BitCook

Either way, and whichever term, an unslotted lowbie is not contributing much to a +4 team in PI 🙂

I have been on a lot of PI teams where people join and sit at the door. Whatever term you want to use for it, no problem 🙂 I'd call it doorsitting, but if you and others don't then no big!

Agreed. If a buff gives you 10% more damage, or reduces resistance by 10% your clear time goes down by that amount. However, the longer it takes you defeat that mob determines how much you value the cost of providing that action. If it takes 2 seconds to speed up the team 10% and the mob will only live for 5 seconds, do you really want to spend 40% of the fight to change the duration of the encounter by .5 seconds? No... probably not. Yes, it's kind of confusing to think of that, but the value of a buff/debuff is often related to how difficult the enemy is to defeat. Buffs are a little different. Certainly because they are longer duration and as you mentioned stay with the player from mob to mob requiring less investment. However, again, in the endgame a lot of them become less and less useful. To Hit? Kind of nice, but most player have solved their acc issues on their own by endgame. Def? Again, sometimes useful, but lots of players have also solved their def issues in the endgame. Damage? Usually wanted, but this falls into the category of once you have enough to quickly defeat the content adding more damage doesn't make them more dead. Recharge? Usually wanted, but many builds work on recharge and already have seamless attack chains by the end game. So speeding them up might not be a huge benefit. This all goes back to characters becoming more and more self sufficient as the endgame approaches. That's not a call to nerf anyone... just an observation that support either in terms of buff/debuff gets steadily weaker as the heroes around the support players get stronger and stronger.

It's pretty common in what I've seen. Usually it's PI team LF2M, any level. So if you're bringing a level 1-10 to a party of +4/8 content... you're not contributing really. So often people don't care what you do. I would agree, being able to take any 8 people is a GREAT strength and wouldn't want to see that change. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't also love to see underperforming ATs find a little bit better home and role. The game used to have that and I do feel there was a time that it had relative class balance and roles while still retaining that core concept. That was before kill speed was through the roof. Again to clarify because people keep associating things to me that I don't believe in, while I would love that to come back, I think it would be the death of the game so no. But, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want to see perhaps ways to enhance control and support to give them a little better role in fast moving teams.

I might agree... but I've not actually advocated nerfs, if anything I've been fighting to prevent a nerf. That's what amusing... but it's okay. Also, expressing an opinion and discussing opinions with actual points is valid. Anything else... well less so.

He's an obvious troll. Just ignore him and leave the discussion to people that actually want to participate and have points to bring up. To clarify, not you Leogunner.

Okay, I think we're done here. I've wanted none of the things you've said. Good luck and perhaps read what people are saying instead of having knee jerk reactions. I literally have been suggesting leaving a thing alone and perhaps helping struggling ATs. Enjoy, have fun and I hope we don't meet in game as I am sure it would be a very unenjoyable experience.

There is some truth there. Thankfully the game is easy enough that even subpar damage dealers can be played or any AT because you like it. However, that does not mean it's balanced. Also, the "groupthink" is that buffs/debuffs are really valuable. That was the case perhaps early in the game and maybe even up to a few episodes before it closed. I've laid out why I don't think that's the case any more. Just like I've laid out why I don't think control powers are really all that useful except solo/small teams. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do think I've at least given why I think it's the case instead of just stamping my feet and demanding anything.

Well of the two of us. I laid out my arguments without petty insults. I actually used logic and laid out my viewpoint, which even if you didn't agree with it, you could have at least read it. It's been a long thread so I'll forgive you for not reading, although given the tone of your posts I am not sure that it would have done much. Cheap insults and witty comments do not make a decent argument. Usually those are vestiges of people who have little to say. However, had you followed why I started here, it was in reaction to nerfing PB + Farsight. My argument has not been nerf everything, nor has it been to bring the game back to a state that it was fifteen years ago... even if it was a far more balanced game at that point. That would be the death of this game. My argument, was to leave viable builds in place for support/control ATs so that there is a reason to play them. That while PB + Farsight was an outlier it wasn't so much of one that it should be gutted. Part of that discussion talked about AT balance. Whether you like it or not, there is a large imbalance due to the kill speed of modern teams. Because it invalidates the things that used to make the ATs different, my suggestion would be to either make those powers more useful, or to give support classes far more survivability/damage to compensate for the fact that the things they actually do, are becoming less and less relevant. So thank you for the cheap insults please take them somewhere else, that would be appreciated.

