Cyclone Jack

100% This. If the Roles matched the Character Creation Playstyles, then I wouldn't have a problem with this. I'd still think it was dumb, since it doesn't solve anything, but I wouldn't have a problem with it. The issue is that it sends a conflicting message to new players, and even existing players, as it attempts to shoehorn every basic AT into precisely 1 role, while EATs fill precisely 3 roles. This is a completely arbitrary decision and does not reflect the game in any way, and in fact, goes against the design of many ATs, especially villain ATs that were designed to be multi-role ATs. The irony is that its called Role Diversity while simultaneously removing the diversity of the ATs.

What sorcery is this!? I had no idea you could do this. (Granted, it took me forever to figure out how to infiltrate the opposing faction in Praetoria)

Some of this may be repeat info from what some others may have said. I tried to go through the entire character creation, tutorial, 1st few levels as someone unfamiliar with the game. Origin Primal Earth / Praetorian Earth: Primal and Praetorian should probably be emphasized more than Earth. Praetorian Earth: Update to: "You can leave Praetoria at level 20 to either be a Hero of Paragon City or a Villain of the Rogue Isles." Perhaps mention the Origin Power in the Origin description box. Maybe also mention that Origin has little impact on a character and is mostly thematic. Playstyle Tank: Mention something about aggro management, since that is really what separates other armored ATs from Tanks. Crowd Control: This mentions "Debuffs enemies when possible" but Dominators don't use debuffs. Archetype Since Role Diversity is not mirroring the roles listed under Playstyle, it might be a good idea to highlight the intended Role for each AT on the AT screen to better inform both new and old players what the intended Role is for each AT. Perhaps change the text color of the role to yellow. Scrapper: Change "Critical strike" to "Critical Strike"? Peacebringer/Kheldian: Would it be worth mentioning Quantums somewhere in the description? Shadowstar didn't mention anything about them and the 1st enemy I ran into in my 1st mission was a Quantum. I forgot Kheldians don't have an option for the tutorial. 🤣 Register Tutorial Zone Pop-up: Change from yellow to red: Breakout and Breakout (Villain). Outbreak Remove P2W Vendor? This could confuse new players; I would at minimum remove XP Bonuses since those are a trap for new players. Athletic Run and Origin Power: Add to Tray by default (or see below) Sergeant Hicks talks about 'Training' enhancements. This should probably be updated since these cannot normally be purchased (outside of a Supergroup Base) and I haven't seen them drop in ages (were they removed completely from the drop table?). Trainers Here's an odd one. Would it be possible add a Trainers tab to the Contact drop down? Prismatic Aether Would it be possible to add a pop-up for when the player receives their 1st Prismatic Aether, similar to when they get their 1st Tip or Salvage? Athletic Run and Jetpack Is it possible to add these as Mission Rewards during the Tutorial, but also grant them to players who skip the Tutorial or select Galaxy City? If yes, then I would grant Athletic Run for completing Officer Flint's mission, and have him explain that it uses a good amount of Endurance, so it might be a good idea to turn it off during combat. For the Jet Pack, perhaps add it as a blinky to the door mission, similar to temp powers granted during Mayhem/Safeguard missions (this can also be done in the Breakout mission with Jenkins).

It looks like they are doubling-down on this. If this is the case, AT LEAST make the roles match what is in the Character Creator. I cannot believe this is being overlooked! It boggles my mind, especially when they're putting so much focus on New Player Experience.

I spent some time thinking on some of this. Tranquilizer - Would it be possible to add -Spd, -Rech to this power? Chilblain does this with Ice, and giving these debuffs to both Sleeps would fit thematically; they are both powers that would leave the enemies groggy and sluggish. Also, it would give the power additional utility vs Bosses and the such. Cryo-Freeze Ray - What if when you used Cryo-Freeze Ray on an enemy affected by Sleep (or even specifically Tranq), it Holds the target as usual, but also does a 10-15 second non-enhanceable AoE Immobilize; this Immobilize could do negligible or even no damage (thus no IO proccing), and could even be a smaller radius than normal AoE control powers, perhaps 10-15'. Add some flavor text of, since the target is not moving, you're able to focus the beam more accurately at one location, allowing the effects to spread to nearby enemies. This would solve a few issues. First, it adds a minor Immobilize to the set, helping players who aren't as comfortable with Sleeps to contain enemies within Smoke Canister. Second, it frees up some space for the L2 power. Speaking of... Sleep Grenade - I hate that this power is available at L2; that singular aspect is holding this power back, IMO. As has been mentioned, the pseudo-pet is really what made this power shine, but that came with a long 40s Recharge that shouldn't be on powers available at that low of a level. If this were a L6 or L8 power, then going back to the previous design would be perfect. But the only power in the set that can be moved to a L2 power without significantly affecting the design of those powers is Cloaking Device. With Stealth available at L4 from the Power Pools, maybe getting it at L2 wouldn't be too bad? If Sleep Grenade and Cloaking Device are swapped, then Sleep Grenade can go back to the 40s pseudo-pet. And if Cryo-Freeze Ray can combine with Tranquilizer, then the set gets a minor AoE early in the build. Granted, I'm not a huge fan of a L2 Stealth, but honestly, that's infinitely better that a near-useless 6s Sleep Grenade.

Overall, the fixes and adjustments I feel are all well done, with the exception of Sleep Grenade which still doesn't feel good, but for different reasons this time. Now, I'm perfectly fine with it being a Sleep, and at L50, once slotted, I think the power is pretty good, as you can get the recharge down and the duration up; and I feel that this opens up additional tactical value that isn't seen in other Control sets. The problem is still on the low level experience. The Sleep is so short that it just doesn't feel like a meaningful power. I understand why it was updated in this way, to keep the Recharge short enough so that the power can be used every fight, but not allowing the Sleep to be near-perma without heavy slotting. My question is, would making it a 10.25s Sleep across the board be too powerful (ie, no scaling duration)? Because starting out its only 6 seconds, and that feels almost pointless. To be honest, the power feels like a mid-to-late level power that you can pick up as early as level 2, but then you move it off to the side until you actually reach those mid-to-late levels when the power finally becomes somewhat useful. And, honestly, I'm not sure what the solution is, because this is a tough thing to balance. Like I said, you want to keep the duration and recharge to where the power can use used just about every fight, while also not making to too powerful in the early game. I think this is why most sets use an Immobilize, because you can have the longer duration that feels impactful, yet you're not preventing the enemies from attacking; whereas Sleep prevents enemies from attacking, so it can easily trivialize content.

Question, did you go through the tutorial with just the Sleep Grenade? And if so, how was it? For Arsenal/Traps would you take Web Grenade or Caltrops alongside Sleep Grenade at level 1?

A little late, but I just submitted a Silent Symphony mod. I've got a buddy that gets a headache from the default sounds so our group hasn't been playing any Symphony characters. I already had a silent sound file for the Arctic Air/Ice Sword loop, so I repurposed it for the entire Symphony suite. This will, of course, cause the enemy versions to also be silent.

Interesting. Yet the Mastermind, who's primary power ability is damage, and who has a weaker support secondary than the Corruptor, and who has an inherent designed to make them more Tanky, is somehow considered "Support". That's odd. How can one AT who primarily does damage but has a weak Support secondary be labeled as Support, but another AT who primarily does damage but has a good Support secondary not be labeled as Support? It almost seems like the CoH ATs don't fit into a simple role-based label. I also love that Arachnos Soldiers are labeled as Support...simply because of their built-in Leadership Pool (also in their secondary, I might add). Wow! Such support! 🤣 And the AT I described above is an Ice/Ice/Ice Blaster, which often appeared in all those "Top 5 Controllers" lists back on live.

And what of the Corruptor, with the exact same powersets, powers, slots and build? What role would this character be: A single target immobilize, multiple single target holds, two AoE Sleeps, two AoE Slows, and an AoE Knockdown?

Apparently because of arbitrary reasons. H/VEATs must fill three roles, and basic AT must be limited/shoehorned to fit one role. Because this will help teach new players about how diverse the ATs are...somehow?

From the first week until the last week, Liberty was my home. My main, by far, was an Ice/Ice Blaster named Bitterfrost, which is who I always gravitated to, though I had a few other fun characters I played from time to time, like Jackson Frost (Ice/Ice Tank), Contessa Frost (Bot/Trap MM), Sand Wraith (Dark/DS Tanker), Choppa Broccoli (Kin/Rad Def), and Richard Simmons (Mind/Emp Con).

As far as 2XP from P2W, I'm going to guess that new players probably won't know that's a thing, at least for a little while, unless someone tells them or they see some people standing around the vendor and then they take the time to look through everything. And if they do go 2XP on their 1st character, then they'll be in for a rude awakening eventually (reminding me of the 1st appearance of the Winter Lords in which everyone PLed like crazy, but then had no Inf to slot their characters 🤣). (On an aside, I have an SG specifically so I have access to TOs in the early game 😄) The problem with SOing a character at 20 or 25 or whatever, and then keeping them SOed throughout the leveling process boils down to Inf. There is absolutely no way a new player will be able to keep up with that, and the Homecoming devs are aware of that (thus this feature). And you are correct, we don't want to add more Inf to the game; really the opposite needs to happen by adding more Inf sinks, but at the higher levels, IMO. That's why I suggested cutting the costs of low-level DOs and SOs. No extra Inf is being added to the game (the same amount drops), and that extra Inf saved is going directly back to the Vendors for more DOs and SOs. Being able to fully DO a character around the L10-15 range and then fully SO in the L25-30 range would be a huge boon to the new player experience. And at the same time, it would have 0 impact on veterans who seed their new characters millions of Inf and then IO out at L22. Also, apologies to the GMs if this is too off-topic, but Cobalt's explanation sort of went into the SO and Inf side of things, so I feel this is still touching on that.

The more I think about this, the more I dislike it. First off, as has been stated throughout the thread, the Roles are all wrong. In fact, calling this "Role Diversity" while ignoring the diversity of the ATs themselves is a disservice to what makes CoH so unique. IF, and this is a big if, IF this must be built around Roles, then the Roles used *must* match what is in the character creator. If a player creates a new character, clicks on Support, then picks a Corruptor, its safe to assume that they would probably think that their character would fit the Support Role. Second, outside of a tiny amount of end-game content, nothing in CoH forces a minimum team size. All TFs/SFs (and even Non-Incarnate Trials), to the best of my knowledge, can be started with any number of players; some are even designed to be ran with as few as 3 or 4 players. Heck, you can solo TFs if you want to. Forcing a minimum team size goes against what makes CoH so unique. Third, if the goal is to help new players get some Inf, while also adding some more PAs to the market, why not just add a bonus reward of 1 PA to TFs/SFs, obtainable once per character every 18 hours (or w/e the time frame is), regardless of the team composition? Also, just giving a new player a PA does nothing by itself. I would guess that most new players won't know the value of the PA, nor will they think "I can sell this on the AH". Additionally, since TOs were removed so long ago (which I still consider to be an abysmal decision, specifically because it leads directly to the issue this feature is attempting to solve), and since one of the main goals is to help new players have the Inf to SO their characters, why not just rescale the cost of DOs/SOs? For example, a L10 Acc TO is 1,056 Inf whereas a L10 Acc DO is 4,214. That's 4x the cost for 2x the buff, and the SO is 12,672, 12x the cost for 4x the buff. On top of that, spending all of your measly Inf on a handful of DOs early on (because let's be honest, there's no way a new player is going to be able to keep up with DOs early game, let alone SOs), only to outlevel them so quickly, will most likely cause the player to feel that they wasted the Inf on those Enhancements. I would recommend cutting the costs of all Enhancements in half up until L20 or so, then scale the prices back up to the current price at L50.

100% this. CoT in the mid game were always so much nastier than the end game mobs. A Ruin Mage with 2 Spectral Lords? Good luck! 😄 Granted, part of that was also a lack of fully slotted powers. And while I appreciate that they added new high level mobs eventually, like the Hellfrosts and Succubi, I always felt that the mid-level enemies were more of a threat than the end game ones. So this is a very, very welcome addition. 😍

I like this idea, because it reinforces what new players are already presented with when they create their first character(s). Deviating from this and pigeonholing ATs to a single "role" is antithesis to what they've already been shown. Going this route also reinforces the fact that some Archetype are more specialized, while others are more diverse. I think the only other problem I have is forcing 5 players. Reason: It only requires 4 players to get the group XP buff. Also, a number of TFs were designed around a minimum of 3 or 4 players (yes, I know you can start them with less than that now, but this should be taken into consideration).

I think the problem in this case is that, while Sleep Grenade or Tranq could be used to start the Sleep stack, neither of them can be used to stack it, since they both deal damage on application, thus breaking the Sleep. I used to use Frozen Aura on my Ice/Ice Blaster back in the day, because I could quickly and easily stack it on bosses since it did no damage. It was a huge mitigation tool when things went sideways, and I fully appreciate the power of Sleeps. Hmm, that got me thinking... Would Sleep Duration Enhancements increase the duration of the AoE, or the duration of the individual sleeps inside the AoE? If the latter, I wonder if by doubling the Sleep Duration you could get it to self-stack. I may have to make a new character and bump them to 50 for some good IO Sets and see if that works (but I'll have to do that after work. 🤣), unless someone else wants to give that a test.

Yeah, my problem isn't the AoE Sleep, other than where it is on the list; imagine picking up Sleep Grenade as your first power and then entering the Tutorial. 😬😖😭 My issue is with 2 of the 1st 4 powers having a 45s and 90s cooldown. That would be like Fireball having a 45s cooldown and RoF a 90s cooldown. Blasters would be all "WTF is this!?" 🤣 Yes, I understand that most Control sets have mostly long cooldowns, but those are typically not within the 1st 3-4 powers. I'm guessing most people here are bumping to 50, IOing out, and saying "This is fine," which ignores the casual player leveling experience. This set needs a 3rd fast-recharging ability, at the very least, and I don't mean Cloaking Device. 😉 Even Earth Control, the set with the most long-recharge powers, has 3 fast-recharging abilities early on (the 1st 3 abilities, in fact), and all of them work with Containment/Domination. These are the bread and butter of the set, and used every single fight.

Double-checking the Detailed Info, and doing some testing, Liquid Nitrogen will not affect targets affected by Sleep. Every aspect of Liquid Nitrogen specifically states "While target is awake." So it seems they already thought of that. 😉 And with some extra testing, I can confirm. I had two enemies on Liquid Nitrogen, and only one of them was within Sleep Grenade. The awake guy was a fish out of water, the asleep guy was asleep. Also of note, enemies on Liquid Nitrogen flopping around and taking damage will immediately stop flopping and taking damage when Sleep grenade is applied. So, in a way, Sleep Grenade "interrupts" Liquid Nitrogen.

