Warboss

I love the way they ignored all the feedback except making the Diminishing Returns 1/3 damage for everything past "cap" (because the previous math was confusing)... sigh, we tried.

I don't think it's a "you problem" it's a game balance/game mechanics issue (maybe power sets as well...). One that needs to be addressed by resolving procs and other AT shortcomings PRIOR to nerfing Tanks, or any other AT.

Okay, so some random observations after getting a few mins to test. Running @Galaxy Brain Office Sim at 8+4. Musculature and Degenerative are the only Incarnates in play (others are slotted, but not in play (not "active/clicked"). Running Rad/Fire, Rad/Elect, and Rad/Ice, non-optimized toons (generally with only one proc from the set being used) included in the AoEs and ST attacks. 1. Looks like Arc and AoE distances have been reduced to prior to "Tanker Buff". Let me know if this is incorrect, but when compared to what we have on live the AoE sizes seem smaller. Fire Sword Circle With Build Up - Current damage appears to be 12.5% Less. Not terrible on Minions and Lts, but shows on Bosses and above are a pain, very slow in taking them down. ** W/o Build Up and 35% less so a significant drop in damage. 2. Although a good mission for comparing straight damage, not sure how representative of the game it is. At 8+4 the game places a lot of debuffing on your toon. 3. Have not tried the toons mentioned above with Generic IOs or SOs... So not sure of base numbers vs builds with sets in play. My bet is it's would be a lot worse for any non-IO'd and leveling toons. 4. Have not been able to test with a leveling build or blended build including all types of Enhancements. 5. Overall there is a noticeable difference in clearing mobs. To the extent that it is not particularly fun. 6. I have one Brute level 50, that is partially IO'd. Will test when I can. I'm betting in the test environment he will clear faster. Certainly will handle the bosses faster. 7. Currently I do not solo at 8 +4 unless I'm testing something or have time to kill (lol, I wish). Hope this helps. If there certain information that would be more useful, let me know and I'll try to provide it.

This actually gets bandied about at Tanker Tuesday quite a bit. I'd be down for it, and I'm pretty sure most Tankers would.

I do find it funny how this is never addressed, yet Tanks are somehow breaking the game...

As someone who promotes Tankers, actually runs with all Tank teams, and can see what "basic", "standard", and "extreme" builds can do, I don't think these proposed change targets any but the latter, but will affect all (including leveling). If some changes are needed, fine, but not these. They don't seem to really address the issues at hand or deal with AT performance compared to Tanks, other than making Tankers less. Sadly I have to agree with you.

From the feedback and discussions we're seeing here, I'd agree. Are they or is it a byproduct of the game (more minions than Lts., than Bosses)? "Standard" damage (or lower tier powers) are going to reduce minions and Lts. at a decent pace. If the argument is that power strength dissipates over range, then use that as a basis for decreasing damage as a power "spreads out". BUT, that mechanic should be consistent over ALL powers as it will become part of the Game World Mechanics. If diminishing the amount of damage output from Tanker AoEs is the goal then maybe the Damage Scalar is what needs to be looked at, but that will affect Bosses and above (which are already a slog for non-optimized builds (I can't say for sure as I don't appear to have one, bosses and above are a pain)). Can't say I'm onboard with this one, but seems preferrable to combined changes we're being shown. This would affect Tanker STs, so I'm not really a fan of it. To me, this seems like a fix first before resolving any issues with other Melee ATs. Excessively nerfing Tank damage will NOT fix this problem. Again this seems like something that needs to be taken on outside of determining Tanker damage output. Fix this issue first, then take on other issues.

