LeoTheCat
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Posts posted by LeoTheCat
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14 hours ago, MoonSheep said:
Leo - I understand your logic here, though changes are generally made to introduce balance to the game and promote underperforming or underpowered sets to increase the variety of ATs/powersets played
As empathy is by far the most played set, it’s unlikely to be a candidate for positive adjustment
Why? Serious question. Who set "variety" as a goal, when, and what, specifically, is the metric by which we measure success? Why is "variety" inherently good? Should certain powersets underperform in order to have a "variety" of gameplay experience? This entire line of argument doesn't make sense.
14 hours ago, MoonSheep said:Moreover, many people are simply bad at playing an empath. Speed run a tricky TF alongside a skilled PvP empath and you’ll have a great and rewarding time
Same question. I hear this asserted quite often, and I even remember this being a reputation for the powerset in live. But it's over a decade later. Most of our players have multiple alts that they've taken all the way to 50. I would surmise (but I don't have the data to prove it), that we have more players being welcomed back then arriving here for the first time.
So is it your position that:
- a) Otherwise experienced players are bad at playing Empath (in which case, are you implying that they are bad at all of their sets, or uniquely Empathy, and why); or
- b) New players disproportionately play Empathy, to the extent that the powerset should not be improved in order to ensure that new players... receive a lackluster experience on their first character?
- c) The dozens of enfranchised players on this thread and the others linked in the first post are bad players?
Either way, I don't see this as a justification for not improving the powerset, even if any of those facts were true.
6 minutes ago, Milk Sheik said:I've got emp def for my badging main (vet level 112 or so) and while I would not turn down an empathy buff, I'd like to stick up for emping as a power set at 50+. I find myself being useful -- maybe not as useful as other power sets, but still appreciated by many toons in a number of situations.
I love my Empath too, which is why I made this thread. We can definitely still be useful, but I want us to be more useful. Specifically, I want Empathy to be at parity with the top sets (numerically and in terms of gameplay) and have a unique mechanic that makes it feel different. I still believe in the powerset, and you're definitely not alone :D
54 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:Cold Domination with self-cast shields of any strength does give me some pause. Although according to the powerset popularity charts Cold Domination is less powerful than Force Field. ;)
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1 hour ago, LeoTheCat said:
It was intended primarily as a counterargument to the implication that, just because a larger number of Empathy players exist, therefore Empathy must be just fine. I think the clear challenges for the powerset are enough of a warrant for improvement; this analysis just makes it even more desirable. Think of it as an overheal :p
54 minutes ago, arcane said:That being said, I think most of us can agree that popularity and efficacy are not necessarily all that well correlated, so popularity is just one variable.
50 minutes ago, arcane said:You can’t claim that the most popular sets should receive the most attention and simultaneously claim to be seeking parity. The first claim would widen disparity.
Popularity was introduced as an argument for why changes shouldn't be made. I refuted the argument, then inverted it. You seem to agree with me that popularity is only one variable (therefore should not preclude changes to the powerset). To be clear, I didn't consider popularity at all in my original post, but if the community wishes for it to be considered as a factor, then the popularity is clearly on the side of improving the powerset.
3 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:I think what those popularity graphs show is that the Priest/Cleric/healer archetype is a popular one in RPG gaming and a lot of people really enjoy that role. I don't think they're a reflection on the efficacy of Empathy as a set.
Also, Tex nailed it.
In general, there are several lines of thinking in response to this thread that I simply don't understand, i.e.:
- Fear: "if we try to fix anything, everything else will have to be nerfed,"
- Discourse Limitation: "we're not allowed to think about the endgame,"
- Popularity Paradox: "people want to play something, therefore we are not allowed to fix it."
I had hoped that I had cleared these up in my very first set of posts. I am not encouraging nerfs and I am not discouraging improving other powersets. I am also not likewise not on board for any ludicrous comprehensive nerfpocalypse or exponential design singularity where there is only Empathy, forever :p
48 minutes ago, Naraka said:Empathy already is proactive.
Empathy is ALSO reactive.
You're right Naraka, and I take your criticism seriously, because you are asking about the value proposition of the proposed changes. But what Menelruin is arguing is that the proactive element needs to be stronger and more useful. I agree with him.
58 minutes ago, kikyoku said:I agree with your sentiment here Leo. My issue with Fort/CM/AB is that only some players will benefit from them at a time. This is annoying in any support set, but empathy has three of them.
The absorb idea is good because it allows you to protect someone when not actively healing them, though fortitude more or less accomplishes the same goal.
Rather than bumping up the numbers in general, I think slowing down the effects is the better goal. Absorb Shields or repeating heals allow you to preempt damage instead of just reacting to it.
If your team is working perfectly, only 1-2 people should be taking damage, and during that time empathy is kind of just sitting around. But if you know your blaster is about to get slapped, or an ambush is coming and your tank needs help with the alpha, absorb gives you the ability to heal them before they get hit, which not only improves their chances of surviving on its own, but gives you and the rest of the team time to react before people start dying.
So replacing, say, absorb pain with something that grants a crispy single target absorb shield for an equivalent amount of hp doesn't actually change your potential healing output, but does help you keep things under control.
I also think the same thing about healing aura, splitting it into two heal bursts for the same total hp prevents heal overflow and gives you a healing presence between casts, which also reduces the need for recharge.
