Puma
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1 hour ago, Shadeknight said:
I mean, I'm not the one going "Just look around and you'll see I'm right."
I'll entertain the conspiracy theory for one post - where is the actual proof that the devs have some sort of inner cabal for changes? Don't say the Gold Standard Discord because that's...one huge cabal if so. An open invite cabal at that. Strange.
Symphony Control? New powersets have a history of not coming from the forums. I point at Electrical Affinity.
AE changes? The community is split down the middle on it and the biggest one was walked back.
Sonic changes? Eh, they have done power changes before. Some that remain contested on if they were good or not.
Sheathed weapons have been asked for since live.
New HM TF + New incarnate Arc + New repeatables? Woah, more content!
Or is it the fact that the devs haven't implemented things you want?The Devs definitely listen to everyone. Ive seen first hand that they make changes before things even come to HC testing based on player feedback. I've seen them develop powersets like Feral and go back and forth for months trying to figure out how to find compromise. I've seen them attempt reworking Sentinels, and try multiple suggestions from players.
But they also weigh suggestions from people differently. Some players DO carry more weight with the Devs because they have been around forever and a relationship has been built. This is natural and you'll find it everywhere. Sometimes it's annoying, and it can actually lead to bad design at times because often those most likely to do extensive testing/be close to the devs are going to be more likely to be "cheer lead" and cut slack on things a Dev wants that the general population DOESN'T. But that's life.
The issue is, some Devs really have their own specific vision for how the game should work, etc. and it takes a LOT of wrangling from what people would call the "inner circle" to keep them from implementing it all. Which...again...is nothing new to CoH. That's been happening since it started, and different visions from different Devs over time proved it.
I'm not sure pointing to Electrical Affinity, a powerset created by these Devs, as an example of a "history of not coming from the forums" is rather effective. And it's a valid question why, when the Devs know there is pent up demand or some specific sets and archetypes, Devs are working on side projects that they like instead. But again, that is their prerogative. I dont know that "split down the middle" is really accurate about AE. It sounds like, from this thread and others, a small but vocal group is unhappy and wants changes but most seem to be OK with things as they are. And as for new arcs, etc....I have to say that the Dev they have in charge of creating new arcs right now is amazing. She seriously works HARD to get player input, even down to the vision of villain groups, and makes changes based on player feed back quickly, and even with an air of thankfulness for the opinions, not resistance to them. If I had a Gold Star, that Dev would get it.
What Id actually LOVE to see from this sever is a large scale set of polling done to see what the current HC players feel about the state of the game, the direction they'd like to see it go, AND where they'd like to see resources focused, down to specific powersets, and have he Devs publicly respond with a long term roadmap. They did a minor one a while ago, but I want one with enough detail and specifics to give actual, usable data. I would help them create the damn thing. But find out if they Devs overall vision matches most of the players', and if so, let the players know where you're HOPING to go over the course of the next several issues (generally) and if not, see how to better make them align. Maybe the Devs REALLY DO think that some of the game's mechanics need a modernization and rebalancing even if the population doesn't, but then maybe the devs could say "but lets also start giving them x while we do that, to try and meet in the middle.X of course, being Guardians and a Moon Base zone. 😉
I think that could go a long way to easing a LOT of the conflict every time a patch comes out. It would seem less "distance" and the Devs would have an actual external thing to point at and show that they're trying to satisfy the players by doing what they're doing in a way everyone can see.
And you could encourage people to participate in it by not just setting the link here in the forums but by offering a badge or temp power in game reward for completing it.
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14 hours ago, FriezaReturns00001 said:
Can confirm, I play on Thunderspy, there's none it's essentially for that rose tinted glasses bunch that want to run stuff int he game the slow-way aka WoW classic, the only thing over there I've seen was the reward window for buffs or benefits but it unlocks the pyrimid as you play.
Maybe I'm getting Thunderspy and Rebirth confused. I thought Rebirth was basically the "We kept it just like live" server and Thunderspy was the one with guardians, etc.
