Is Empathy Dead?

[00Troy00]

My first level 50 back on Live was an Empathy Defender. I started to remake him, but I don't see much chatter on the boards about it. It used to be king, but maybe not so much anymore?   

[Apparition]

Empathy suffers the same problem as Force Field.  Good at early to mid-game, bad at endgame.  If you want a healing support set, I'd recommend Pain Domination instead.  It has a lot of great buffs to go with its heals.

[Psyonico]

Empathy is and always was only "King" to those that don't know how City mechanics work.  Debuffs/Buffs > Heals.

 

That being said, it still amazes me how many times on a PuG I'll see "Nice Heals."  Recently was on a pug with one of my TA toons and the only other support character was a stormie (who did have O2 boost).  I was amazed at how many times the heals were complimented, even though the team wasn't taking that much damage to begin with.

 

Anyway, I digress, back to Empathy.   It's a fine set, offers some nice buffs, but people focus on it as a healing set (which, admittedly, it does do well).  If you want to play as a crutch, then Empathy/Pain are great choices.  But Empathy isn't a top tier set.  With a top tier emp build you can turn a couple of your teammates into nigh-immortal beings, but you can't get Fortitude perma on a team of 8 and AB is only permable on 1 character.

[Tahliah]

I love empathy, but I do think that as you level, you need to focus more on the buffs than on the heals.  As someone else said, early to mid game (and I'd argue until 50), emp is still king in terms of heals and auras, but as you get into incarnates, everyone has their own heals (or regen) under control, so the heal part becomes unnecessary (unless there's a rikti/zombie invasion or if you are doing Hami or a RWZ raid, etc.). 

 

Given the shift in powers available to everyone at that stage, it's best to have a /"x" that is always useful (like dark, archery, radiation, etc.).  That said, I think empathy still has a role since you can run your emp def who is 50 on lower level teams to help them out (and still get incarnate threads/shards, etc.), and there are always tfs running on LFG, and such teams always like a good emp.

 

@Psyonicojust a quick note on your point, most players say "nice heals" if they stay alive.  It's not a comment on the "heals," but on the fact they didn't die.  No one is going to "nice heals" an O2 boost alone (with its nominal heal, it's not really useful in that regard, but it does provide res and perception increases that are very useful), so take it as a more generic "yay!  You kept me alive!  Nice job!"  That's all they care about, and if you do that, you are "healing" even if you aren't literally spamming a healing aura. 

 

One thing I've learned over the years reading these boards is that there are a lot of players who are super good at what they do, but don't really understand what other ATs do.  There are a bazillion threads across the forums (and were back on live) from various non-def or non-support ATs complaining about this or that, but then when the def or support AT weighs in, they're like, "oh!  I didn't know your sleep also dealt moderate damage" or that "your immob kept baddies from being knocked back out of melee range."

 

We shouldn't be so touchy about the blanket use of  the word "heals" by players who have no idea at all what defenders do.  "Nice heals" really does mean, "yay! I didn't die and I thank YOU for it.."   The best response is a well-deserved burst of pride and a sincere "my pleasure!" 

[Haijinx]

Once this thread fades away, someone remember to Necropost it about a year from now.  The title irony would be epic.

 

Empathy is good for people who do a lot of exemplaring.  But at 50 people usually do not need direct heals.  A lot of people are softcapped.  A lot of people are spamming maneuvers.  Making everyone /SR. 

 

 

[honoroit]

The debuff/buff (debuff as specifically favored, players expected to use insp/self buff/io set except dmg cap kin) argument aside, there's some realities of play I would consider. 

 

If you're a support, and the group is dying, it's a horrid feeling when you can't actually heal them. I get this every time I'm on a sonic res, or force fielder. 

 

Having more than a pbaoe heal is refinement, emp/paindom/thermal have spot heal capability. Emp and pain Dom have two levels therein. 

 

 

If your eyes are the kind that can glance a party window, where bars are dropping, and from that pick best course to return to health or survive what's being encountered... Then having a toolset to actually heal feels more true. 

 

I do prefer pain Dom to empath, word of pain is good and packs a res shield. Anguishing cry works well with dreadful wail (sonic)... and the set is visually superior. 