Kikyoku's comments here address the same issue that Naraka raised: how to improve the quality of the proactive elements of the set.
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1 hour ago, arcane said:
That is one bizarre way to look at data... by this logic the most popular sets should always get buffs. Which is not very logical at all. Seriously, wtf.
bruh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_regression
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_comparison_approach
Value is the quantified composite of the effect of individual attributes. Improving attributes = improving value. Evaluate for marginal utility and cost of improvements, and scale for population. Compare with alternatives. Here we are proposing to improve the attributes of the powerset, and the large population makes it more valuable.
Life-altering individual, market and geopolitical decisions are made on a daily basis using this form of analysis. This is how consumer price indexes are derived, the foundation for how the Fed sets monetary policy, and how trends emerge in improvements to consumer goods and assets, among many, many other things. It's actually more "bizarre" to just dismiss it, especially when it was intended primarily as a counterargument to the implication that, just because a larger number of Empathy players exist, therefore Empathy must be just fine. I think the clear challenges for the powerset are enough of a warrant for improvement; this analysis just makes it even more desirable. Think of it as an overheal :p
We actually don't have (or at least I don't have) the most valuable data here: hours played per powerset per level. This would be the true "market price" or "sale" for the powerset, as creating a character is free (except for the opportunity cost of time, which can be heavily mitigated by AFK farming), and there is an infinite supply (anyone can create as many Empathy defenders as they want). Another useful secondary proxy for this could be Veteran Levels. Do we have that data anywhere?
What can we say about Empathy and playtime? Is Empathy more likely to be AFK farmed than other sets? I don't know for sure.
On 6/9/2021 at 11:14 AM, arcane said:I don’t disagree. I don’t have the data either way. But I don’t play my characters before level 50+1, so I just have very little to contribute on that side of things.
On 6/9/2021 at 11:24 AM, America's Angel said:Yeah same. I don't play a character until I've AFK farmed them up to the right vet level to slot them out with IOs and Incarnates. I skip the 1-50 stuff the same way most people skip the tutorial. This makes my POV hugely biased, so I try and always bear this in mind when discussing game balance.
But I have my suspicions.
45 minutes ago, Naraka said:Nothing you guys are suggesting changes a damned thing. It won't make Empathy better, or competitive with the overperformers or make them valuable or give them an easier time with their trouble spot (soloing). And because of that, none of these suggestions are necessary and in fact, just clutter up the game with more pointless power creep that will ultimately push for more buffs to this and other sets in an ever perpetuating loop.
So no, your ideas aren't good, they're unnecessary and are extremely aimless in their execution.
But all this expanded durations, faster casting, absorb shield mess is just fluff that doesn't accomplish much of anything.
I appreciate the general spiciness of this post.
The durations and target saturations of buff effects are at the heart of the matter (but not the whole solution). When those buffs are off, the Empath is performatively not there (except for their secondary blast set, or control or MM primary, all of which have nothing to do with Empathy itself). Current recharge of the RAs, as has already been stated, is 90 up / 500 down. SOs slash that roughly in half. Fortitude (with SOs) can be kept on four other players. For the other three players in a full party, the Empath is not there except in some tertiary sense (other players are killing faster because the Empath is helping them). Compare this with Time, Thermal, Cold, Pain, etc. with 100% uptime. Numerical improvements are specifically based on the numerical attributes of the other competing powersets.
The Absorb is specifically to manage players who run off on their own (i.e., how the game is actually played). The Line of Sight proposal and animation speed increases make it easier for Empaths to engage in direct healing at all stages of the game. I think that I also answered you re: soloing earlier when bringing up the ability for the Empath to self-buff.
This isn't intended to be power creep; it's intended to be power parity.
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3 hours ago, MoonSheep said:
Is it?
The effect of this graph is precisely the opposite of what you seem to be suggesting. Based on your graph, improvements to Empathy would make at least 2817 players happier. Furthermore, imagine that improving Traps (79) and improving Empathy (2817) would require the same amount of time in order to increase each individual player's happiness by the same amount. This would mean that an hour spent improving Empathy is 27.68x as valuable as an hour spent improving Traps.
We contend that it's actually easier to fix Empathy, because, unlike Traps, we have a set of proposed changes in one location (this thread).
As a possible caveat, the numbers from that graph are out of date, but the ratio probably hasn't changed by an order of magnitude.
On 6/8/2021 at 3:09 PM, America's Angel said:Just to touch on this one line in particular. The point of me listing all that stuff was to show how utterly unbalanced level 50 with IOs and Incarnates already is. And why we should try to ignore it when discussing game balance...unless we want all that stuff to end up on the chopping block, too.
Last week, my wife took our Jeep to the mechanic to replace a burned out headlight. The mechanic said that he could fix it, but only under the condition that he was allowed to pull out a sledgehammer and smash up our windshield.
Just kidding. That didn't happen there and that wouldn't happen here. We've identified fixable problems with clear solutions. The dread economy of hypothetical zero-sum improvements is just another thought-terminating obstacle. I'm generally skeptical of any paradigm that asks us to think in terms of fear, or that we aren't allowed to think about something. You should be too.
On 6/8/2021 at 3:09 PM, America's Angel said:In terms of the buff values, though, the reason empathy's buffs are worse relative to other buff sets is because it is the best healing set in the game.