Force multipliers work because they make your team more effective. So a buff that raises team kill speed by 10% is more valuable on a team that takes longer to wipe out a mob than one that doesn't. In the example I game, the first buff was a three second reduction to the time to kill. However, if the team took 1/3 of the time to kill the mob, the benefit to the buff is a much less impressive 1 second. My contention is that the old live environment was like the 30 second team and our current environment is more like the 10 second team. Changes have been made and power creep has happened. How much is up to you to believe It was an illustration for people wondering why there are some of us disparaging support and controls in today's endgame. It's why some of us feel the way we do. The faster teams get and the more damage they do, the less it matters if you buff/Debuff. Most buffs/debuffs work as a % of damage/resistance/speed etc. However all of them can be boiled down to the effect on clear speed. When clear speed starts getting to the time it takes to cast a buff, there is no point in casting it. I have played Rad a bit and my example was that I can't usually get more than RI out before the mob is dead. I don't have time for another buff... So the value of my RI is what? A tenth of a second? One second faster clear time? If you agree with that, and my anecdotal evidence supports it for me at least, then there is no purpose to play one of those ATs other than you enjoy it... Or exemp a lot, or some other reason than you want to be effective.

I've been talking about this in the Game Balance thread with a number of others. (Here is a link that kind of sums what I feel) I do think that's a huge problem in the game right now in terms of roles and usefulness. However, this is not that topic. So on the issue of making controllers feel more like a controller. Yes, I like this idea. I think it bridges the gap that was created when Doms became a thing. Controllers don't get damage which is really the #1 control so their controls should be on par with dominators. Regardless of how hard/easy it is to achieve permadom, there is plenty of argument to say that Dominators are the superior controller. They should not be. So while I think this proposal does a good job of bridging that gap. My thoughts on the usefulness of controls don't really matter when speaking to that aspect of the AT.

The idea is coming from many (again I can really only speak to myself and the people I've talked with about it) of us who have been playing Support Mains. On most endgame teams, you do not have time to get out any of the "force multiplying" powers that were hallmark to teams back on live. Try playing a Rad anything. You might.... might have time to get a cast of RI out. You certainly won't get much else. As a controller, you may get a singular control in play... although why? If a mob is going to die in 2-5 seconds, what possible use to the team is stunning them before their very quick demise. Several of us have shared experiences and done the following test. Run to a mob with your team, use your support/debuff/controls. See how long the team takes to defeat the mob. Run to the next one and do nothing. Odds are, it's about the same time. The thing about force multiplication is that as the time to kill decreases so does the effects of your multiplication. Say a buff/debuff adds 10% to the entire team's kill speed. That's pretty good! If it took the team 30 seconds to defeat the mob, you might expect 27 seconds to wipe them out with that buff. However, let's go with our steamroller team. They take 10 seconds to wipe the same mob. Now you changed them to 9 seconds. Your value decreases as kill speeds increase. At some point, the kill speed is essentially 1-2 cast times and adding any support/control/aggro management is essentially useless. I have never seen any AT turned down. That is something that I would agree with. However, sometimes that's because you often get teams like: "PI Missions LF2M +4, bring anything." Because they already have 1-2 characters that can solo that content. They could literally care less what you bring. You want to door sit? Okay, no big. Some of it is people who still really believe in the power of support sets. Some is that any 8 heroes will clear anything in the game (in general). I don't know what you are experiencing and the groups you are playing, however, for me and at least some people I have worked with on builds and tips, this is a pretty common scenario.

Hmmm, I don't know if I agree that it is better now. From a variety of powersets to keep interest, yes. From a person power perspective and solo capability, yes. From a diversity perspective, no. There are classes that completely invalidate the need for anything else. That's not good design. From an ease of leveling and options to do so, yes. From a balance perspective, no, I don't think so. So yes, there's a lot to like about the game how it is now. But there was a lot to like in the team dynamic before. ATs had roles and while you didn't need a role to do anything, having something other than DPS made team content easier.

I think you were not around for the beginning of the game. It was never a trinity. However, it was a game where if you wanted to tackle the harder content and be efficient about it, variety helped. You never needed tank/healer/dps, it was unique in this. However, right now, you are trending to one AT, Solo Survivable Damage Dealer. While you can play others, there's little point in doing so. Yes, that's an exaggeration, but it's not too far off.