 

 

 

 

[Linea]

I play my empath the least, but they can still perform quiet nicely.

Emp Fire - Combat Medic Concept 4 - [i25].mxd Emp Fire - Harlequin Octagon 2 - [i26].mxd Emp Sonic - Harlequin Device 2 - [i26].mxd

Emp Sonic - Strauss 5 - [i26].mxd Emp Sonic - Burke 6 - [i26].mxd

 and many more ... The only thing I have more variants of than Emp is Time.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Linea

[Psyonico]

If we're posting builds, here's my Emp/Energy, soft capped to S/L/E/F/C.  Not great for exemping down below about 30ish, for that I'd  probably want a build that fits Heal Other into it.

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Fruit Salad: Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Empathy
Secondary Power Set: Energy Blast
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Sorcery
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Healing Aura -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(3)
Level 1: Power Bolt -- Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(9)
Level 2: Power Blast -- Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thn-Acc/Dmg(3), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(11), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(11), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13)
Level 4: Energy Torrent -- Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(19), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(21), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(21), FrcFdb-Rechg%(23)
Level 6: Boxing -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(13), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(27), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(27)
Level 8: Clear Mind -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Power Burst -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(23), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(29), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(31)
Level 12: Fortitude -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(33)
Level 14: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 16: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(17)
Level 18: Recovery Aura -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 20: Mystic Flight -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 22: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(33), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(34), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(36), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(36), GssSynFr--Build%(37)
Level 24: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(31), Ags-ResDam(39), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(39), Ags-Psi/Status(42)
Level 26: Regeneration Aura -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-Heal(37), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(39), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(40), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 28: Weave -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(33), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(40), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(50)
Level 30: Aim -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Adrenalin Boost -- Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg(34), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 35: Scorpion Shield -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(37), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(42)
Level 38: Nova -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(46)
Level 41: Explosive Blast -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(42), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(43), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(46), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(46)
Level 44: Spirit Ward -- Prv-Absorb%(A)
Level 47: Rune of Protection -- Ags-ResDam/Rchg(A), Ags-ResDam(48), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(48), Ags-EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 49: Maneuvers -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(50), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 1: Vigilance 
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(15), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(17)
Level 50: Ion Radial Final Judgement 
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment 
Level 0: Biological Mutagens 
Level 0: Kinetic Shield 
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
Level 50: Degenerative Radial Flawless Interface 
Level 1: Quick Form 
Level 50: Barrier Radial Epiphany 
Level 50: Talons of Vengeance Total Radial Improved Ally 
------------

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[Seldom]

Empathy is still very good, but its worst powers are arguably its earliest- its heals, and to get to its highest potential you need excellent +recharge bonuses.

Because many users focus on the most obvious, but least versatile powers (heals) the set does come off as lackluster.

To most new user: "oh, focus on Heal aura/heal other/absorb pain/resurrect!" If you play with seasoned users, you won't need to heal as often, especially at high levels. Meanwhile, best powers:

 

Fortitude: many only use this on the tank, if they use it at all. Most don't realize it's better than all leaderships toggle buffs combined, in one click. Its defense is the same as both forcefield single bubbles combined, then some. The damage buff is arguably its best portion, making it *wonderful* on high-base damage archetypes like blasters, dominators, scrappers, stalkers, who are rarely the obvious targets. The recharge was reduced since live, making this far easier to keep up 24/7 on a full team. Yet folks who do use this often use it reactively, keeping it up only on targets that take damage as a 'I hope this lets them stay alive while my heals recharge' rather than using it *preemptively* to keep any damage from getting through, and keeping the entire team hitting more often, at a 30% damage increase. (That's actually better than siphon power's damage buff, equivalent to a medium red inspire at all times)

Adrenaline boost: As good recharge as 2x speed boosts, people see the heal on it and think this is something to save until somebody is almost dead, rather than focused on the highest recharge/biggest impact powers to keep those up all the time. If this power is not on cooldown, I would argue it's not doing its best work, but again folks think it's more of a heal you can use and forget for its duration. They alternatively use it to fill up blue, which is good, but many endgame characters use tons of bonuses/incarnate stuff to get past that.