Citation needed. Please demonstrate Empathy's numerical superiority over Pain.
https://cod.uberguy.net/html/powerset.html?pset=defender_buff.empathy&at=defender
https://cod.uberguy.net/html/powerset.html?pset=defender_buff.pain_domination&at=defender
On 6/8/2021 at 3:45 PM, kikyoku said:Maybe I'm in the minority here, but discussing empathy's ability to solo is kind of missing the point of the set. I get that that's a thing and survivability is important for support, but I wouldn't base decisions on a solo player. There are other ways to protect yourself, healing aura and RA are fine in that regard.
Soloing is less important to me too. My comments re: soloing strength were directed at the standard that America's Angel set out. The best solo improvement would be to allow self-targeting and self-buffing, which, as I said in my first post, is part of a wider discussion (as it would need to be proliferated to other powersets).
5 hours ago, kazrack35 said:Several if not many powers can «heal other». So any boost by IOs in that kind of power that would help empathy would also buf all those, resulting in keeping or even aggravating that feeling of an underperforming empathy
Kazrack is right; although new IO's would always be cool, Empathy itself needs some specific love at the level of the powerset.
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1 hour ago, America's Angel said:
Empathy players don't have trouble soloing at+0/1 when playing 1-50 on SOs.
The overwhelming majority of Empathy's powers cannot target self, so we have Healing Aura, Recovery Aura and Regeneration Aura. Apart from Recovery Aura, that's not a significant boost to soloing ability. The player is essentially playing only their secondary without having to worry about using blue insps for 90 out of every 500 seconds.
1 hour ago, America's Angel said:Empathy players are hugely useful to teams at +0/8 when playing 1-50 on SOs.
Empathy has variable performance on teams, based on the level of the team between 1-50 on SOs. An Empathy Defender is especially useful at 20, but less so at 30, and even less so as we progress toward 50. We're looking at a several different performance benchmarks rather than a single rating of "hugely useful."
1 hour ago, America's Angel said:If you believe empathy should be balanced around other metrics, you need to make a case for this. And you cannot do it in isolation for Empathy, you must apply this same metric to every other set in the game.
The crucial benchmark that I brought up in the first post is balance: analysis of the powerset in relative terms compared to other Defender sets in terms of numerical output, power uptime and synergy of powerset with playstyle. As we have already identified, Empathy has extreme recharge times, unique positional challenges related to primary role as designated reactive healer, a self-debuff in Absorb Pain, lower numbers and higher APM for similar effects. All powersets in all ATs are currently evaluated in relative terms. See Galaxy Brain's (and others') threads on DPS and solo simulations.
We contend that relative output is already used as a standard by the Dev team, as seen most recently in the nerf to Rune of Protection and Titan Weapons.
1 hour ago, America's Angel said:Trying to balance the above would most likely result in a huge bunch of nerfs.
This line of argument is disingenuous. The purpose of this thread is to strengthen Empathy (and other sets), not to nerf other sets down to Empathy's level.
1 hour ago, America's Angel said:The solution is twofold.
- Create a new category of IO sets called Team Healing. Set every power that heals others to this category. Have this category able to slot both Team Healing IO sets and regular Healing IO sets.
- Create a bunch of badass new sets in the Team Healing category that will boost empathy in the endgame in such a way that "empathy players aren't useful at 50" becomes untrue.
That's the better approach, IMO. Because the main thing switching people off from Empathy is that team-mates don't really need healing in a world of IOs and Incarnates.
This is a cool solution, and should certainly be on the table. But as others (including myself) have stressed, a central feature of Empathy is its buff capability, and its buffs are not competitive with other powersets at any level, SO or IO, incarnate or exemplar. We should also make its healing sufficiently unique, balance CM and improve the Rez. Several level-agnostic ideas for that have been suggested so far in this thread.
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It's awesome to see more people throwing their ideas into the ring regarding Empathy revisions. It seems that the majority agrees that Empathy needs some help; we have a good dialogue happening on precisely how that should be achieved (this proposal, fortitude combo, rez improvements, CM, positional auras, toggles, etc.). Although some of these ideas are more popular than others, many of these ideas are mutually exclusive with one another, and perhaps combining all of them at once might be a little overpowered, it's still good to have all of them on the board as a resource for evaluating community perception and as a toolkit for redesign. Keep it coming :D
21 hours ago, America's Angel said:CoH isn't balanced around the endgame/IOs. It's balanced around 1-50 on SOs.
In that context, empathy is fine.
There are several comments in this thread as well as half a dozen threads linked in the initial posts about how Empathy is not performing well at the midgame or the very endgame. The set is not "fine."
In the alternative, even if Empathy were to be perfectly acceptable up to level 49, your standard of "1-50" includes 50, where there is a significant amount of group content and the set fails to perform adequately.
The general sense is that Empathy struggles even with IOs; without them, Empathy's performance is unusually poor compared to other Defender primaries. As Arcane notes, Empathy's problems are magnified at 50+ with IOs and incarnates, but those problems still exist even at lower levels. To the extent that the play experience from approximately 30 forward, fully inclusive, is not covered by your balance heuristic, then that heuristic itself should be rejected. If we too narrowly define the problems and measurement standards, then it's impossible to analyze, improve and control for them. This is why I suggested a set of performance and playstyle standards in the original post. I understand if you think that performance in that context is a useful standard (which it is), but should we be limited to that standard alone? Should we otherwise reject evidence and experience from the community out of hand?