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3 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:
I'm all for experiments, but if population size is not a good measure of popularity, what are we experimenting for?
I meant population size between servers.
Homecoming had a HUGE head start. It was the "secret server" that got the buzz once the game became public again, and so it instantly got thousands of people.
what I was talking about were "shards" on HC. Make one of them a "farming shard" or a "no-farming" shard and see, in our own population, how that plays out.
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23 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:
Are there any insta-50s or super farming servers out there? How popular are they? I know most or all are smaller than HC, but I really don't follow the others.
Cake New Dawn will grant you any level you want, instantly, and also has a robust level of farming. It's a much smaller population, though. Mainly it's people who've left homecoming over time due to the "balancing" done here. New Dawn's version of P2W has a token that lets you autolevel to whatever level you want.
Thunderspy has a lot of farming but I don't think it has any sort of insta-50 ability.
I'm not sure you can go with "population size" as a pure measure though, since Homecoming got a huge head start and a ton more publicity, and still is the first real server that comes up on a Google search for City of Heroes currently (I just checked).
It's basically a "McDonalds vs Five Guys" at that point. Even if Five Guys offers a much better burger that its customers all rate better, it just can't compete with McDonald's exposure at this point, even if McDonalds's own customers rate their burgers lower.-
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13 hours ago, Nurvus said:
I think that's a good idea, it would have to be locked from transfers though. My main worry is it might cause a split in the RP community. I could see a push for the new server to be the new Everlasting with mixed reception.
Im not sure it WOULD need to be locked from transfers.
Because if we find that that server suddenly has a lot of transfers to/from over and over, that alone tells you people WANT to use AE the way we've been using it...even those who join a non-AE server initially.
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Interesting experiment, if possible?
Make one shard the "farming" shard where AE is in no way nerfed.
Let the feet do the talking, and see just how "popular" or "unpopular" farming really is.
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1 hour ago, skoryy said:
But the ancedotal data matches up to what I see when I check in on Everlasting or read on these here forums.
If you don't want to believe the ancedotal evidence, that's fine but that's not a me problem.
What you just said is entirely redundant, and it suggests you don't understand why making changes based on anecdotal reports is a bad idea.
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4 minutes ago, Parabola said:
I'm surprised you didn't mention RP. Yes, of course, some in game activities aren't directly comparable. Farming and regular play though are. In both you are engaging in the core gameplay loop, you are taking on challenge and defeating mobs for rewards. And I think there is balance to be pursued in that. So yes, I do mean it thanks.
So a team running radio missions, a team running a contact in Port Oaks, and a team running an ITF, and a team running a Lambda trial, and a farmer in the AE should all be receiving the same balance of rewards? How on earth would that even work? And at that point, wouldn't farmers just move to the easier route of speed running the easiest TFs we have? Which happened, by the way...remember when everyone was speed running Katie Hannons for the merits?
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4 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:
You have an Emp/Trick Arrow? HAX!
Also, I'm disappointed. You said money not inf. Farming for real money is hard work and no where near as profitable!
Monsanto begs to differ.
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19 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:
The Server Status tab at the top of the page displays # of Players AND their Hero or Villain alignment.
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5 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:
How much are we talking about here?
Well, I know you're a farmer, so 2 hundredytrillion inf, which I hear can be made in 10 minutes in the AE by any Emp/Trick Arrow defender you want.
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7 hours ago, Astralock said:
You are right, and wrong. Veteran loss is due to what you said. AE farming is, however, one reason for new player loss.I know a lot of people have it in their head that Homecoming hardly gets any new players. They are, of course, wrong. A new player signs up on Homecoming. He or she sees that Excelsior is the most populated shard, so he or she creates a new character. The new player’s character loads into Atlas Park. What does he or she see?
