Galaxy Brain
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Posts posted by Galaxy Brain
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@Rune of Protection:
It seems the root of the issue here is two fold:
1) Mez sucks in CoH with how it works and how multiple AT's can basically ignore all but the more exotic effects for basically all their life while others are forced to endure that binary. It stings for many where they have to wait on incarnates, or a particular pool power with low uptime in order to play like a ton of AT's do without needing outside help (buffs / inspirations)
2) What should pool powers do? This one is a bit more esoteric, but take a look at things like the fighting pool. Tough is awesome as it grants mitigation vs the most common damage types in the game. Weave is awesome as it provides defense vs everything. Cross punch is awesome as it provides a stacking buff to you, and with Box/Kick it is a decent AoE attack... but what is the purpose of punch/kick outside of that? They are far too weak/unwieldy for basically any character to use seriously over an actual power pick, and that is mirrored across many other pools as well with examples like the Presence Pool having incredibly niche abilities you gotta take to get to the good power. Should all pool powers be useful, or is their intent to always be "bad" compared to primaries other than needing them to get to the "good stuff" as a cost, but then why even have those powers to begin with?
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3 minutes ago, America's Angel said:
"How should the game be played?"
I've given it a bunch of though this week, but hard testing parameters are impossible in PVE, sadly. The PVE side of this game is just played too differently by too many different people. There is no such thing as a hard baseline in such an environment. A baseline for DPS and HPS are almost impossible to work out. (Unlike PVP, where everyone plays pretty much the same way and balance is pretty easy to figure out, comparatively.)
The best approach to PVE balance is just to have the players, each of them with a varied playstyle, provide their own, unique feedback based on how they play. And then collate all of that feedback get an overall "feel":For example...
Galaxy Brain likes to stand still in Cimms using only SOs - this is their feedbackl.
America's Angel likes to run missions with insps, P2W, and everything else - this is their feedback.Infinitum likes to run missions without insps/P2W, but uses incarnates - this is their feedback.
Werner likes to run missions with enemies debuffed, no insps, alpha-only, etc - this is their feedback.
Uniquedragon likes to run missions with red number SOs - this is their feedback.
Etc etc.
And then from all of this feedback mixed together, an overall consensus emerges. (Which the devs can then compare against their own knowledge, datamining, and number-crunching to conclude the best course of action.)
What this means is that Focused Feedback threads, and the debates within them (to help sort the good ideas from the bad) are already the best way to test armours in this game.
I like this train of thought! Each one of those examples is something a single person could do in theory as each is a parameter, its just a matter of boiling down which would cover the most bases.
Galaxy Brain likes to stand still in Cimms using only SOs - this is their feedbackl.
For mine, it is somewhat unrealistic as in practice people do not stand still and just take it on the chin. It is good for isolating the (armor) however, but on reflection there can be a better way to track this though it will require more time. In the interest of boiling it down, this could be classified as "Run the test on SO's only with what'd be assumed basic slotting", which would be a category for anything, not just armor.
America's Angel likes to run missions with insps, P2W, and everything else - this is their feedback.This is valuable info! But we need to be careful how far it goes when it comes to repeatable results. Sure, you can run content with a mix of buffs which is realistic as many folks do this. The trouble is that due to RNG in the game, you're likely going to need to run the same task 3 times or so to get a good average result. If we were to boil this one down: "Run the test with X loadout of P2W buffs / X set of inspirations available to use" in order to be consistent.
Infinitum likes to run missions without insps/P2W, but uses incarnates - this is their feedback.
This one is much more straightforward, you could tag this as "Run with full incarnate abilities" or "Run with a 'top tier IO build'", or both combined!
Werner likes to run missions with enemies debuffed, no insps, alpha-only, etc - this is their feedback.
Werner is the man, but I feel like this one gets a little too "specific"? We have other runs that would be 'no outside factors' as well as 'use incarnates only', Outside of the tweaking enemy stats (which is another bucket of variables), this one is sort of the same as Infinitum's example except limited to Alpha instead of a full suite. That said, it could be worth at some point breaking down the incarnates per tier to show their impact, but that'd be one of those things that would just need to be done once or so. As for what this boils down to, the specific run we could imagine would just be somewhere in between the base / full incarnate run logically as that is what these parameters provide.
Uniquedragon likes to run missions with red number SOs - this is their feedback.
So this one does puzzle me a little, is this not the same as just having no enhancements? I can see value in just going at it with powers set to their raw base values... but this goes far against the grain of what is expected. While there is no expectation that everyone uses IOs/Top end IOs, or even Incarnates, the game is set up to where it does expect you to slot basic enhancements. I can see this being a very focused parameter if something is say, suspect of being overtuned and comparing it even without enhancement to something with enhancement, but as a general "we are trying this out" test I feel it'd be something you have to go out of your way for and would normally come up short compared to the rest.