21 hours ago, America's Angel said:If you think empathy should be rebalanced based on how it performs at 50 with IOs and incarnates, then that is a much bigger discussion, as every other set in the game will need to be looked at/balanced in the same way.
Per my initial post, discussion of improvements to Empathy does not have a preclusive effect on improving other powersets. This is a good "bigger discussion" to have, and, from the looks of the Suggestions and Feedback forum, people are already enthusiastically engaging in it.
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Not to threadjack or anything, but we have a good discussion going on at the Suggestions + Feedback board about revising Empathy. We'd love to hear from you guys if you have any ideas for making the powerset better or want to comment on some of the changes proposed by myself and others.
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Kazrack, thanks for the awesome write-up and for your suggestions. I really like the idea of a stacking mechanic based on Fortitude. Very cool. If that happens, would it then make sense to move the power way earlier in order? The suggestion of a time limitation on ignoring Line of Sight is also a useful and interesting proposal to prevent that benefit from getting out of hand (if such a limitation is decided to be necessary).
Counterproposal, based on your Fortified idea: What if the Empath ignores Line of Sight for Heal Other only when the target is Fortified? This would have the potential to reward careful play and attention to detail from the Empath.
Doomguide, I also hear where you're coming from on 8 End possibly being too strong for Healing Aura. It would be worthwhile to playtest different values (4, 6, 8, etc.) in order to properly calibrate the ability. All of these proposed numerical changes, from endurance, to recharge, to ranges, and all the way down, should get some scrutiny on beta. But I agree with your premise: careful clickery should be encouraged; spamming, not so much.
That said, it's cool to see that we're arriving at a consensus as a community that Empathy needs a buff and that there are several good ideas from everyone here in this thread for how to do it. Thanks for keeping this thread alive guys and putting in tons of effort for making Empathy a better powerset.
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Thanks for the clarification everyone. Much appreciated.
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Slotting the IO (Range/Fast Snipe) from Expert Marksman turns off the additional damage and range from Sniper Rifle while out of combat. My understanding was that this would increase the animation speed and attack speed, not remove the additional benefits of the power. In its present state, I'm not sure what the benefit of slotting this IO would be.
Is this intentional? Thank you for reading.
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Hey Doomguide, good catch on live Absorb Pain. I probably should have rchecked the numbers before making an offhanded comparison. The point still remains, however: HO and AP are designed to be emergency reactive heals. At the current animation speed and recharge, they don't do their job quite as well as they should (and AP should be converted into a low recharge single target absorb buff that can be maintained on all party members). Even with high recharge (as a properly built Empath should have), there is still a lag time between casts. Also if we lower the animation speed per the proposal, we should correspondingly lower the recharge so that the ability can be sequentially cast without interruption.
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Right, but it has no endurance cost and no recharge with a self-healing debuff. This proposal is to adopt the no/low recharge of AP on HO and chop the animation time in half. I'm not saying that it's a one for one numerical comparison; I'm comparing intended design and functionality.
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Some more great suggestions here from everyone. Special thanks to Razor Cure for explaining the current state of Clear Mind, although, subjectively, I often see teammates with my Clear Mind precast on them getting Immobilize and Hold (at least). It would be cool to get some clarification on the discrepancy between the mids, live and city of data.
4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:@ people arguing against more easily spreadable / accessible ST buffs:
How should it compete with sets that give nearly as good buffs, but team-wide and can be perma?
Galaxy Brain really hit the nail on the head: what Empathy does to a limited set of single targets or for a limited period of time, right now other sets can do party-wide and perma. I hope that this thread is part of the process to help move Empathy up to parity generally and give Empathy some unique and original strengths.
Resurrect
My original post only suggested a range increase and recharge decrease, but really... why not also simultaneously implement Menelruin's suggestion for 10 seconds of Untouchable and Oklahoman's idea for Targeted AOE? If we implement all three, it would maybe make sense to not also lower the recharge, but the range increase would still need to happen. Currently Resurrect has a range of 15 ft., which is one body away from standard melee range (7 ft.).
2 hours ago, Oklahoman said:My concern is that the game has changed a lot from live, at least in my experience. Back on live, we would see a mob ahead, take time to strategize and buff, then implement the plan. Now things are faster, there's usually not a team huddle before a fight, and everyone is kind of doing their own thing.
18 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:The idea of ignoring terrain I'm also not so enamored by. It's part of the challenge of Empathy, repositioning to acquire your teammates for both buffs and healing. I'm all for making powers more team friendly but I'm also not in favor of encouraging poor teaming habits. A very fine line with a lot of subjective grey all around I'll grant.
The Line of Sight removal idea for Heal Other and Absorb Pain and team-wide Auras is specifically to answer this problem. It also gives Empathy a unique advantage in gameplay that wouldn't imbalance the game numerically. I can't tell you guys how many times I've been in a cave mission, warehouse, or MSR where there is a tiny ridge or terrain feature that separates me from an injured teammate. By the time I run over, they're already dead, or I have to then run back to heal everyone else. People have commented that positioning is part of the challenge of playing an Empath, but, once again, other support sets do not suffer this disadvantage to the same degree. Remember that we don't "encourage" or control the play habits of other players; they are responsible for themselves. The set needs to take our limited degree of control over others and the current state of the game into account. Plus the changes would be cool, flavorful and fun :D
18 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:Heal Other -> I'm with Greycat on this one. The most important value here is animation time before effect (.833 sec). Guess I'm not against it but convince me I need it to truly improve the set. Personally I'd buff the base amount of heal or perhaps the radius of HA before buffing the recharge and animation times.