Loads of people begging for farms in the LFG channel constantly, and occasionally in zone Broadcast. He or she will see AE farmers tell people in the LFG channel not to join a Citadel TF that was just advertised, because TFs are “crap XP” compared to AE farming. He or she will see AE farmers tell others in the Help or General channel that only AE farming is worth doing, because it is the fastest way to both get to level 50 and get your Incarnate abilities. Then that newbie may get a blind invite from an AE farmer, thinking that PLing the newbie is a favor.
The newbie, not knowing any better, joins, gets PLed to level 30+, and then leaves. He or she has no knowledge of the game, does not know how to get to another zone, doesn’t know how to get a new mission, and has no INF to buy enhancements because the AE farmer told the newbie to get double XP boosters.
The new player has just been taught that Mission Architect is the entire game. More than likely, he or she will log off and never return.
Everything I just described has happened quite a few times that I personally know of, with some variation.
There’s been a lot of “What harm does AE farming do? I am not harming anyone,” in the thread. There’s your harm. AE farming has overall a negative impact on the health and longevity of the Homecoming community as at least some new players are driven off.
1. As has been pointed out, by me, it is ALSO one reason for player retention. I would like you to give me actual data to back up the assertion that AE farming has any noticeable impact on player retention numbers. If you can't, then please stop making this claim as if it's fact.
2. Your entire hypothetical about what a "new player sees" is ridiculous and frankly condescending. First, I would wager a large amount of money that VERY FEW people coming to HC are people who never played CoH. Second...is this the only game you've ever played? I mean, I played TSW when CoH was shut down, as we well Champions, etc. Im playing Outriders right now. And in all of them, I got shortcuts. Heck, I'd look up shortcuts online, join with established players who would help, etc. In Outriders right now I'm basically "farming" a few select initial map moments to get loot drops for better weapons. Never once was I stupid enough to NOT understand that there was more to the game. Neither are the new players on HC. Seriously...your hypothetical is hyperbolic at the least, and more likely, just outright wrong and built around your own feelings about the issue and how dumb you think farming is and the people who do it are.
I could just as easily come up with some argument that outside of farming, "New players log in to a game about being a super hero and what do they see? They see that they can only do like one or two attacks and a normal street mob can kill them or take five minutes to fight. They want to quit because that's not very super heroic and feels really slow. Then they join a DFB and think the entire game is just running through sewer maps with a group hitting stuff randomly until you come to an EB, and people start yellow not to hit anyone but him, or hit everyone else BUT him, and get back because you didn't know one of your new attacks was an AoE and cost them something called a "badge", whatever that is. So you quit and never come back." It would be just as absurd and condescending as your hypothetical.3. As has been pointed out by MANY in this thread with their OWN first hand experience, PLing and AE farming has POSITIVELY impacted the health and longevity of the HC community as some of us who are bored to tears with the established content that we've running hundreds of times already can shortcut the parts we don't and can log in and easily feel "super" for a while when hanging with friends in a farm and try out more of the myriad combos of unique characters that are the game's real strength. And since THOSE players ALSO contribute and donate to keep the servers running, they are just as important.
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3 hours ago, arcane said:
Using XP per kill is a dishonest way to measure AE rewards since they are custom designed by players to maximize kill rate.
Rewards = Rewards per kill times kill rate. If you aren’t factoring in the kill rate you aren’t actually talking about the activity’s overall rewards.
Then you'd have to deal with kill all ITFs too, because they are exactly the same.
And lets talk about just how unfair it is that people run the newer DFB and DIB Sewer trials on their newbies and get levels so much faster than I do running missions in hollows. It's just SO UNFAIR that they get oversized returns for that!-
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9 hours ago, SwitchFade said:
And, not a single person who is advocating for AE to retain it's ridiculous reward structure has given any reason when asked, "why should AE he have dramatically outsized rewards vs all other content?"
They have explained to you multiple times that the AE actually has LOWER rewards vs other content on a kill by kill basis. The difference is simply that the rewards coming faster because you aren't waiting to form teams, running to missions, and can simply do the killing in fast mobs and reset.
You just refuse to acknowledge that your question is faulty and keep asking it.