 

RA's: (Recovery/regeneration aura) While recovery Aura is the standout for early build that are panting for blue, it is often the darling with regeneration often an afterthought. Regeneration is far harder to find, and is far better with fortitude to patch any damage that does slip past the defense. Many again use these only when green/blue are low, and due to the recovery/healing over time, they are worst when folks are already low enough for toggles to drop/health to get spiked and they go down. These are best used proactively before the a big fight,  (requiring game awareness) done *without* the 'gather' call (many seasoned players hate being held back, or being told where to be) and just fired off when most of the team is in range. These have ridiculously long recharges, so without *excellent* recharge bonuses, they aren't available reliably, leading them to the common "save them for the right moment" treatment that also means they are used even less often than they are available.

 

TLDR: People think Empathy is reactive, and when your team is awesome there is little to react to. Folks don't realize the best powers are the buffs, for the "better than speed boost without running into walls" adrenalin boost, and the "you are forcefielded with big damage and decent accuracy" fortitude.

Empathy is best used proactively. Then you can react even better, because less healing will be needed. Yes, on big teams there's then a lot of monitoring the buffs, and a lot of clicks, but that's what a buff set does.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Barneysaurus

[Doomguide2005]

@Barneysaurus and others through the thread pretty much sum it up perfectly.  Empathy isn't dead.  It has issues that most buffs and buff sets run into in endgame content and Incarnates add to these issues rather dramatically.  You've got a lot of highly experienced veterans of the game running IO builds that are strongly self sufficient.  They're built to hit what they attack, to attack pretty much non-stop without endurance issues, often with high if not softcapped defenses back by substantial resistances.  Buffs by anyone become largely unneeded when teams consist of 8 tank-mages (or even 4 of 8).  The Empathy set is essentially all buffs, many quite strong and versatile but they're trying to make a stronger tank-mage for content that doesn't really require it.  It's not a problem unique to any AT (feeling unneeded) definitely an issue for support overall and tends to be worst on buff focused sets like Empathy.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Typos, clarity

[Dahkness]

After sinking many hours from live to HC on empathy I like it on maybe 3/4 man teams. But on 8 man teams I prefer Time buffs. Empathy's kit is more suitable for pvp play then pve for fast pace play styles. That’s just me. Def is god and you can only put fort on 3/4 people and that takes a good minute to wait for it to recharge. Once I found ageless RA is just a thing of the past. 

[MTeague]

Also a general rule of thumb is any set that people talk about as being a "Bad Set" can still perform just fine and 95% of your PUG groups won't care or even notice.

 

Many will tell you Electric Blast is a "Bad" blast set. You can still wreck face with it. Maybe it takes you 25% longer to clear a map. Anyone care? I don't.

An empath is good solid team reinforcement that protects me if I decide to do dumb things in the name of fun. 

And maybe I don't need the buffs for Peregrine Radios, but they're mighty nice to have on hand during Night Ward / Number Six arcs.

[Two Dollar Bill]

While I agree that Empathy is a great power set with great buffs and heals... it is dead for me. Characters that I would have previously created with Empathy all have Pain Domination now. They're very similar sets, but I find that teams today need the more offensive (de)buffs of Pain more. In a few cases I've gone with Thermal Radiation, but I currently have no Empathy characters.

[Bastille Boy]

Empathy will always have a place in the game because the idea of empathy as a superpower is kind of amazing.  A character's origin story can be almost any story.

 

Mechanically, it is not a bad set. In the endgame, many people feel it is outclassed by the other healing sets (Thermal, Pain, EA, and Nature). All these sets include a resistance buff. Empathy provides a defense buff rather than a resistance buff, and (unlike Time's Farsight) that buff is single target and cannot affect the caster. Most endgame builds softcap defense, but many do not hardcap resistances. So the resistance buffs are more often useful in pickup groups.

 

There are team compositions in which Empathy is potentially quite useful in the endgame. If the melee toons and sentinels on your team are using resist-based armor, empathy is a more attractive buff set. Multiple emps on the same team can run a "green machine" strategy.

