dukedukes

Wormhole should be able to TP +3 bosses. Now!!! Pretty please...

I don't know how those powers interact but I've seen this with repel effects. I posted a bug here about it:

I was playing my grav troller with a few pyro control users and noticed mobs getting launched so far they were hitting walls on the other side of the room. It appears to be an interaction between Blast Off and Singularity. Here's a clip: Singularity was set to passive, no pyro pet, only Incendiary Aura was used to trigger Blast Off. You'll see a Marksman at the front of this pack get launched to the back of the room. This is weak compared to what I was seeing with other players involved.

Updated for i28p2. It's an incredible patch for the character. Summary: +Singularity is much easier, consistent, and less frustrating to use thanks to pet commands +Gravity Distortion Field has become worth taking providing great damage mitigation on big pulls

I do have a controller perspective on this, sorry I can't speak to how doms are affected or how to improve it as I'm not familiar, hopefully your concerns can be addressed. The persistent patch is better for scenarios where you have several packs of enemies grouped up in one place, Wormhole gets you to two packs (minus some bosses, haha...) and with the right approach the team could be pulling additional packs. It will take a while to defeat them all and the patch would overall apply more mez than a single 16 target use, I expect at least double the total mez duration over the course of the power, and the mez in this scenario has very high value even on strong teams because it's impossible for tanks to take the brunt of the aggro, there's too many enemies. If you were to go pack to pack, or just two packs max I see minimal benefit to the patch over the one-off for controllers. I do these multi-pull scenarios often so I personally benefit a lot from the patch. There are also scenarios in TF's where you're fighting a bunch of enemies in one place for a greater length of time, like with ITF or Market Crash. On my controller on live I don't take Gravity Distortion Field, it helps mitigate damage in multi-pull scenarios like I described but the patch will do this much better to the point it's worth taking.

The theme of a persistent grav field is a cool choice, functionally this should be superior to the one-off hold as Grav is good at getting a lot of mobs in one place so it can make good use of the duration, I'm on board with this. Apologies to give feedback to something that is not the power being changed but can we fix Wormhole to TP bosses at +3? This is by far the biggest issue with grav control, tons of people have complained about it and no one from what I've seen has a reason against the change.

Grav is thematically awesome so it would be cool to see more related power sets. Trawl effects on dps/tanks is a mistake IMO, axe cyclone being the existing problem child. It's fun but i think it performs a role outside of their AT. It's utility at its core and support/control/hybrid should own it, recall trawl only belonged to a T9 control power til axe cyclone got it, Singularity is better but it feels strange to propagate this to dps/tanks. So I'm against blaster/sentinel getting trawl effects but since there's precedent in axe cyclone I can understand the suggestion. A 15ft trawl wouldn't benefit your attacks anyway (except your cone) if all your aoe's are 15ft+, you would use it for your team or for your support power set. My personal gripe with trawl aside here's some ideas to throw in the mix: Include a TP foe component (like an ST wormhole) into something like your T6 downward slam ST target attack. There's some utility in doubling some damage with possibly moving your target to a more suitable location, good for dealing with runners/stragglers or moving a targeted toggle aoe debuff from a support set to a better position, creative opportunities like that. a location target macro should function properly here in case you have no desire to make use of the TP and be less clunky to use it. Take the concept of propel further and summon multiple projectiles (sharp ones?) instead of a random prop for a different, probably stronger, attack. Think Gilgamesh in fate/stay night using Gate of Babylon (anime reference). Maybe this particular example could be a power set idea on its own but gravity at least plays into this concept.

Annual necro here. This change is a no brainer. Not only does the TP fail but the bosses flop on their butt, slowing down any manual pull after using the power. You're almost better off just doing a regular pull. It's one thing for the power to miss but throwing them on their ass eats up even more time, and if it takes too long to complete the pull the power isn't worth using. I would like to use this power more but I hold back in so many situations because of the inability to pull bosses. I don't know why I'm trying to make a point, I think everyone is on board with change this right?

Yes I'm passionate about TP powers, as well as powers/methods which contribute to gathering mobs in general. It's the main factor other than damage and -res that affects fights when everyone on the team is unkillable, specializing in these types of powers/methods is my preference. 120 sec recharge is territory for being up every other pack depending on your teams speed, 90 sec is much better for this but 120 isn't terrible. I'm talking a pace of 1 pack at a time, if you have fire blasters rotating nukes that's another story. There's also double pull scenarios where it can see effective use but it really depends, on double pulls you bide more time for cd's to come up again. The cooldown approaches 30 sec with all the recharge effects. I've argued the case of the power being effective about as much as I can so I won't drag this on, if you don't agree it's cool. To the points above: dealing with respecs is an understandable concern, among others. It's why my opening statement suggests it's too late to make the change, but I was still interested in the communities perspective.