That's possible... or, like me, we love the class and mostly play them solo. They still are fun to solo. Your kill speed is immaterial and you need the controls to survive. They are also great from like 20-45 in the level curve. Or people are sick of making another damage dealer. I can't say why anyone other than me plays them still. I can say what I see when I do play them though.

I played from launch until about i10/12 then on and off from there. IOs were both a boon and a curse. A boon in that they added build options like few games have or have had. I love that aspect of the game. But they also started the decline of AT roles. Yes, kill speed on a lot of toons at +4/8 solo would be slow, but the fact that there are lots of builds that can is part of the problem. That is at the extreme end, and I'd admit that. However, it doesn't take more than a couple of tricked out toons... maybe they can only handle +3/8 on their own... to basically invalidate the need for anything other than more damage. That is very common. I do PUGs all the time. I play support toons nearly 100% of the time; Controllers/Doms/Defenders/Corruptors. In most groups you can barely get off your -RES debuff before the mob is dead. At those speeds you certainly don't need to use most anything other than damage. That was not how the game used to be. There was time and space for characters to debuff mobs, set up control, and do other things to make missioning interesting and varied. However, the argument I've been trying to advocate has kind of gotten lost. I've said going back would likely be suicide for the game. To many people would be upset and feel like their toons were nerfed into the ground. I am arguing that removing any viable options from those marginalized toons is not a good idea unless you are going to head back to a state where teams needed to kind of work together more than they do now.

You are correct. I did mean that, thank you! I disagree in that it would mean more DPS classes. The game used to have a lot less DPS and survivability. In that meta, control/support was a very vital element in determining team survival. Support sets were more than -RES bots and buffs/debuffs were essential to a well running team. Being able to hold a boss/stun a group was often the difference between success or a wipe. When DPS and survivability gets to the point that there are toons which can clear +4/8 solo, what is the need for Support? We're not exactly at that point, but we're not far off either. Support becomes less valuable when toons continue to get tools to maximize their own survivability, increase their damage, and generally act in a self sufficient manner in nearly all content. Again, I don't see the game ever going back to that point again. To many nerfs/balances would have to happen to get back to those days. However, I do think it's relevant when talking about balance passes that remove viability for support/control classes which are already struggling to find a good place.

So the point of the post was not to call for nerfs to those things... although, frankly it would make the game more balanced if they did. It was to point out that so much has changed in the current environment, that saying "Support ATs should not have easy access to Defense because that wasn't the intent of the class" is not a real valid argument. We're long past the the original intent of the designers of this game and into something different. Different isn't always bad, but expecting certain parts to adhere to outdated paradigms isn't very fair unless you are going to make all classes adhere to outdated paradigms. We have the game we have. Trying to balance on what it used to be is not a good idea. Balancing on what it is and what this team wants it to be is a good idea. However, just for fun: a) Yes. Agreed. b) Again agreed. c) Sure? But usually one AOE after and they are dead anyway. d) Yes. e) Because the old paradigm was that they traded increased damage for survivability. If they can hit softcap, then they're not really giving much up for the additional damage.

Honestly and without sarcasm. There is little min/max reason to make anything other than one of the damage dealers. If you are going for efficiency, at the current point, one of the main damage dealers will always be more valuable than any support toon. The kill speed is high enough that even the king of debuffs -RES just really isn't as important as it once was. With that said, I play lots of support toons because I enjoy them. I try to make them as good as I can to contribute to both a kitted out team and the "average Joes". Would I be better as a damage dealer. Yes. I have more fun on the other toons. That is also true. To get balance, kill speeds need to go down. Which means virtually or by nerfs damage has to come down across the board. If the support style is something that the playerbase and HC devs value, then there has to be a compelling reaason to take 20-30% of your time to do something other than damage. There has to be a reason to take an AT that can't wipe out +4's in a simple attack chain. The only reason to choose such an AT is if you were needed by the playerbase to do the things they already do now... which is casually stroll through most PvE content. If they make that change, yeah... there are going to be a lot of people REALLY upset. When they go from solo +4/8 to maybe managing solo +2/4 I would imagine there would be a huge uproar. Sadly, I don't think the game survives that transition. Which is why I'm kind of in favor of more ways that underplayed ATs can be powerful. Not less.