 

Personally, I prefer less "clicky" support sets, and I like to be able to play both solo and on teams with all my toons. Some highly skilled players have done amazing things with solo emps, but Pain and Nature are both easier to solo, and they aren't as "clicky." So those are my top choices for "healing" sets.

 

[oedipus_tex]

One of the most weirdly unclimactic powers in Empathy is Resurrection. That's something I feel like an Empathy set should really shine at it, but its sort of like Empathy got the most vanilla one and everyone else got a special flavor. Some sort of Mass Resurrection thing or else a much faster recharging Resurrection would make the set feel better to me.

 

Slightly off topic, but I've storyboarded versions of Empathy under a different name, "Martyrdom" that would hopefully capture more of the "sacrifice" feel a set like this could entail. I don't think changes like that should happen to the main Empathy set this late. I'm going to show my age here, but I still associate "Empathy" with the "Empath" class that existed in Gemstone III and Dragonrealms, text based games on AOL in the late 90s and early 2000s. In those games, Empath couldnt directly heal you, but they could transfer your wounds to themselves and then heal themselves. It was an interesting design I always wished some MMO would copy. 

[Tahliah]

On 5/28/2021 at 6:29 PM, oedipus_tex said:

One of the most weirdly unclimactic powers in Empathy is Resurrection. That's something I feel like an Empathy set should really shine at it, but its sort of like Empathy got the most vanilla one and everyone else got a special flavor. Some sort of Mass Resurrection thing or else a much faster recharging Resurrection would make the set feel better to me.

This is so true, and I love the idea of a mass rez or some kind of tweak to Emp's rez to make it more fabulous.  It's an old set, and there is definitely room for improvement (with the rez and also making Clear Mind a one-shot team buff--rather than having to hit each team members separately--like they made other such powers on support sets).

[Nemu]

On 5/27/2021 at 1:56 PM, Barneysaurus said:

Empathy is still very good, but its worst powers are arguably its earliest- its heals, and to get to its highest potential you need excellent +recharge bonuses.

Because many users focus on the most obvious, but least versatile powers (heals) the set does come off as lackluster.

To most new user: "oh, focus on Heal aura/heal other/absorb pain/resurrect!" If you play with seasoned users, you won't need to heal as often, especially at high levels. Meanwhile, best powers:

 

Fortitude: many only use this on the tank, if they use it at all. Most don't realize it's better than all leaderships toggle buffs combined, in one click. Its defense is the same as both forcefield single bubbles combined, then some. The damage buff is arguably its best portion, making it *wonderful* on high-base damage archetypes like blasters, dominators, scrappers, stalkers, who are rarely the obvious targets. The recharge was reduced since live, making this far easier to keep up 24/7 on a full team. Yet folks who do use this often use it reactively, keeping it up only on targets that take damage as a 'I hope this lets them stay alive while my heals recharge' rather than using it *preemptively* to keep any damage from getting through, and keeping the entire team hitting more often, at a 30% damage increase. (That's actually better than siphon power's damage buff, equivalent to a medium red inspire at all times)

Adrenaline boost: As good recharge as 2x speed boosts, people see the heal on it and think this is something to save until somebody is almost dead, rather than focused on the highest recharge/biggest impact powers to keep those up all the time. If this power is not on cooldown, I would argue it's not doing its best work, but again folks think it's more of a heal you can use and forget for its duration. They alternatively use it to fill up blue, which is good, but many endgame characters use tons of bonuses/incarnate stuff to get past that.

 

RA's: (Recovery/regeneration aura) While recovery Aura is the standout for early build that are panting for blue, it is often the darling with regeneration often an afterthought. Regeneration is far harder to find, and is far better with fortitude to patch any damage that does slip past the defense. Many again use these only when green/blue are low, and due to the recovery/healing over time, they are worst when folks are already low enough for toggles to drop/health to get spiked and they go down. These are best used proactively before the a big fight,  (requiring game awareness) done *without* the 'gather' call (many seasoned players hate being held back, or being told where to be) and just fired off when most of the team is in range. These have ridiculously long recharges, so without *excellent* recharge bonuses, they aren't available reliably, leading them to the common "save them for the right moment" treatment that also means they are used even less often than they are available.