We're derailing a bit but I agree accessibility is likely more important for COH. My personal taste is different, I would prefer to discover what team compositions work for some difficult content, we have enough alts where we likely have a character that is good for the job, the gripe would instead be playing a character you may not want to play, though there are 8 positions I think you could find one role you like. If a specific 8 man team is required I would see this as a problem, COH should be capable of having a ton of successful team comps. I see this as a more interesting setup for gameplay to happen in. The bloat of buffs from incarnates and other power creep mechanics dirty up the original formula and take away impact from your power sets. Why debuff to hit if you're def capped from barrier? Why use res powers or def powers. Trivializing defenses, end recovery, recharge, mez protection, these buffs are like god mode. It was power creep to give players something new for the sake of being new to keep the lights on and the ball rolling, I don't think the side-effects of trivializing the game was thought through enough, or the devs had no better option. Like the level shift from alpha, you could read this as +4 being removed from the game granted +4 would have issues, seems like many powers are balanced for +3 in terms of magnitudes but you get the idea I assume. Making all this stuff cheap and accessible leads us to this damage meta. Healers have nothing to heal, mez is mostly useless, shields don't matter much, debuffs other than -res generally don't have much impact. Blasters can jump into a pack, eat the alpha, live, and 1 shot nearly everything. It frustrates me people would look over this and embrace their accessibility but that's where we're at and I accept it. It's utility so I don't expect it to be required for your character to function. I guess people don't like TP as a travel power, it's my favourite personally. Not sure if I've ever taken a fly power, not in a decade at least. The problem is less about it being mandatory and more about it being the go to power for any situation where there's spread out mobs, I'd rather see AT's who specialize in controlling mobs to do their job, like a tank taunting, etc. Power pools shouldn't be able to dominate how an entire team engages in a fight, that's too much power.

I do think incarnates do this. I'd prefer them not being in the game, I don't think that battle's winnable though. I feel similarly about sets but I do appreciate the build customization it provides, it's not all bad.

The gameplay you're describing doesn't happen so much in practice. With a coordinated team you can absolutely make use of your aggro and environment for big pulls where Fold Space would serve nearly no purpose but in pugs this isn't my regular experience at least. You do get this more in high level content. Sure many packs are nearly gathered to begin with, and if you're dealing with multiple packs the regular tools start to become more efficient, though FS still has occasional use here. I think packs that are not grouped are more common than you're suggesting, I do use this power on most characters and there's a good amount of opportunities, but I'm happy to disagree here. Yes mobs often come into melee eventually but the wait could be long enough to have impact, fights don't last that long, so seconds count. Your aoe hits 10 targets instead of 4 targets, that's a lot more damage, less need to ST LT's or spam more AOE, more time ST'ing the bosses.

Zephyr fits well in the TP powers, you could get 3.75% ranged def and 5.64% aoe def if you were to get the 3 powers that accept zephyr. Maybe not the right choice depending on your priorities but this offsets the loss for me at least as I depend on these powers. Preference is fine, I like going into pulls au naturel as well as with Fold Space. They're different experiences, but I believe one is much more efficient, though how much depends on the circumstances. I'm likely biased in valuing the ability to group mobs higher than most, I accept that. Fold Space can be used mid-battle, in situations where more than one pull happens you save Fold Space for when the target count reaches ~16. If there is 2+ packs in the fight using the power early is likely a mistake unless both groups of mobs are very spread out, you'd jump on the tighter packed group initially if given the choice. There's a combination of reasons that put Fold Space on top over a corner pull. Time inefficiency like you mention, dependence on map layout and mob layout. Fold Spaces requirements are much easier to meet, it's the default response to any pull where mobs are a bit spread. I like tanks managing the positions of mobs through aggro, LOS or taunting for the -range. This is what I play tankers for. Sometimes you get a grav, warshade, or mind, etc, who takes on some of the mob management but you don't run into these toons ALL the time. Fold Space? It's certainly in a much higher percentage of the teams you're in. This accessibility and high value utility is a problem from my perspective. I like the power and what it does but I agree with you a fair bit. The power is admittedly disruptive and dilutes what a regular pull is - scrappers taking out stragglers and bosses, tankers pulling in distant mobs, this gameplay is removed for that pull and you're left with an immediate AOE fest. I think an AOE fest can be fun too but the difference is how often you encounter Fold Space. It's like if you play with a grav, odds are Singularity will pull the mobs in and wormhole is going to deliver more mobs to you, it changes how you play and dilutes the gameplay in ways but you don't run into gravs all the time. You have your regular vanilla gameplay and every now and then it gets spiced up by the AT's who have these sorts of effects, I think this is ideal, Fold Space goes against this since anyone could have it.