Regardless, we will ultimately need multiple people running things to get the best data possible. But like you said, unlike PvP not everyone plays the same. Boiling down several criteria though where there are "brackets" of testing would be the next best thing where we can at least control for "they just used SO's" or "they went full incarnate" or "ok, they used all the P2W buffs and had 5 purples on hand to use".
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13 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:
So, expanding my thoughts for @Galaxy Brain et al to consider using in the original post of this thread . . .
Categorizing the Mechanics of ALL Power Sets
This first stab is not at all comprehensive as I'm going to post with just the Melee Sets first, but I'm taking the shot at the goal of having this done up for all Sets . . . some day.I welcome everyone to explore my methodology and expand, or write their own.
I'll admit straight away that these are based on the in-game "Show Info" panels, and do not appropriately factor in things like Build Up versus Rage, or other similar factors which very likely shift the values in the DPA categories significantly. Additionally, I'm aware that the info in the in-game Info panels aren't truly accurate to begin with, since things like Fiery Embrace or "Chance for" conditionals severely skew these values.
Still . . . as a loose snapshot, I hope this examination of the mechanics of various Power Sets is at least an informative talking point in this discussion.
What do you folks think? Should I try to expand on this, or are there too many errors and too many subjective viewpoints to really make it fruitful?
This is a great start! Due to mechanics, I think some of the categories are a little disengenous... for example yeah TW has slow cast times, except it has momentum 80% of the time where it has some of the fastest on avg.
Lets work on this in DMs 🙂
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One we kinda see is /Energy Manip for blasters with a "Super Boosted attack" set.
Specifically, it grants you a big array of self buffs that do different things that you can either go nuts and stack them all, or alternate between. On top of this, the stun power changes radically based on what buffs are active.
Id really like an attack set based around this with say, only a few actual attacks but then a bunch of conditional powers that change how those attacks work.
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39 minutes ago, Troo said:
I was asking if the travel powers were NOT at the cap would they exceed 2:00. (similar to actual in-game much of the time)
"players can get to anywhere in such a short amount of time that it doesn’t require more than two minutes to go from one place in the game, to anywhere else"
The numbers you posted are great at showing what is possible and comparing the big three.
I am simply pointing out not everyone is going to be at the cap and might take them a wee bit longer to get from place to place.
I know where you're getting at Troo, but I think its a perspective thing.
Nabbing this from the OP:
Lets whip up a new character on Beta:
As-is, these are my speeds.
Lets turn sprint on:
Super Speed by itself:
Now, super speed + sprint:
Super Speed + Sprint with a single SO in Swift:
Not much difference, but hey its something. I would reckon many people would slap a single speed SO into SS as well:
Not too shabby since the current live cap is 92.5mph. With bare minimal investment, we are solid 10% faster than the cap you need lots of investment on live for!
With 2 SO's in super speed, you are so dang close to the cap it's silly. Slapping a run speed in sprint (or 3 slotting SS) will totally cap you out now. Just to be sure, I was able to cap with only 3 SO's in SS + toggling sprint (no slots) , removing the SO from swift:
If we wanna go even further down the rabbit hole:
3 slotted swift only:
3 slotted sprint + 3 slotted swift:
But anyways, as for those travel times we can do some guestimation thanks to good old math thanks to @Glacier Peak:
Power/Course
Peregrine Island (2.72 miles)
Nerva Archipelago (1.96 miles)
Super Speed
1 minute, 22 seconds
59 seconds
(I cut Grandville as it is not as easy to map the distance vs speed)
Speed = Distance / Time, so :
PI = 2.72 / 01:22 = 119.41 mph avg (being under the cap here could be a matter of feet. If I calculate the reverse of 120.24mph * 82s = 2.74miles)
Luckily, we can solve for time by doing Distance/Speed. With my numbers above, we can easily plug it in:
19.33 base = 8:27 (16% the speed)
33.65 sprint = 4:27 (31%)
45.21 swift sprint = 3:37 (38%)
69.44 Super Speed alone no slots = 2:21 (58%)
83.76 Super Speed Sprint = 1:57 (70%)
102.13 minimal investment = 1:36 (85%)
NA = 1.96 / 00:59 = 119.59 mph avg
19.33 base = 6:05 (16% the speed)
33.65 sprint = 3:30 (28%)
45.21 swift sprint = 2:36 (38%)
69.44 Super Speed alone no slots = 1:42 (58%)
83.76 Super Speed Sprint = 1:24 (70%)
102.13 minimal investment = 1:09 (86%)
So to answer the question, it very much depends on the task but even the longest distance is sub-2:00 with SS + Sprint and 0 enhancements.
