dukedukes

I agree, it seems haphazard that some categories get a ton of procs while others get very little. There is an argument for things like def debuff or slow receiving a needed boost from procs, if you look at blaster sets the sets with these secondary effects are generally weaker than say, fire, which gets very little procs, so it serves as a slight balancing mechanism. This is a bit of a narrow view though. For sure, there's still some good decision making even if you mostly fill everything up with procs. I wouldn't say it's very interesting but it's decent. Yes I don't think these AT's should ever be meta for these things unless their primary purpose becomes very useful for some content. I'm not a fan of these AT's leaning on procs in order to feel impactful. If they were ever hurt by proc changes their sets damage output should seriously be revisited in response. Controllers specifically have Containment which procs do not interact with at all yet you still see controllers lean on procs over a double damage mechanic... this smells very off to me. The magnitude procs are superior to other slotting options gets ridiculous fast for some powers. This is my biggest gripe, I want to make difficult decisions building a character. Ideally sets, procs, and special enhancements all offer something you want. With the meta mostly being damage output procs are too easy of a choice to make. The meta isn't the fault of procs necessarily, they're just the obvious solution to the meta, it's more a problem of power creep which is a bigger issue.

I've heard the devs want to change procs in some way, so I assume the community consensus is procs create some problems we could use some solutions for. I would like to present some problems I personally observe about damage procs and hear any you have, as well as discuss whether the problems are valid. I'd prefer to avoid discussing solutions, I'm more interested in what the community thinks are problematic about procs. I'll state that I do like damage procs existing but I recognize they are overused and create issues. Here's my list of observed problems and a basic justification: No diminishing returns Add a proc and you just get more damage linearly. Two damage enhancements receive DR/ED adjustments but six damage procs do not Can make a power meant to do a small amount of damage do a lot of damage This makes power sets do good damage by coincidence and is difficult to balance Benefit heavily from global recharge as it's ignored by the proc rate formula I know it used to use global recharge and was changed, but this is still a problem to me. The recharge downside is simply bypassed by global recharge. Problems related to power slot competition: Many set bonuses are weak while others are very strong Set bonuses could use more opportunities to be competitive with procs There is not much use in enhancing mez and other enhancement categories like range These are enhanced here and there, but I'd like to see it be more impactful to compete with procs "Meta" builds don't care about any enhancements other than damage as they're built like glass cannons This means barely any slot competition and lots of procs. This is a bigger issue than procs alone but it would be nice if meta builds had more competition for slotting. Barrier I think is a big reason for this.

If I see someone run ahead and solo a pack with confuse when the purpose of the team is to get xp it's not exactly a welcome sight. If confuse is used while the team is fighting the pack it's not a big deal at all, the non-linear xp falloff is forgiving enough.

Combat TP changed the game for me. Move to an enemy, a good pbaoe/cone location, a quick escape, map navigation here and there. Lots of creative uses. Grav control is my favourite set and has some game changers. Wormhole was mentioned but Singularity is the big one. Repel powers paired with Singularity is some next level stuff. I get comments nearly every time I play gravs so I think this resonates with people. It's a hard set to be great with though. Hasten, which is news to no one. It can enable a lot of things like perma-powers or better attack rotations. Taunt is amazing if used well. Good for grouping mobs as they will run closer to you, the distant enemies aren't hitting your squishy teammates as a bonus.

While the poison thread is bumped I will mention grav/poison/mace has become my favourite poison character (i have a 50 fire/poison corr and 41 def as well), but very much a late bloomer as set bonuses allow you to survive nearly any alpha. Jump into a pack while TP'ing singularity where you'll land, lay poison trap. You don't necessarily bring much damage directly though a ton indirectly. With sing grouping the mobs tight you get max value on your debuffs, holds, and damage as well as for your entire team. Easily one of my top characters.

Controllers mitigate danger, sort of like a tank but on a bigger scale. Treat every mission like you would a fire farm and I think you'll find a use for mez. Power creep has damaged standard pack to pack gameplay, we need something like 50 to 100 mobs for a challenge, with some caveats. Lower level gameplay sees many opportunities for mez use as well since most on the team lack the games biggest power creep mechanics. Don't invite any 50's and see how well you do.