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21 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:
When you say something like "The vast majority of play-time is spent in AE farms" a lot of posters will absolutely see that as problematic. We all know that. But is the statement true? Will they be reacting to a real situation or an exaggeration? Is the game REALLY being taken over by us dirty, evil farmers or does confirmation bias just make it seem that way?
A statement like that really needs to have some basis other than vague impressions and a few players' feelings...
Especially when we admit that a chunk of that playtime spent in AE farms is played AFK by many people doing it, which means you won't get a 1 to 1 transfer from AE playtime to non-AE playtime.
I can login and have a friend PL me while I go do the dishes or mow my lawn via the AE. If AE was removed, those minutes of playtime would disappear, they wouldn't suddenly have me sitting there running a Maria Jenkins arc.
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Oh, I forgot to add:
The most common way I use the AE for PLing?
I PL a new character to 50, slot them, and then use them for regular game content by exemplaring down. But that way I get to pick and choose what I want to play and not have to slog through all of the crap I don't with them along the way just because they need the levels.
Also...I end up not wasting a month trying out a combo set only to find once it hit the 30s it really sucks and needs to be shelved, etc.
So not even all AE PLing means you have no one running content. It just means, for some, that that isn't how they gained their levels originally. -
14 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:
This is spot on. I would love to see the objective data that AE farming is the sole reason for the declining population and not other factors. Until then it is all assumption.
I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I can say for a fact that the reason I've been playing more on other servers is because some of them have embraced that the game is really old and the content has been done a million times, so it's mostly the new powerset combos and archetypes that are fun to play around with. They also make it easy to get those up to speed, even if many would consider it "too easy."
I'm not saying HC needs to do the same, but definitely forcing players to go to SLOWER routes to play the same content would drive more like myself away and to those other servers more. So at the very least, AE Farming is KEEPING some of us around that would likely go elsewhere if it were seriously altered. How many either way?
Who knows. That's where the assumptions come in.-
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On 7/22/2022 at 3:15 PM, arcane said:
People evading this question hard af
Because there isn't any way to really answer it. It's actually a trick question.
If I say it should be "25% better", then the question becomes "why"?
If I say it should be "25% worse", it's the same question.
So the REAL question we should be asking is "what is wrong with the status quo and why should be it be changed. What OBJECTIVE metrics are we using that right now, it's bad, and people who are currently enjoying it are wrong, while people who are unhappy are right.
And if there IS no objective measurements for that, then it's all subjective, at which point we should probably say "OK, so if we're going to make changes from the status quo that will negatively impact a segment of the player base's playstyle, we're doing it for purely subjective reasons to make other players happier."
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On 7/21/2022 at 6:06 PM, Bionic_Flea said:
I notice that no one like to answer my questions. Ask me anything, I'll give you an honest answer.
Reward per critter is a meaningless measurement, IMO. An Uber-duber fire farmer is earning more per minute than any other AT doing any other content; many times more even though they get half as much per critter.
I ask again, how many times more per minute should a fire farm be worth?
Flea,
I take the same farmer to PI and run Harvey Maylor Demon map on repeat at +4x8. Am I REALLY getting THAT much less or putting in THAT much more effort than my own fire farm map?
And most importantly, does it REALLY matter to anyone else?
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On 7/14/2022 at 10:54 AM, Marbing said:
Yes there is. When everyone is stuck in AE because it’s the best way to get anything, then other players have a much harder time filling teams to do the content they want to do, and thus get sucked into farming or simply quitting the game. There are two sides to every coin. It’s about creating a balance and right now there is very little, as AE is the best way to do pretty much everything, so large portions of the current game population do nothing but that, thus making it harder (especially on the lower population servers) to get anything else done that requires a team.
Lets parse this out a bit.
If I rolled an ice/sonic blaster and played nothing but AE arcs, by myself, how would I get to level 50 any faster than if I rolled that same blaster in AP and ran mission arcs? I mean...I guess travel time and all, but that's it. UNLESS we're talking about farming.At that point, the issue isn't AE, it's farming. And as has been pointed out, people farmed LONG before AE, and to farm well in AE takes you creating and planning a character and levelling that character to point it can farm and farm well for a very specific kind of map. You know, we used to do that before the AE as well...for that Harvey Maylor Demon Farm in PI.