I have a dichotomy issue when it comes to this. On one side, I LOVE tinkering with builds. I like the numbers, I like seeing what bonuses I can get, I like seeing if I can make ATs do things they really don't. That's a mental challenge and a part of the game I deeply enjoy. I also enjoy playing characters who are IOed out and exemping down to run the missions as a complete character. For me, I don't have any pressures on what content I want to run, I just do things that I enjoy at that point. On the other side, I really miss the early days where each AT had a role and team dynamics played a part in how missions resulted. I liked that team wipes were not uncommon, it gave a challenge to the game. I know that the place that the game is in now, doesn't really have room for support characters unless there are a lot of changes that are going to be made. I guess I don't see the second thing happening or think it's likely. The team seems to have the philosophy of raising the tides for ATs which is fine. It just means that you have to work to make the characters you might enjoy successful.

That's fair. Yes, certainly we are all speaking from personal lenses. Maybe I've just had bad luck, or maybe because I play squishies nearly 100% I see a lot more of that behavior. When you're the tank... well all runs seem to go well, right? 🙂 Hey, I didn't die. Good run people! I can't say. All I can speak to is the groups I've been with, which are mostly LFG groups. I do love that in general if you wanted to play a slower style you can and try to find a static group. I like that this game has room for lots of playstyles. But yeah, *shrug* it's what I've seen of endgame content. Usually if I'm not slotted well, I'm dead and some team leader is porting me to the next encounter, letting me wake up only to die again. It's not... compelling gameplay at that point.

I would agree it WAS core to their identity. I replied in length above. I don't think that design really applies any more. If it does, then many of the recent changes don't make a lot of sense to me.

So I would say two things. (1) I believe this interaction has been around as long as Time has existed as a powerset. So if design intent is the argument, then yes, this is working as designed. (2) I actually agree that the game was designed as a team combination. However, that design is as dead is Pre ED builds are. That paradigm doesn't exist in this game any more. IOs were the first nail in the coffin and the steady power creep was the last. I would agree that there are too many self sufficient toons. a) Tankers should not do damage by the original design. HC has just fixed it so that they certainly do a lot more. b) Blasters should not really have survivability, they were the glass cannons. i24/25/HC has changed that by adding damage and sustainability along with the IOs to make them reasonably durable. c) Nukes should not be an every mob thing, they should have repercussions. d) Snipes should not be fast or in combat. e) No one but Tanks and perhaps Brutes should be softcapping anything I could go on with more, but we have so many things have changed in the game that they're too numerous to list. Those are all massive game changes since Team interactions was important for AT identity. Controllers are my favorite AT, but they are mostly worthless in today's game because of the massive changes that have happened. Some by this team, some by the dev's in live. That's the game we have now. If you are going to pick powers and apply them to a design principle, I would think you have to design to the current environment, not the original intent. The original intent doesn't exist anymore and if the argument is flipping the script is bad, then let's roll all the way back and I'll be way happier because my favorite AT will have purpose again.

A ton. That's a flaw with most support sets, not a knock against PB + Farsight. I have never understood the decision to make most of the DEF/RES buffs from shield sets to be ally only. I always thought that was the wrong decision. But in terms of effects on the game? Not as much as you'd think. The FF/Sonic/Cold player can be giving those numbers early on in the leveling curve. So the values given are not really the issue. The game was designed around some powersets giving other players half of their journey to softcap. Yes, not being able to self buff is huge, but it only affects 1/8 potential teammates. So the power ability of giving that is not really in question. Then it becomes a debate on should Defenders be able to self buff. Not, "is two powers that come late in their build when most players will soon get an incarnate to cover the shortfall anyway" really that unbalanced?

That depends on what experience you want to have. I've done Tinplex with newly minted 50s who have no IOs and just their Alpha slotted. Since there are few tanks/brutes who are going to take aggro or can hold aggro, as a controller you toss out a control to help the team. Within seconds you've attracted a few mobs and dead. Rinse and repeat that several times. Radio teams were better as usually they are total SteamRoller mode, but having a reasonable set of defenses is at least tangingentally related to enjoying late game content and feeling heroic. ITFs are a mixed bag on underslotted squishies. Again, the team dynamic has broken community wide. The expectation is breakneck speed mob to mob, leaving stragglers and teammates behind. If you can't cope with this... then you tend to faceplant a lot. Yes, you can do endgame content underslotted. But if you want to enjoy it, you need to find one of those rare teams that wants to act like a team. You need to hope that you have some builds that will shore up your shortcomings. But I would agree it's possible. Just the community doesn't, in a lot of cases, support not being able to take care of yourself.