 

TLDR: People think Empathy is reactive, and when your team is awesome there is little to react to. Folks don't realize the best powers are the buffs, for the "better than speed boost without running into walls" adrenalin boost, and the "you are forcefielded with big damage and decent accuracy" fortitude.

Empathy is best used proactively. Then you can react even better, because less healing will be needed. Yes, on big teams there's then a lot of monitoring the buffs, and a lot of clicks, but that's what a buff set does.

 

 

There's one thing I care about more than any other buff in Emp's arsenal and it's not listed here. All the forts and RAs in the world mean nothing when those without mez protection can't do anything due to mezzes. Sure they aren't dying, but they are also not contributing. Conventional wisdom nowadays is to ignore the anti-mez powers and I hardly see people using them reactively, much less proactively, and that is a terrible shame.

 

If you can't be bothered to use clear mind even reactively, and keep in mind there are 45 levels before clarion, maybe play something else. People that are truly great emps use clear mind.

 

This is excluding solo emps of course, do whatever the heck you want when you solo.

[Doomguide2005]

     Very much what Nemu said about CM.  It's a casualty owing to a few things I think.  First is a sort of end game tunnel vision.  While many of us exemp, often with some frequency, as a whole builds are generally posted and discussed at level 50.  Perhaps the build is discussed as exemplar friendly or for only at 50+ but the one posted and primarily discussed is at 50.  Second the prevalence of high and softcap defenses reduced the frequency of need (if not the importance) and then of course there's Clarion.  And last it seems like there's been an increase in support sets with an AoE mez protection.  The most recent being Trick Arrow and the changes to EMP Arrow.  

[Seldom]

4 hours ago, Nemu said:

There's one thing I care about more than any other buff in Emp's arsenal and it's not listed here. All the forts and RAs in the world mean nothing when those without mez protection can't do anything due to mezzes. Sure they aren't dying, but they are also not contributing. Conventional wisdom nowadays is to ignore the anti-mez powers and I hardly see people using them reactively, much less proactively, and that is a terrible shame.

 

If you can't be bothered to use clear mind even reactively, and keep in mind there are 45 levels before clarion, maybe play something else. People that are truly great emps use clear mind.

 

This is excluding solo emps of course, do whatever the heck you want when you solo.

True. It's most important to keep up on the non-bubbler/elec affinity/traps support, (They have mez protection, so it's less pivotal on them) and blasters to maintain dps. That said, fortitude IS mez protection in a way. This is part of why defense is the prime stat for so many vet players, particularly on squishier characters...if a mez power misses, it does nothing. All holds/ stuns/ sleeps/ immobilizes/ confuses have either a damage tag (Like psychic/dark) or positional tag (ranged/AoE) that fortitude will help make into a 'miss.'

I was trying to keep to the broader game, for certain groups, particularly malta/rikti mez can be a major pain...then again, some folks then shrug and go back to fighting council/non-mezzing AE mobs all day.

[Tantricsecrets]

Nah, from my experiences with emp I'd give it low mid tier only with ios built mostly for recharge. With high recharge you can buff almost an entire 8 person team with fort, near perma ra's, and perma ab. 

 

Active healing can be a pain sometimes. Without ios this is a low tier set and ranks close to the bottom, lower than bubbles imo. 

[Nemu]

7 hours ago, Barneysaurus said:

True. It's most important to keep up on the non-bubbler/elec affinity/traps support, (They have mez protection, so it's less pivotal on them) and blasters to maintain dps. That said, fortitude IS mez protection in a way. This is part of why defense is the prime stat for so many vet players, particularly on squishier characters...if a mez power misses, it does nothing. All holds/ stuns/ sleeps/ immobilizes/ confuses have either a damage tag (Like psychic/dark) or positional tag (ranged/AoE) that fortitude will help make into a 'miss.'

I was trying to keep to the broader game, for certain groups, particularly malta/rikti mez can be a major pain...then again, some folks then shrug and go back to fighting council/non-mezzing AE mobs all day.