Right now there is a noticeable delay between castings of Heal Other if you need to provide a strong single target heal to two or more teammates in sequence. If you cast Heal Other and another party member needs a heal, you either wait for the recharge or hope they're within Healing Aura radius, because using a secondary blast would spend more arcanatime than just sitting there waiting for a recharge. It's frustrating and clunky. Two seconds is an eternity in a large scale fight, and especially when it matters. A faster cast speed and non-existent recharge would allow Empathy to properly react to incoming damage.
Right now this is what Absorb Pain is designed for on live (high output, no recharge, no endurance cost), but the self-debuff is devastating and outdated. New Heal Other as proposed above is basically a better Absorb Pain.
Thanks to everyone participating in the conversation, whether for or against. I appreciate you guys keeping the discussion alive.
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Thanks everyone for reading and for your comments so far!
Clear Mind
As far as I understand things (which admittedly may not be perfect), Clear Mind actually has different values for Sleep Resistance vs. other Mezzes. It applies a mag 12.9 general mez protection and then adds a specific resist to Sleep (+216%) carried forward. The +129% Resist carried forward against Confused, Terrorized, Held, Immobilized, and Stunned carried forward is currently PVP Only.
If Empathy gets an update, it would be awesome if all of these resistances were added to PVE and pulled to the level of Sleep.
It's entirely possible that City of Data is wrong, but here where I sourced my data:
https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=defender_buff.empathy.clear_mind&at=defender
The general powerset description here is nonspecific about the numbers and PVE/PVP distinction.
https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Empathy
22 hours ago, Razor Cure said:Unless you mean other sorta status things like debuffs.
This would be awesome. Killer suggestion ^
If this proposal ends up going anywhere, your idea should be in the final draft :D
10 hours ago, Greycat said:6. Fortitude -
"This will comfortably enable the Empath to maintain Fortitude on all party members" - all party members don't need it. Prioritize.
7 - The two RAs.
They don't need to be able to be perma'd. So that I'll generally argue against.
8. AB -
Also doesn't need to be on multiple members of the party. That's just too much.
I would argue that Empathy does, in fact, "need it." There is a general sense in the community that Empathy is "dead" or in serious trouble.
While I understand and respect the old-school challenge mentality (and practice it myself in real life), it is a fact that, in the present state of the endgame, Empathy is not at parity with other powersets with comparable functions. Several other sets have all of the convenience, party-wide buffs and numerical superiority that I am suggesting here. Why should Empathy have a lower capability coupled with a disproportionate set of disadvantages and complications?
10 hours ago, Greycat said:"If someone's going to run off on their own, that's on them."
"I *never* do this (call to gather) on my emps. I combat buff. The team's going to keep moving. If your Scrapper or Brute (typically) decides they need to hare off on their own, I'm not chasing you. (Also why I'm not for the "no LOS needed." Get over here and stay with the team!)"
Your comments have helped to clarify something for me. Empathy is currently the victim of another paradox. On one hand, it is the powerset designed to rescue the team when it is most in trouble with a suite of reactive heals and mezzes. On the other hand, the toolkit requires a certain standard of play from one's teammates in order to be viable: tight stacking at precise intervals, positional and situational awareness, etc. The problem is that parties most likely to observe that standard are the parties least likely to need reactive support (unless they are really pushing difficulty). This is another reason in favor of party-wide auras and removing line of sight from Empathy heals; it makes the powerset more resilient against (and less reliant upon) poor decisions of other players, while simultaneously giving the Empath better tools to manage emergencies.
On Bad Emps
1 hour ago, Razor Cure said:If I see an emp with more than a few attacks, I assume they are a shitty emp (they might be ok at blasting, but honestly, how hard is that?). MY own experience has shown..this to be correct in almost all cases. Of course, that is MY definition of a 'good emp.' But anyway..the powerset could use some love.
10 hours ago, Greycat said:When I see someone advertise as a "healer," from experience I tend to cringe and expect them to have no attacks past the first, or no slots in them. I'd be tickled to see some sort of buff to Empathy that adds resists/defense/etc. to whatever your other set is. But that's likely a mechanical nightmare.
55 minutes ago, MTeague said:- Doing a Posi 1 and the Empath doesn't even have Fortitude? They're a Bad Emp. As in "Bad Emp! Baaaaad Emp! No treat for you!" <spray water in face>
- If they're in their mid-20's and they have the important available powers and a mix of attacks, I'm far happier with that than an Empath who takes ALL the attacks or ALL the Empathy powers.
- Late 30's and beyond, I expect them to be able to toss around a mix of attacks along with their empathy powers
- And while I don't see them often, I expect any MM Empath to be able to compentently control their pets between buffing and any personal attacks they may have. I don't care if they have precision control over every pet, but know when to be in bodyguard mode, know when to be "'sic 'em, boys!!!", and know when and how to quickly banish them if they're about to draw extra aggro by chasing a runner.
I hear you guys. Unfortunately Emp has something of a reputation for not attracting the best players or for people choosing not to use their secondaries. My hope is that improvements to the powerset will raise all boats, advancing the performance of new/learning players who don't invest adequately in their secondary, as well as the endgame players who often have no choice but to leave their Emp on the shelf. Although the idea of some mechanical interaction with secondaries would be interesting, it seems that it would be so strong of a revision of the powerset that it would change the feeling or the playstyle and an insurmountable programming challenge.
Likewise, the buff for consecutive Emp powers seems as though it would encourage focusing on Empathy to the exclusion of the secondary. But I'm very interested in hearing more and we should certainly take the opportunity to talk about it.
55 minutes ago, MTeague said:Dark Blast is *quite* nice to make them miss more, kind of back-door-even-more-defense for whoever you Fort'd.
Emp/Dark Chads rise up :D /Sonic and /Beam are also useful partners for Empathy. You're right about Psi, but frankly Psi needs a revision of its own.
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Question and Answer
Those numbers on Resist (or Range or Recharge…) are too good. Would you be ok with X?
Proposals for numerical revisions are always encouraged. I may have written the first post, but this is -our- thread for how to improve the powerset.
What do you think about self-casting buffs?
I think that it’s a great idea, but that’s a global issue rather than Empathy-only. My Kin Kin and Bubble Bros should be able to do the same, or none of us at all, so that is probably a topic for another thread.Why don’t you suggest more radical changes: debuffs, playstyle changes, etc.? Are you one of those “cottage rule” adherents?
I don’t feel beholden to the cottage rule at all. My position is that the feeling of the playstyle should stay the same. The Empathy Defender should constantly be clicking, constantly be paying attention to the team window, and constantly paying attention to their buff recharges. Anyone who really loves the reactive healing playstyle can tell you that there is something exhilirating about it. Anything that would change this experience should be rejected on principle. If you want toggle heals, play Pain Dom (a great set).
Hey, wait a second. You’re adding Absorbs to Empathy. What about Force Field?
Yeah, Force Field badly needs some love as well. I used to run a FFer before the snap. My position is that improving Empathy shouldn’t mean that we don’t improve Force Field as well. The future Absorbs that FF gets should be even stronger than Empathy’s. The best of the changes in the other threads about improving FF should be all implemented.
But there are other sets that need help more than Empathy. What about Regen? What about Kinetic Melee? What about Electric Blast? What about Mind Control? What about Assault Rifle? What about T8 and T9 for Traps? What about Trick Arrow?
Just like with FF, those sets could use some love also. Please do not misinterpret my support for fixing Empathy as opposition for improving other sets.
Also, Assault Rifle will probably be my next writeup because I love the set.
tl;dr nerf Regen, too str0nk
Some awesome further reading (in no particular order):
https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/29203-is-empathy-dead/
https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/8011-empathysonicsoul-the-endgame-friendly-empath/
https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/18843-could-empathy-get-a-little-healing/
https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/18105-empathy-20-a-suggested-revamp-of-an-old-classic/
https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/4180-suggestion-for-changes-to-mm-empathy/
https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/2979-wishlist-buff-for-resurrection/
https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/8680-show-me-your-defender-tier-list/
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Powerset Changes
Note: Anything that is not Changed, Added or Removed below is presumed to be the same as the existing power.
Healing Aura
Add: Heal 8 Endurance (all affected targets).
The addition of an endurance heal makes this ability more useful in the early game and still useful in certain endgame scenarios with plenty of Endurance Drain. It also makes Healing Aura slightly more spammable in the early to mid-game, and increases Empathy’s usefulness on the Synapse and Yin TF’s.
Heal Other
Change Cast Time to 1.47 seconds.
Change Arcanatime to 1.708 seconds.
Animation Time to 1.467 seconds.
Change Recharge Time to 1 second.
Change Range to 100 ft.
Change Endurance Cost to 10.
Add: Heal Other is not affected by line of sight (can affect targets through terrain and objects).
Heal Other should be a defining power of the Empathy powerset. Empathy players should feel as though they have the best single-target heal in the game. In order to make it stand out (without adding any secondary effects on target), I suggest both of the following changes: faster speed, instant recharge and casting without line of sight.
Heal Other should heal the target at the same speed as live Absorb Pain: instantaneously, with only one second of Recharge. It will be the “always on” single target heal, healing at an even faster speed. If you want to save lives, Heal Other will be your favorite power in the game.
However, the endurance cost has been raised to 10 in order to prevent limitless spamming before RA, (unlike old Absorb Pain, which was essentially free with the penalty of a heal block on self).
Absorb Pain
Remove Self-Healing Prevention Debuff (Resist Heal Dmg and Regeneration).
Remove Heal.
Change Range to 100 ft.
Change Endurance Cost to 13.
Add Absorb to Target: value comparable to Healing Aura, Max 20% of Target’s HP (with both absorb amount and max % affected by +Heal/Absorb Enhancements).
Add Absorb Duration: 180 Seconds.
Add: Absorb Pain is not affected by line of sight (can affect targets through terrain and objects)
The name of the ability is literally “Absorb Pain.” It should be an Absorb.
This ability no longer has a standard Heal, but places an Absorb on the target. This would make it useful as a preventative measure, while Heal Other would be more useful while someone is at death’s door.
We add the same “not affected by line of sight” as in the proposed changes to Heal Other.
A hardcap on total Absorb % may be necessary, but I would be interested to see what the community has to say on the subject.
Clear Mind
Change Duration to 180 Seconds.
Add Resist Confuse, Terrorize, Hold, Immobilize, Stun, Sleep to 196.25% (the same as Sleep).
Add Resist Damage: Psionic +15%
Increase maximum Magnitude to 12.1.
The rationale behind this change is to make Clear Mind the premiere Anti-Mez ability. If an Empath is sufficiently busy, they should be able to eventually make the whole party mez-proof 42 levels before Clarion. The current limitation to only Resist: Sleep seems counter-intuitive and against the expectations of most players. Clear Mind should affect every form of mez.
Note that competing powers such as Rad’s Accelerate Metabolism already do this; why not Empathy?
The additional Psionic Resist helps to plug a hole in many endgame builds and make the set a more desirable companion.
In the ecosystem of powersets and incarnate slots, improvements to Clear Mind will give players the encouragement to explore Destiny Abilities other than Clarion.
Resurrect
Change Range to 100 ft.
Change Recharge to 30 seconds (previously 90 seconds).
Change Endurance Cost to 8 (previously 26).
If not accepted by target, recharge immediately (if this can be done).
Add: Resurrect is not affected by line of sight (can affect targets through terrain and objects)
This will synergize well with the ranged playstyle of the Empath. The range increase alone will justify the power from a gameplay perspective, allowing us to avoid the more controversial discussion of what secondary buffs should be added to the ability. If Empathy is meant to have a vanilla rez with no other effects, then it should be the best vanilla rez (shorter recharge and castable at range).
The previous Endurance Cost of 26 was prohibitive and meant that you almost never have it available when the party needs it the most. Given how other powersets and P2W powers have several secondary effects, why not make Empathy’s vanilla Rez cheap, fast and effective?
Fortitude
Change Duration to 180 Seconds.
Change +ToHit to 25%.
Change +Damage to 45%.
Change Recharge to 40 seconds.
This will comfortably enable the Empath to maintain Fortitude on all party members and, with slotting of the Spiritual Alpha and endgame IO’s, several members of a League beyond one’s party. However, the Empath will still need to actively manage it on all members, one by one.
Recovery Aura
Change Effect Area to AoE, all targets within range (like Thermal or FF’s Shields).
Change Max Targets Hit to 255.
Add +64.875% Resistance (-Endurance, -Recovery) for 90s (all affected targets).
Add +Recharge: +25%.
Change Recharge to 240 Seconds.
The additional Recharge makes this ability even stronger, but still not as comprehensively strong as Rad’s Accelerate Metabolism, which adds Move Speed, Damage, Recovery, 30% Recharge and Mez Resistance at only level 2. The Endurance Resistance and Recovery Resistance have also now been brought to parity with Accelerate Metabolism.
The reduction of the Recharge time to 240 seconds enables a well-slotted RA to be perma.
Regeneration Aura
Change Effect Area to AoE, all targets within range (like Thermal or FF’s Shields).
Change Max Targets Hit to 255.
Add Resist All: +10%.
Add Resist -Regen: 100%
Change Recharge to 240 Seconds.
The additional Resist All gives added value to the ability and makes it more desirable an endgame environment (where most players have at least S/L Defense softcap).
The reduction of the Recharge time to 240 seconds enables a well-slotted RA to be perma.
Adrenaline Boost
Change Duration to 180 Seconds.
Change Recharge to 90 seconds.
Change the name to “Adrenaline” Boost instead of “Adrenalin” Boost. On the other hand, is “adrenaline” really a feeling? If there is a character limit, change the name to just “Adrenaline” or perhaps one of the following: “Excitation,” “Vitality,” “Determination,” “Confidence” or “Tenacity.” This set is “Empathy,” not “Super Hormones.” Rant over :D
These changes enable Adrenaline Boost to be present on four or more members of the party, if not more at the endgame. The effect, which is currently solid and desirable, has not been changed.
I would also tentatively like to propose that the Recharge be dropped even further beyond this suggestion.
Conclusion
Thank you for taking the time to read. I hope that this document serves as a “save point” for the previous discussions of the powerset and may shine a light on future directions for development. Thank you for making City of Heroes HC the best MMO community in the world.
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Hello everyone! This is my first time posting on the forums, and I’m happy to be here :D
This post concerns some of my suggestions for how to modernize Empathy and make it more useful in the endgame.
Empathy has always been one of my favorite powersets. I love the busy clickery, the ability to save lives in an emergency, and the feeling of making the entire party stronger. Empathy, ideally, can provide a player with a specific experience of heroism: being the team member upon which other team members can always rely, the team’s last line of defense, the still point at the center of a turning world.
There are some excellent players who have managed to accomplish some extraordinary feats with Empathy, such as +4/x8 solo runs, solo AV kills, etc., but the commendable skill of these players should not distract from general concerns that currently affect the powerset. Likewise, many other posters have already provided their suggestions, linked below at the bottom of this writeup, all of which are worth your time and consideration. I’ve learned a great deal from reading their work, some of which is incorporated here in my suggestions.
Empathy currently faces several challenges:
- Healing has lower value in higher level content due to Absorbs, Defense, Resistance and Debuffs.
- Empathy has extremely long recharges on its best abilities, minimizing their effectiveness for group content. Comparatively, this means that Empathy is less able to provide a continuous benefit to the team than other top tier support sets, such as Time, Nature, Kinetics and Thermal.
- Empathy’s best buffs are numerically less effective than those of other powersets, have unusual gaps in what they provide, are single target, or positionally-limited.