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For real though, I am downright confused. Can somebody explain what we are upset about given we are all faster now, and the relative speeds of each powerset are in tact vs each other?
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4TL45 , the super-fightin robot!
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36 minutes ago, Troo said:
Is Orodev related to Homecoming or something else?
As Apparition said, it is something else but tangentially related to HC in that you can put together a private server much like how @oedipus_tex has.
You can also gain experience with things like Unity and making a game to release in the wild, or get into the modding scene like I have with remaking Borderlands 2 into Borderlands 2.5 with thousands and thousands of downloads. 😄
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Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:
Assault/Debuff is one I would love to see, specifically where the debuffs are pbaoe and act as armor.
Do you mean as an AT, or an Assault Set that comes with nasty debuffs?
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1 minute ago, Coyote said:
I'd like to see two things added:
1) MM options for melee-range personal attacks. Ninjas especially should have the option to go down a Martial Arts tree rather than an Archery tree.
2) Buff/Debuff sets matched with melee-range attack sets (the attack sets would probably need to include a small amount of mez protection). I'd like to see someone mixing daggers and poisons, ice swords and frost shields, etc.
One thing that just hit me was using melee range as an excuse to make a buff/debuff WAY stronger. As a squishy, having to run up and tag somebody seems like a fun risk/reward. The only one that comes to mind right away is Elec's Defiblerate (spelling lol)
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Great place to start reading:
So, CoH covers TONS of concepts already! Melee Weapons, Hand to Hand, Elemental abilities, different forms of self defense, different ways to protect others, and the ability to customize damn near everything about it! However, outside the Aesthetics there are also the mechanical differences when it comes to how a character operates.
Yes, many sets have the same "building blocks" (t1 blast, t2 blast, t3 blast / immob, hold, aoe immob / SL shield, Auto Power, Mez protect power / etc per set type), but key powers really hammer in the playstyle / mechanical hooks:
Energy Blast All attacks deal knockback, you get to play around with this positional advantage Beam Rifle Tag enemies with an effect, and all other attacks do bonus things Fire Blast All offense, all the time. No tricks, just raw dakka. This also means no safety outside defeats! Dark Control Have multiple pets through possession, temp pets and a true pet (also -Tohit) Electric Control Control enemies by sapping their endurance and severly limit their options Plant Control Offensive control with great raw damage, and a key power that snowballs the more enemies you fight Cold Domination Defend your allies primarily by bolstering their defenses, and debuffing enemies Nature Affinity Sustain the party through stacking multiple heals that feed off each other over a fight Time Manipulation You can choose 2 targets: 1 gets extra benefits from your buffs, 1 gets extra detriment from your debuffs Street Justice Chain successful hits to build a "Meter" that is spent on powerful augmented attacks Ice Melee Slow down enemies that you strike, as well as inflict minor crowd control to provide a mix of defense and offense Super Strength A set that revolves entirely on maintaining an incredibly powerful buff that also has some consequences to monitor Invulnerability A healthy mix of Resistance and Defense, it lets you be passively tough vs most all content though with an Achilles heel you need to be aware of Bio Armor Choose different stances to adapt to the situation at hand Stone Armor The ultimate defense, but with penalties that you need to work around as a player Radioactive Assault Combine different powers in tandem to create new effects on enemies Energy Assault On occasion get powered up, allowing you to unleash a super move Thorny Assault Trade ST output for being able to spread damage everywhere! Etc, etc. Some sets are more straightforward, but they still have a mechanical edge over others such as Martial Arts being relatively straight forward but uniquely able to mix in a lot of status effects on a single enemy.
What do you feel is missing from the bunch? What would you love to see?
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4 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:
@Galaxy Brain . . . new thread, please!
It's an important question for General Discussion, which you can then link from here. Having to jump in to this conversation in the middle of the Eco-Friendly thread is a little haphazard.
I do feel they go hand in hand in a way at least! What kicked it off for me was the latest two sets (Nature Armor / Laser Blast) which while using existing assets, doesn't do much "different" as written to make it stand out from X other set where you could hand-wave theme.
Though yes, a new thread may be best
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You know, something I touched on before but that I don't think we have had a group chat about:
What *PLAYSTYLES* are not present in CoH?