Hmm maybe there's a reason you're taking a power on all of those characters? Almost because... it's so good? You only prove my point. This is a concern I've had for a while but paint it however you like, you're correct according to you. It's funny to you maybe only because the proposed solution is a revert of a change you might actually be against, this is why I say the damage is already done. What if a top-tier power, existing or not, themed perfectly for some AT became available to everyone? Do you feel like your AT's identity or value would be reduced? If not, fine, but this is where I disagree. And yes I understand no one had Fold Space before it's inclusion but TP themed power sets missing out (or cheapened for Warshades) on it when it's a top tier TP power seems like a mistake.

This is a good counterpoint, in practice you can stand next to one of the bosses and it doesn't matter so much if a boss is not TP'd, reducing the downside. A tank could taunt to get a straggler boss pulled in, so the TP magnitude is to a degree negligible in practice for melee users. It's interesting to know, I may make a suggestion to make Wormhole more effective regarding its TP magnitude, it is a serious pain when Wormhole leaves targets behind. I'm not so happy with the mob pulling meta being accomplished with a power anyone can use, I am preferring to value AT identity over accessibility, and would disagree on the power being balanced or weak so I respectfully disagree on the nerf part, but I do understand people enjoying the power and wanting nice things. It would be nice if the mob placement was better, same deal with Wormhole. If you stand against a north or east facing wall the mobs will stack perfectly on top of each other. The conga line prefers to point northeast from my testing. I wouldn't necessarily recommend standing against walls using the power since it can throw your team off balance but it's good sometimes.

This power has great utility for TP'ing teammates but I never see the TP foe part of this power be relevant. There's times where I wouldn't mind TP'ing a single enemy where I want them and would use this power, unfortunately it will simply fail in most cases. This power has some cost in its use, it has a 2 sec interrupt time (enhanceable) and a 3 sec activation time with an accuracy check. So you may two slot this power if you intend on using the enemy TP part of this power heavily. At minimum it would be great to see this power be capable of TP'ing +3 LT's consistently. Being capable of TP'ing bosses would make it much more useful. Fold Space and Wormhole have a TP magnitude of 4.1, which can TP which can TP everything but bosses at +3, and are AOE. I don't see why a single target enemy TP is so weak. Why have this enemy component at all on Teleport Target if it's so weak?

Any mob moving skill is a double-edged sword for melee. It pulls enemies together for more effective aoe's but can pull enemies away from you. A lot of melee players like to go for stragglers, but if you're playing with a grav or a consistent fold space user you should be able to adapt, and predict. Would you like to single target an LT off in a corner or hit target cap on cones? Easy answer for me. Try combat teleport, it's a life changer for melee. edit: Here's the combat tp macro since I suggested the power /macro_image "Teleportation_Teleport" "ctptarget" "powexec_location target combat teleport"

I'm a bit biased around the teleport pool because I think all the teleport powers are great. Combat TP is ridiculously good for melee, and pretty good for everyone else, plus you can slot Blessing of the Zephyr if you build for positional defense and need kb resist. Team Teleport would be the exception there, I guess MM's could use it. Making it weaker is an option, personally I'd rather see it be more exclusive but still be effective, at least regarding teleport magnitude. Which has an accuracy check and zero range reduction, yes. A massively inferior version of Taunt. Not an equivalent whatsoever. And Shadow Slip does what? Secondary effects existing are cool and add some flavour, but if you're trying to argue Fold Space is weak I don't agree. Personally for even Wormhole the stun is counter-productive because failed TP's can still stun, so the mob is walking around aimlessly at a distance when I really want the mob where I used Wormhole at, I can't even leash it til the stun is over. The stun is often a downside for how I like to play but I live with it. Sure you can pick up some (typically) awful power pool powers that let you do what other AT's do and it doesn't nullify their existence, great. The main argument is it's too good, tons of people use it, I think it's clear the power is overtuned.