Due to these concerns, Empathy is frequently placed at the very bottom of Defender tier lists. People ask, on a regular basis, whether Empathy is “dead.” Can we do better?
Consideration of these challenges has led me to a vision for the powerset. Empathy should be the conceptual inverse of Trick Arrow. In the same way that (ideally) Trick Arrow is -only- damage and debuffs, but strong versions of all of them, Empathy should be -only- heals and buffs, but strong versions of all of them. Empathy should also maintain its current character as a very active, very click-intensive set.
In other words, Empathy should be The Premiere Healing Set and An Extremely Strong Buff Set. It should retain it's playstyle drawbacks of having No Debuffs and being A Click-Intensive Powerset. Some of this stuff may seem obvious to many of you, but I want to spell it out in detail so that we can move forward from agreed principles and use a common design vision to improve the set :D
The Premiere Healing Set
People pick Empathy because they want to heal their party members and make them stronger. Empathy should meet these expectations by providing the ability to heal faster than other sets and for better values. Furthermore, some Empathy healing abilities should have an additional benefit, such as Absorbs and Endurance Recovery.
A radical but realistic proposal is that Empathy heals should not be affected by line of sight. Feelings don’t stop at forklifts, friends. As an emotion-based set, why should Empathy be blocked by terrain? How many times have you watched a party member’s green bar go down as they stood on the opposite side of a box or thin vertical rail?
Heal Other should work like Absorb Pain does right now: quick cast, instant recharge, high output.
Absorb Pain should provide only an Absorb, without the onerous and unnecessary self-healing penalty.
Likewise, Empathy’s Resurrect should feel unique and special. My proposal is to extend the range to 100 ft. (equal to Heal Other), with a faster recharge.
An Extremely Strong Buff Set
All Empathy buffs should be meaningful, noticeable and able to be perma on all party members or most party members (Adrenaline Boost) at sufficient levels of Recharge.
Clear Mind should offer single-target proactive mez protection against all negative status, not just Sleep. The duration should also be increased to a more comfortable time. We also add a small amount of Resist: Psionic in order to make the power even more desirable in end game scenarios where defense is plentiful but psi resist is comparatively rare.
The numbers on Fortitude need to be improved in order to make it competitive with Thermal’s Forge and Time’s Temporal Selection. For comparison, Forge adds +25% to hit and +50% damage on an identical recharge. Temporal Selection adds a +30% recharge, +150% Regeneration and +31.25% damage. Fortitude in its current state only provides +15% defense, +31.25% damage and +18.75% to hit. These numbers must be improved in order to make Fortitude a competitive single target buff, and the recharge time should be lowered to ensure that a busy Empath can reliably maintain the buff on all party members (and many League members).
Recovery Aura and Regeneration Aura should be party-wide within range, similar to Thermal, Cold and Force Field’s shields. It would make Empathy more fun to play, and more fun to play with for other players. Right now Empathy is on the horns of a dilemma: either post “gather for RA,” making other players change what they are doing in order to receive the buffs, or running into melee (putting oneself at personal risk with a ranged set) and trying to grab as many other players as possible (almost always less than 100% of the party). The positional element of the auras and the corresponding “gather for RA” macro is an artifact of being an Issue 0 set. We now have the freedom to improve this.
Likewise, Regeneration Aura’s effect is deprecated in the endgame. In order to keep it relevant, it should include a small but noticeable buff to +Resist/All%. This proposal recommends 10%. For comparison, Time Manipulation’s Farsight adds 12.5%.
Finally, Adrenaline Boost should be in the running the most impressive single-target buff in the game. It should also be on lower recharge to enable a high recharge build to keep it on a minimum of four party members at a time. Honestly? Empathy would be even better if it were brought down to Fortitude’s current recharge, but I’m concerned that it may be too radical of a proposal.
No Debuffs
Empathy makes the party stronger rather than the enemies weaker. By this logic, Empathy’s greatest weakness is the absence of debuffs. In order to maintain its class identity, this should not be changed.
A Click-Intensive Powerset
Empathy has always felt very “clicky.” Although other suggestions offer the possibility of converting several powers into toggles, I feel as though it would change the feel of the set too much. If anything, the amount of clickiness should be intensified. Many players prefer an active, enthralling powerset.
The Empath should constantly be casting buffs on their party members, and feel satisfied only when all other party members have Fortitude, Clear Mind, and both auras (Regeneration and Recovery). At least half the party should have Adrenaline Boost (if not more).
Likewise, due to the Absorbs from Absorb Pain, prophylactic healing should feel useful if the hero is not otherwise in a position to attack enemies with their secondary powerset. The security of Absorb Pain should also encourage the Empath to blast away at enemies more often.
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Resurrect
Clear Mind
Empathy: A New Vision for a Classic Powerset
in Suggestions & Feedback
Posted
The idea of self-casting should definitely be on the table for discussion as part of the solution, subject to Doomguide's caveat:
But I think that the set needs significantly more than (and other than) self-buffing. We should see if it would be possible to make changes in-set before modifying the self-targeting code.
Arcane, it seems as though you are beginning to see where many of us are coming from in terms of powerset parity. Now take the same logic that you've applied to the self-buffing discussion and apply it to the rest of the powers. I would be thrilled if Empathy had comparable performance to Time. And before you say it: no, people love Time and it should not be nerfed into the ground.