But people will PL you in the AE so it's faster, you say? Well...they can do that out of AE as well. And have, historically, using many different missions and farms. So I could just as easily have someone PL my ice/sonic blaster in PI running a demon farm, too. Is it a little slower? Sure. But we're talking a minor difference, really.
We've done things, historically, to try and lessen this, like XP throttling (remember that weird MARTY thing they did?) and it just isn't worth the effort, in my opinion. Many of us are bored with the game's missions, and it's trying out new powerset combos and builds we enjoy, and the AE and farming lets us do that at a pace that keeps our interest, instead of destroying it.If people are playing AE to the point that you can't get a team for what you want to play, I'm, sorry. But honestly, you have no right to force them to want to play differently just so you can have a team.
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5 hours ago, arcane said:
To be fair, there have definitely been a few posters that have literally staked out the position that they shouldn’t have to play any parts of the game besides AE because they… don’t like the game. So to say *no one* sees is it that way is demonstrably false.
I didn't say no one sees it that way, I said that it ISN'T that way, so the argument that it is is false.
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On 7/14/2022 at 10:13 AM, Marbing said:
How about I ask you, why do YOU farm?
Various reasons.
Sometimes it's for inf, sometimes for Emps, sometimes for social reasons, sometimes to get a toon struggling with lower levels to a more enjoyable level range, and sometimes because it just feels really nice to get on that character who can tear through things with ease for a while. It de-stresses me.
The question I'm asking is that for those players who like to do most if not all in the AE, why are they wrong?Should people who DON'T AE be forced to do AE content to get certain key achievements in the game? No? Why not? After all, if you're saying that the AE players for some reason MUST go out and "enjoy" the other content, shouldn't the non-AE players have to go enjoy the AE content, too?
By the way, you STILL have to leave the AE to get things like accolades, badges, etc. so this claim that the AE has become "THE END ALL BE ALL FOR ALL NEEDS" is just ridiculous.
Before the AE people would run farms in PI endlessly for some other players to get their XP/INF, and back then, those two things alone got your toon to the highest levels of powers via SOs. Now the AE has players who run farms endlessly for some other players to get their XP/INF and the OTHER things added since then and are needed to get their toons to the highest levels of powers. The method and complexity changed, but the general action did not.
And NONE of that hurts you, unless you somehow think you should be able to force other players to team with you when you want.
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1 minute ago, Shadeknight said:
Now that's a take I didn't imagine seeing.
That being said, there's nothing wrong with AE being a source. It's wrong when it is the #1 end all be all source.
Right now, all this removes is veteran levels. You also cannot get Aether through AE. AE will still be the place to go for EXP and influence - it just requires a little more work on making custom enemies. Nothing major is changing, it just means you have to get vet level outside AE. Which is not a big deal.
Again, I ask "why"? You didn't give any actual reason here, you just restated the claim.
And I'm saying this as someone who uses both AE AND non-AE content.-
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On 7/12/2022 at 7:49 PM, Shadeknight said:
The AE should not be the end all be all source of all resources in the game. Prior to Page 4, it was.
Why?
If someone enjoys that aspect of the game, why does it matter?
Farming has kept this game alive FAR more than it has hurt it. This is just another example of some people wanting to force their playstyle and vision onto others so they feel less lonely.
In the end this game boils down to "grind". Grind for XP, grind for merits, grind for Emps, and now grind for costume currency. Why does it really matter if Joe and his friends want to grind in the AE for that while you want to grind in various TFs?-
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The Pretty Good AE Debate
in General Discussion
Posted
Ok, I'm fairly certain that Thunderspy has serious farming. I play mostly on Cake New Dawn, but when I've gone to Thunderspy I always find teams and see offers for Farming, etc.