Let's focus on results, if you want to amend something to the "Concerning this forum..." sticky we should come up with a strong piece of guidance that can help prevent the issues we see. The points you listed aren't quite strong enough to my eye because they get into grey areas: 1. Dev time mentions. This is a grey area issue because sometimes the community has enough expertise to identify an orange as an orange. If you want the entire game to be destructible it's just impossible due to the effort required. This can help the conversation go in a new direction that may actually be possible. There are absolutely cases where people overuse this argument, but how would you phrase guidance to discern between these two cases? Here's what I came up with: 2. We are not voting. Based on the way the sticky is written devs actually value activity for suggestions, which could include vote posts, they mention not responding to a post will implicitly devalue the suggestion as it receives less activity. You should argue against the specific content of the sticky if you feel strongly about this, or an amendment for not allowing the "i dislike this" posts. 3. Shooting down ideas is just not a thing. I feel like positive intent covers this. If you identify a conflict and tell OP the issue it shouldn't be interpreted as "shooting down", you just present a problem with or without a potential solution and see if OP can work their idea around it. You shouldn't have to bend over backward looking for solutions for someone elses idea just to bring up a problem. It's possible to raise criticism with positive intent. This is the kind of friction a sub-forum like this is necessarily going to have. Reading through the sticky I think it does a good job of setting the stage. I don't agree with the GM's interpretation of topic activity being important but it's a small gripe from me.

My visibility suggestion and GooglyMoogly's idea address the potential ideas we could be missing out on, that's all. It's not perfect. I don't know how you could foster more constructive conversation without an increase in moderation and more rules. Yes but it's unclear if using the existing hide option reaches the desired effect. If it does then we should have this in a sticky to increase awareness.

I agree, I think you would see people make topics mirroring the topics we can't respond to. My original suggestion for this was a mod only visibility setting for topics (like the hide option). Something is better than nothing though, so I'd be fine with the GM's idea.

We can't influence peoples expectations on a first impression, there's no real opportunity. Having a reactionless and reply free option like GooglyMoogly mentioned is a good alternative for those who understand (or find out) their ideas will be criticized. Some of us enjoy talking through an idea and I believe this exchange adds value. I specifically have made suggestions here only to understand how the community feels about an argument I have as I felt it was too late to implement the suggestion, but if I saw the community understood and agreed with my perspective then maybe there's a chance for a somewhat drastic change. It can be easier to convince a dev of a change as they are likely more system and balance minded, more logical basically. I can argue a case to people like this much easier than others, but the community is ultimately the recipient of the change and have to be okay with it to a degree.

It's not analogous because art can exist independently, a more analogous situation would be debating whether to hang the art you described in your own home. Suggestions here are potentially integrated into a system we all interact with so we should be very critical of what's in this sub-forum. If you think devs alone can identify bad ideas I wouldn't be so sure, the devs themselves have mentioned they like to hear different opinions from the community and that's exactly how this sub-forum is structured.

I don't think devs would be so willing to share their opinion because it can appear as a promise to implement the suggestion if they like it but that decision isn't necessarily up to them, it's likely up to the team, they also can't guarantee if it could ever be done due to other priorities. I know some devs (not COH related) who get excited and share a lot of thoughts and ideas and honestly it's annoying because it's false promise after false promise. These devs lose credibility and respect to some extent. It might seem backwards but it's good if devs are not so open about supporting specific ideas, at least until it's implemented or guaranteed to be. If there is still room for arguments and facts it can only help to test the idea further, but there is a point where the conclusion becomes subjective and the argument should end then. Does the OP have to engage with any arguments? I agree it's not required but it can help the idea if OP needs to bring some clarity to their suggestion.

Making that info generally available in a sticky would help. Even better if on the topic submission you had a toggle for "mod only" visibility, very similar to "hide topic".

A private or mod only suggestion option would be good to not lose out on ideas, this would address what appears to be the OP's main point of attracting more suggestions. You do need slightly thick skin and somewhere from a decent to strong understanding of the game to handle the feedback you'll get.

It's nice for the tank to get a few seconds lead time over the team to group up mobs that tend to run into melee and getting at least one taunt out on mobs that don't. If the tank leaves like 10 or 15 sec early they're just not a very good tank IMO. It is what it is, try to have fun cleaning up the scraps. It's not just tanks that are guilty of this. I do it playing a fire blaster to keep nuke on CD as much as possible, and nuking a pack no one else is attacking is a more optimal use of a nukes damage, I at least kill the bosses too. The worst case I've seen is confuse controllers running ahead solo wiping over half the pack with confuse, goodbye xp...

I agree for Detention Field, I can't find a use for it, but the other powers are in a good spot IMO. I wrote a Grav/FF guide (in controller section if you want to find it) that utilizes Repulsion Field as its second best power for grouping mobs. It's mostly good thanks to Singularity making RF easier to use. I'll try an FF corruptor some day to see how good RF can be without sing, I know it won't be remotely close but I'm still curious.

Yeah the 10ft version given to blasters is strange... I wouldn't think blasters would get this at all because the 10ft radius doesn't really benefit them. Melee could have used this a bit to hit more targets with cones, it would have been usable, but still the cooldown is way too long.