Not so much a theme, like Wind Blast or something, but specifically playstyles like Stance-Dancing, Self buffs, Debuffs, Marking one dude and getting bonuses off that dude, etc, as anchors for a whole set?
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Just want to check something...
Scrapper Burn = 133.5 dam
Blaster Ignite = 278.1 dam
could be part of it
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I really dig the idea that they would be a Vigilante group moreso than an "Enemy" group, almost like a pseudo Primal version of the Resistance, natural people "fighting back" against the super-natural.
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11 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:
Pretty sure the only difference between dev and armchair dev is salary. And the only difference between armchair dev and unpaid dev is.... nothing.
Course, that fact makes me question certain forum moderator decisions, but whatever... I'm not volunteering to moderate the forums, am I?
Yes and no, technically any one of us can hop into Orodev and make their own version of CoH. The seperator between armchair _____ and the real deal is effort / experience!
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7 hours ago, Troo said:
Wait,.. what do YOU mean?
Ohhh lol, I was more asking how that had to do with "armchair game dev"
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12 minutes ago, jojogladco said:
Is that the Brutal Simulator or is there another one that we can run?
Yep! Which is an offshoot of the normal office sim with Punching Bags to just test offenses. The main thing with each of these are that with the trapdoor mission, the mix of enemy types and the custom enemy at the end may end up causing certain biases that a more controllable one may not.
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1 hour ago, Troo said:
Ha!
(<caution> shameless digs ahead <caution>)
Is that a picture of the echo chamber where folks play arm chair game developer?
If not, it could be. At least the shown characters know what they are not good at. 🙂
I'm confused, whatchu mean?
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5 minutes ago, Taboo said:
Conclusions like some of these changes are Nerfs while others favor specific playstyles over others?
I'm just asking to be clear what we are allowed to do and say.
You're allowed to say whatever you'd like! The intent behind this is just to remind us that knee jerk reactions do not hold much weight compared to having actually tried out the changes before providing feedback.
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On 3/10/2021 at 10:04 PM, Luminara said:
Still waiting on the rest of the test results.
So I'm gonna redo them with some more defined parameters.
Goals: Test the clear speed (Raw time) and safety (damage taken) per run of the mission simulator with the following:
1) SO only, baseline. Difficulty will always be 0/3 per run for all these to compare.
2) 1 Damage proc per attack where able, all other slotting the same values as SO's.
2) 2 damage procs per attack, all other slotted values the same as SO's
3-5) Measure utility procs where able and record results (repeat this per utility, mainly -Res and +Rech, there are a few relevant mez ones too like adding Stun/Knockdown, etc)
6) On the defense, slotting up the +Regen/Heal IO's is hard to measure, but with something like the "Chance of Heal" procs (Panacea, etc) I can slot them in and count how often they procced, and remove that from the damage taken? This may require some math with the avg regen values to measure with / without the regen IO's to say how much damage was healed but it's doable.
(Example, a set without heals will rely on Health to get by on a Scrapper, at base with 3 SO's they regen 9.93 HPS. With Miracle and Numina, this is bumped to 11.27 HPS. If they average 300s per mission, this is a difference of 2979 hp recovered and 3381 hp recovered (+402), which can make a difference with an attack or two over time... eh? This gets worse comparatively with sets that already have regen or healing but still. I could combine the two factors by measuring how often heal procs go off + factor the regen / the time stat and come to a conclusion)
7) Likewise on defense, I can slot all the Res/Def uniques and see how that bump compares to the damage taken.
8. Combine all but use SO values outside of the procs
9) Combine all with a standardized IO set per power
10) replace relevant procs and sets with purples
A-1) Use one ATO at a time, measure the impact on an SO only build with that
A-2) Use both ATO's as above
A-3~5) Steps 8-10 above but add ATO's
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If I were given the keys to remake Dominators, the first thing I would do is turn Domination into an out of the box 60s rech power that is basically Build-Up / Rage for Magnitude. Remove the need to build up meter to use it, you can use it at your leisure and pop it in order to dominate the competition with the caveat that you do need to juggle it's use and maintain it.
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2 hours ago, Infinitum said:
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Focused Feedback: Power Changes (Build 1)
in [Open Beta] Focused Feedback
Posted · Edited by Galaxy Brain
Air Superiority is a definite standout since it is basically a mez power. It helps that it's mez is often unresisted in terms of the "flopping" animation, and lasts a few seconds while the power casts fast and recharges fast. It has a definite niche!
Compare that to flurry which is twice as slow and only has a 20% chance to inflict a minion-only stun effect for about a second longer than it takes to animate.... why bother? Compare that to if Flurry was a power that was like a melee nuke where you did this to one guy every so often: