for whatever reason. I've been testing things in this patch as I can. I can't possibly test all of it. I have SERIOUS concerns about the directions of large parts of this patch. I think those concerns are totally valid, even if I haven't been able to fully test out all aspects of it. And I think some of those concerns aren't about testing, because they are concerns about the direction of whole archetypes and the game itself, not specific powersets. Clearly Sai and most of you disagree. I'm OK with that. I shared my views. I'm not going to let this devolve any further. I apologize for blowing up the thread.

I have a level 50 Energy/Energy stalker so what are you even talking about? I have a 50 energy/WP tanker, too. And I've tested energy melee on a scrapper with the changes. But again, energy melee was simply an example. I don't have a major beef with it since the changes that were made in alpha. I don't think it's great, but not bad either, and an improvement over what's on live for all but stalkers.

For the record, I didnt just log in to beta, Ive been testing energy melee before that. I was using energy melee as a random example. This thread isn't about energy melee. It's about beta testing in general, and saying unless you've tested a set your opinion is worthless. That's simply not correct and is hyperbolic.

First...yes it was obvious hyperbole to point out the hyperbole of Sai's claim. I was being tongue in cheek. Second, I would actually disagree. You're placing the burden on people who want to maintain the status quo as opposed to those who proposed changes to do the work. The burden should be on those proposing the changes, be they devs or other players. So if, say, some players wanted blasters nerfed because they were too controllery, it isn't up to people who like the current state of blasters to prove why they should be left alone. They have ALREADY tested what they desire and have said they like it. And they don't need to "Test" how much they would like having their controls nerfed. They are, as I said, already happy. They have spent time and effort to build around the current state. So the onus when someone is suggesting change that would alter that is on the person suggesting change to show a)why the change is needed, and b)come up with a proposal for change that is acceptable or interesting enough to make people want to test it.

Actually, gotta disagree here. I propose changing all of Energy Melee's attacks single target attacks that do pure lethal damage that do negative HP on the caster and add a chance to grant invis to teammates. What? You dont like that? YOU HAVENT EVEN TESTED IT YET!!! Sometimes you dont need to test something to say you disagree with the direction it's going.

That's entirely the case. Honestly, I was so unpleased with everything I was testing in early Beta I haven't even been logging in to the server lately. Everything new felt off and lackluster, and everything that is being changed felt like a nerf (except some of the QoL changes). It really has turned me off. I'm not interested in feeling less super than I did before in the game. I get it's a different design philosophy, but it has kept me from playing here. I'll give it another shot early next week.

It's a schizophrenic set. It wants you in melee, but gives you very little in the way of melee survivability compared to other sets (weak sustain, the one crowd control power knocks them AWAY from you). I think it WANTS to use the migraine mechanic as its survival tool, but its so unreliable and unnoticeable that it doesn't work, and its one crowd control power is...not a good one, especially for a melee set. They really need to move the KB from Sound Cannon and put it in the -res power, then make it an Ice Patch clone that does -res. Call it "Vibration Field: You create a field of sonic waves on the ground around you that so powerful that the vibrations lower the resistance of enemies nearby and have a strong chance to knock them of balance briefly." Make the KD ticks 1.5 slower than those of ice patch in exchange for the -res component. Its just enough to lower some of the incoming melee damage you receive. Bam. Then you have a set that still does the sonic -res schtick, adds some survivability to the melee nature of the set, and your main crowd control power doesn't knock foes even farther away when you're trying to fight melee.