Black Hole is not for nukes, it can still benefit 15 ft or less AOEs and cones, so there is a purpose to the power. I agree it's too weak though. I would like to see a pseudo-pet persistent trawl effect that lasts a few seconds at least similar to singularity, same radius (20ft), and a shorter cooldown (120sec -> 90sec). I don't understand the 1frame or conditional intangible part, unless it serves a purpose it should really just go in the bin.

Pylons are equal level so you get full -res value. Pylons also have 87% regen resistance so anything doing -regen will be undervalued with these tests. It's an example of why pylons are not a perfect test, but it's something.

Just a grav perspective here: You need to use Sudden Acceleration on Singularity to disable its knockback, Overwhelming Force doesn't do the same thing but it might disable the KB on sings Propel? I don't know for sure. I don't use Overwhelming Force and it doesn't cause a problem. You may want Overwhelming Force on Power Blast instead as it looks like it'll knockback. I assume you are familiar with Singularities trawl effect? You want the pet in the middle of the group of enemies so they all get grouped up with sing. You can use goto commands for this now with the latest patch, but Teleport Target is more consistent and accurate, so I'd recommend getting it. You would want to make use of the pet stay command after the TP so it doesn't try to move around. This is the strongest thing a grav can do so you should try to capitalize on it.

It's not that powers like Axe Cyclone shouldn't exist, I'm arguing for classifying it as a support power. Using repel or kb powers to group mobs is a synergy for everyone on the team, it seems like a control/support role should be doing this. The change to Black Hole mimicking Axe Cyclone I thought was a great change and I argued for it to be buffed, I'd like to see more of these powers be created but with the classification I'm arguing for in mind. Melee and other AT's can have repel powers but with reduced effectiveness like the blaster secondary repel powers (arguably a bit better). So, the fun can exist, you just have to play an AT that owns the effect to do so at full strength. It's the same reasoning that will drive you to play any particular AT, tanks for tankiness, blasters for nukes, etc.

Of course people like it, it's too strong! People like strong things. You should understand my perspective is about balance and maintaining AT integrity, popularity and thematic intuition (axe cyclone is barely thematic but your suggestions are) are low on my values list. Before HC all the repel powers belonged to control/support sets and it should have stayed this way. Single target or a small cone repel wouldn't be a big deal, it's typical for AT's to get weak versions of things from other AT's but Axe Cyclones 15 ft radius and ~7 sec cd (after recharge bonuses) is wayyy beyond this. I've never seen anyone else do it either, just me, but it's very strong. Hopefully more try it over time, I wrote a guide to help bring attention to it. I can talk all day about how good Repulsion Field is, there's a lot of depth and challenge to using it well. If a power makes another power more effective I'll stick to calling it a synergy.

Axe Cyclone was a mistake, not sure how the devs feel about it these days but the power breaks AT identity IMO. It's too much utility for a DPS/melee AT. Using it as a precedent for more DPS AT's getting trawl is part of the disease this change created. More support AT sets having trawl/repel effects is cool, though nothing should be more effective than Singularity's trawl, being Grav's t9 power. There's a decent number of these powers now but a few more wouldn't hurt IMO, here's the actual repel/trawl powers for reference: Singularity Black Hole Hurricane Repulsion Field Telekinesis Axe Cyclone (my designer brain had a hard time typing this one) kins Repel is knockback, i'd put that in a different camp but it comes close-ish to the same purpose. Same for sonics repulsion power. There's some other repel powers but they're goofy and not nearly as useful, though still fun. Grav does not need more trawl powers, it already has the strongest one. I use Repulsion Field as much as possible on my Grav/FF character, the power becomes god-like if you use it to push mobs together instead of further apart, and is incredibly more effective paired with Singularity. Hard to use but there's huge payoff if used well. If you use a scatter/fear power you counter the downside with a control/immob power. This creates synergy which is arguably a good thing. Balance wise these scatter powers should be made stronger than other powers due to their downside. If you counter the downside you capitalize on their increased strength. I'm a grav main and I use dimension shift when I get in over my head to become immune to damage. I wouldn't mind if the power changed, like if it did more than an immobilize, but the phasing it does is unique and should stay IMO.

Yup, seems like knockback and repel modify Blast Off behaviour.

These distances are too big for melee to use it, it's definitely not a 10 to 15 feet adjustment, that's what a tankers -range gets you. We're looking at a distance of 60 feet with 25% -range in an average case to do an out-range pull instead of 80 feet right now. The suggestion is a marginal improvement, I don't consider this overreach. The large movements are still necessary, a 25% -range slightly lowers the distance and should (not always) allow for you to still be in range of other targets so you're not sitting on your hands during the pull. Melee would prefer any other version of taunt.