No matter what, Cryo Freeze Ray needs to be bumped into the 2nd slot. To me, that just seems like an oversight. Also, maybe tone down the glowing trail after effect a bit. 😉 I would also suggest adding a Slow and -Recharge to Tranquilizer (I mean, it is a tranq after all), which would make it useful on Bosses and the such, especially since you can't stack any of the Sleeps. Now for a potentially controversial question. Would it be possible to change Liquid Nitrogen from Ice Slick to Ice Patch, thus lowering the recharge from 90s to 35s? And would something like this be something players would want? This could sort of alleviate some of the long recharge issues for the early-to-mid game, and for late game instead of having one large patch it would allow players to place multiple small patches. Another oddball thought (its late, sue me 😂). Liquid Nitrogen looks like it could be a cone attack, so maybe make it a cone Immobilize? I'd still want the Ice Slick KD, so maybe replace Cloaking Device with it? I mean, Cloak is literally just Stealth from the Power Pool, so of all the powers listed, its the one I would replace with a hard control for Containment/Domination, and I'd want it to be a low-recharge ability, something the set is sorely lacking. Yeah, I'm just spit-balling ideas now to maybe spark an idea of creativity from someone else. 🤣 Don't get me wrong, I want this set to work. I came up with a PPD EAT (similar to VEATS in design) way back in the day that had a SWAT set focused primarily on AoE Grenades, though it was more Defendery and focused on debuffs, so the idea of a gadget-based Control set is right up my alley. I'm sure this set is fine at level cap, but power sets need to be designed with leveling in mind, and that's where this set suffers, IMO. Well, that and with the Containment/Domination issues.

As has been stated Tranquilizer almost never applies a Sleep, and when it does apply a Sleep, it doesn't do damage. Additionally, I feel that the damage should be increased to match the Tier 1 Immobilize powers. Sleep Grenade as a Tier 1 power feels horrible with a 45s recharge. If this is going to stay as a 45s Recharge, then it needs to be moved up to the 4th or 5th power in the set. Additionally, Sleep Grenade shows that it is a long sleep, but that does not seem to be the case. Instead, it seems to be a fairly short sleep of 3-4 seconds, but re-applies itself if the enemies are within the radius. I'm not sure what the tick rate is, but each time the enemies awaken they get about a second to do whatever they want. If this is the case, then the Detailed Info should be updated to match. Liquid Nitrogen is basically Ice Slick, but at L6 instead of L12. The problem here is that a L6 ability with a 90s cooldown feels horrible. Again, way too many long cooldown abilities early in the set. I would say that the 1st 5 abilities need to be looked at and adjusted in some way. Generally speaking, four out of the first five abilities should not have a recharge greater than 40 seconds, and most should be <10 seconds. These first few abilities are be the bread and butter of the powerset, and should be available every fight. Note: My testing was all done while actually leveling the character, not boosting to high levels, if that matters.

Thugs/Elec is surprisingly durable with all of the chain buffs and Faraday, and since you and your pets never run out of End you almost never need to slow down. Thugs/Storm I didn't care for early on, but once it gets going its really solid. The biggest issue, as with any Storm Summoning build, is Endurance; Storms is just a high End set no matter how you look at it. But if you play smart its not too bad. I would recommend investing in some KB->KD IOs and don't spam O2 Boost. 🤣

Not sure about meta, but I had over 2500 hrs on my Ice/Ice/Elec when CoH shut down. Something about that combination just clicked with me, and no matter how many other characters I made, I kept going back to that Blaster. It was solid damage and had solid cc, especially with the massive amount of +Recharge I squeezed into the build (~185% or so; I know that Chilblain recharged faster than its cast animation, and BIB, FRay, FTouch were all like a 3s recharge. I think even Hasten had like a 5s overlap 🤣). For Homecoming, I did remake the character but, I have purposefully retired the character so that I can spend time enjoying new characters, since I don't have anywhere close to the same amount of free time as I had back then. 😄 As far as other Blasters, Water/Dark has been quite interesting, Seismic/Earth is a lot of fun (lots of KD), and DP/MA is a surprisingly fun combo as well.

Yeah, I can understand where you're coming from, especially if you're not overly familiar with the powerset. It may sound weird but, Ice Blast doesn't really need a snipe. In fact, I can't think of any power I would want to give up for a snipe. 😄

Water Tank and Cow Mastermind confirmed! 😄 Grats! and Thanks! to everyone involved.