I am suggesting a nerf here which is definitely unpopular and there would be too much outrage to make the change I suspect, so I think the damage was already done long ago now, but I'm interested in other peoples thoughts regardless. Let's list what is so great about Fold Space: groups up a bunch of mobs close together, naturally 100ft range. quite big 16 target cap mag 4 tp. speaking out of ignorance but I believe this means bosses are consistently teleported, this is what i see in practice. teleport target is mag 2!!! and takes like 4 seconds to use 2 minute cooldown, can be brought down to a 30-40 sec cd. Quite good! Seems a bit too good for a power pool power, it's basically identical to Shadow Slip which I assume was changed at the same time... Shouldn't something like this power be restricted to relevant AT's? Warshade, Grav control. I think the power cheapens the AT's who get teleport powers as part of their core power sets. The numbers assigned to Fold Space as we know it suggests someone wanted a very strong power out of Fold Space, nothing like most power pool powers that are shadows of what you would get on the right AT. I accept there are some outliers in power pools, like hasten. I think it would be nice to see control/support/hybrid AT's own the types of powers that maneuver mobs, whether it's Wormhole, Singularity, Telekinesis, Hurricane, Repulsion Field, the new black hole behaviour on beta, etc... hopefully we get more of these powers too as I think they're a ton of fun. Yes Fold Space is good on a tank but tanks have an incredible herding power in the game at their disposal: Taunt. Leave the crowd control to AT's it makes sense on. As a control/support I cannot get the equivalent of Taunt, but tankers and everyone else gets one of the strongest mob moving moves in the game. I do use provoke but it requires extra steps; out-range/LOS. Being devils advocate for a moment I think this power is fun (because it's powerful), and no one who uses it would want to lose it. It could lower peoples enjoyment of the game losing it, but that's the same with all nerfs. The people who enjoy using this power should simply play an AT that has it in a core power set if it were removed from the teleport power pool.

If black hole is meant to be like a 20ft targeted aoe axe cyclone the cooldown is excessive. At 170% global recharge (95% on power) the cooldown is close to 30 sec which isn't too bad but I think only people going for perma-fade would hit this. Reaching 30 sec with moderate global recharge (~120%) would feel better to invest into to me, that should be around a 90 sec cd instead of 120.

It lasts much longer than 2 seconds, it's 15 seconds, maybe reduced by purple patch, i haven't tested. What you're observing is only enemies near your target are affected by the power when it is initially used, the enemies stick together and don't move much, meanwhile other enemies entering what is the black hole radius are not affected by black hole at all. The power would be much stronger if it affected new targets entering its radius like with Singularity. Given the cooldown and only 20 ft radius I think black hole could be afforded this behaviour. As is Singularity is infinitely better than black hole, affecting new enemies might get black hole measured up to Singularity's ankles. Regarding immobilize repel/trawl work best with aoe immobilize powers anyway, so you'd probably want one using this.

I think he mostly refers to the radius increase as it lowers all our aoe damage by 12%-23% regardless of enemy count. The target cap increase existing gives aoe's 20% more damage and cones get 33% more damage assuming you hit max targets on b5 test.

Updated graph for b5 https://www.desmos.com/calculator/vmtwg7joem Compared to test b4 cones received 34% more overcap effectiveness at max targets and AOE's got a 17.5% reduction at max targets. For the impact on overall damage calc aoe received a further 2% reduction at max targets and cones have a 4% increase at max targets. The average damage reduction (vs random amount of targets) is around a 30% loss for aoe attacks:

I read in the code of conduct: Do not cheat or abuse exploits ... 2. This includes the use of scripts and programs to automate gameplay I infer from this scripting is fine if it does not automate gameplay, so what constitutes gameplay? I'll offer two things I've considered scripting: Playing an emote based on some condition (haven't touched the keyboard in 1 minute - play an afk emote) Writing multiple chat messages in a sequence (maybe a countdown, or giving info for some encounter) Would one or both of these be considered automating gameplay and be a violation of the code of conduct?

Are you content with "across the board AOE tanker base damage reduction"?. I contextualized my statement by mentioning "tanker aoe attacks", unless we are writing law here I don't think arguing semantics is so interesting.