In this meta where billion inf god tier builds are easy to copy, the only glaring hole those builds have for most squishies is mez protection. I know, I've played a lot of melee blasters that have their defenses softcapped by level 30. I don't need fort, but I can tell you even with softcapped defenses mezzes do get through more often than you think, And it's even worse for those not using IOs. You think slapping fort on a blaster on SOs with no defense helps with the mez issue? It doesn't. Why do you think people take ROP even on those high end builds? Because they know they can't count on support players to do their jobs. 

 

Surely people that play empaths have been mezzed before and they understand how disruptive that is not only to themselves but to their team. This makes it even more amazing to me the number of people that downplay the importance of any anti-mez, not just clear mind, in the support arsenal.

[Seldom]

5 hours ago, Nemu said:

In this meta where billion inf god tier builds are easy to copy, the only glaring hole those builds have for most squishies is mez protection. I know, I've played a lot of melee blasters that have their defenses softcapped by level 30. I don't need fort, but I can tell you even with softcapped defenses mezzes do get through more often than you think, And it's even worse for those not using IOs.

Agreed in general. Clear mind is underutilized...the larger issue I think with mez protection is that it's not a true 'armor' in terms of duration, so it's a click-busy to keep it up most of the time, so even good empaths will keep it up only on those who need it...and it takes a lot more knowledge of the game (Including archetypes, enemies, and powersets) to know who needs it, and on whom it is unnecessary. Apart from requiring fellow players to call out when held, and that ain't ideal it's annoying, and usually worse for the team to be focused on clearing the mind of the team rather than contributing dmaage/buffs/debuffs/controls. And apart from real good reflexes, in a pickup group using it is almost pointless reactively; most mez will wear off or the character go down between the mez hitting>the victim typing"zzz/I'm held/Sunned!/They mezzed me"> empath register the chat>click CM on the right team member.

Since ALL clear mind does is mez protection+perception, I would actually hope the devs would change from the dev approach "Mez protection shouldn't be easily permanent" to the more logical "if it can be perma, it has a fast recharge, but low duration, why not cut out busy work and make it more easy to keep up 24/7 ona t least a few targets" approach.

 

As to defense, particularly as it applies to Fortitude:

A lot of folks will build toward smashing/lethal/melee defense, or ranged, or even AoE...but if you are a non-defense set character, it will be difficult, if not impossible to have best denses on all damage types, all positions. Fortitude has one little difference: it's defense to ALL. That's +Defense to smashing/lethal/cold/fire/energy/negative/psy/melee/ranged/AoE. NO blaster, very few controllers/corrupters/ and only some defenders can even get close to soft capping more than a handful of those, and the most common 'mind control' holds from enemies only have the 'psy' tag, so no other defenses will work. This means that for even the uberbuilds, it will either cap out the defenses they were close to, or patch the hole they had, in any case keeping not just damage out, but controls they had little chance of avoiding otherwise.

Why am I saying this? Empaths, keep ya team fortituded! It's on of the most pivotal ways to make their play and yours better! For mez! for damage reduction! For damage improvement! For hitting stuffs! Just Fort 'em all, all the time!

[kelika2]

Go Thermal.

[UrbanHound]

Not wholly relevant to the present conversation but one thing I enjoyed when the game was live was a duo my wife and I did with Empathy/Elec. We'd give each other all the big buffs and be almost like gods. In hindsight I would do a different blast set today but it's only in this duo that I really enjoyed Empathy. I believe that's why Pain shines a little brighter nowadays as you can at least selfishly benefit from some of its powers. 

[DrInfernus]

Empathy certainly isn’t dead, no. Empaths, well, heals in general, are certain not as important as they used to before IOs, but they are far from obsolete. Back then they played a vital part, where as now they are more like lifeboats: You hope you’re not going to need them, but you’re pleased to see them there. 
 

Last night I did two task forces with one of my healers (fire/pain corruptor - not empathy but close enough) and had two very different experiences. On the first I was actually told off by a tank for healing him because he ‘didn’t need it’. On the second there was a lot of heeling needed and a lot of gratitude sent my way. 
 

One thing I do love about playing my empaths or pain doms is they put you in a position to influence the outcome, and last night was the perfect microcosm of that. You might not always be needed, but you’re able to make a massive difference when you are.