@@Sovera got it, but actually it's a bit of both. Honestly if you look at the amount of adjustments needed to achieve what they are attempting, it's too much. If damage is decreased over range for Tanks, then it should be for all ATs/all powers (Game World Reality), otherwise it's a targeted nerf. Decreased damage affects the "Threat Level"(?) (used to, not sure now).... If so, then Tanks control/aggro will decrease even with the increased "aggro" range due to the decreased damage (threat) (aggro will be stripped by higher damaging attacks the further the mob is away from the Tank - maybe the hidden goal here?). If there are certain powers that need to be adjusted (Rage ( which has been targeted for forever)), then those should be addressed and resolved before any AT wide changes go into affect. Power Sets should be looked at, adjusted and tested BEFORE any global changes, otherwise complications will just be added to the formula. If the problem is that Tanks are faster than Brutes at farming (or solo runs (not sure which or if both are the issue here, but I think it's very specific situation/s for very specific builds. I'm not sure the bulk of my Tanks would be faster than Brutes.)... then look at Brutes (didn't realize that CoX recognized Brutes as the "official farming toon"), clearly there needs to be something done there. If the problem is procs, then look there to resolve the problems PRIOR to global AT changes. Making sweeping changes to an AT to resolve other issues, won't. It will just complicate the mechanics of the game, which already seem pretty complex. I agree with you on the Cone Arcs. I don't have a great deal of time to play these days, but I did manage to test a few of my builds WP/IM (No Incarnates), Rad/Elect, and Rad/Fire (2 different builds w/Incarnates (Alpha and Interface only). The toons were not as fun to play as they are on "live" right now. I did not run at 8+4 (as mentioned, I don't have a lot of time to whittle down Bosses and my STs are not proc'd out), but at 8+2 Council, so I could compare the numbers (this was prior to the suggested missions). WP/IM, Frost seemed to really be lacking (I don't think this was the "latest build", maybe v5?), and didn't write down the numbers I was watching. Since I don't really play the other ATs, I can't give comparisons, but I can provide feedback for the Tanker sets.

So... with Tankers now being 30% slower, does that mean Brutes need to be nerfed?

Maybe they'll adjust to power name to "Kinda' Mad" from "Rage" to make up for the change...

Isn't it still affected by the overall damage reduction? And would Hand Clap be hit by the proc nerf?

Very enlightening.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, I'm from what I've seen here with recent changes, an "over-nerfing" is on the way. Changing the damage cap and instituting the damage reduction with range is too much (unless it's applied to all ATs and all power sets). Go for it. It would be funny to see the response.

I am fully confident that this will occur. Careful where you point the spotlight, but until they are used for farming, probably pretty safe.

Cross Punch isn't listed in the builds supplied under the thread regarding the test. If it was, then the builds included are not representative of the testing done.

I don't see Cross Punch in the builds but they do have Vengeance (no idea if that factored into the numbers/times). All tests (Brutes, Scrappers, and Tankers) were with Will Power as the Armor set, and the majority of the attacks were slotted with 4 procs. So I would say these were probably not representative or most Tanker builds. (I could be wrong, I might be the only Tanker not proc bombing).

Moonfire/Hess... Council/Striga.... Were you able to get the lower level Tanks in range for a TF?

Good fun on Indom last night. We continued with our Stone Armor/* challenge. We ran Manti, and followed up with missions. I think @Ronin_Around took the missions team and @Witty Librarian ran Hess(?). I don't recall if there was a forth team, if so, please go ahead and post what was run. We're back on Excel on June 3rd. See ya' then!

So... I've been doing some testing and I'm not seeing a major difference in the -Recharge from CE. How are you all slotting it?

Thanks for the post, I wasn't aware of the mechanics involved, it explains a lot. I follow a similar "solution" when building my Ice Tanks (was hoping I was just missing something ...).

Agreed, the only time I take Hibernate is when I'm testing game mechanics.

Hi all, I'm not an Ice Armor expert (by any measure) but I thought the DDR for Defense sets was higher than what I'm seeing on my IA Tanks. Mine are coming in around 51% DDR. Does that seem right? Seems a bit low considering SD is ~68% then stacks up to 88%+ with Active Defense and SR is in the 90s (iirc), so ~50% on Ice seems woefully low. I've got all the primaries except Hibernate (and I'm hoping that's NOT the intended "solution"). Am I missing something? Let me know. Thanks in advance. Warboss

I forgot how painful running a low level Ice Armor Tank can be (prior to the higher levels of DDR kicking in). I have to hand it to my team who stuck in there and finished both TFs. There was an good amount of leveling (I think I finished around level 22), and I know the rest of the team was leveling at a good pace as well. So "Well done!" to my teammates, and we'll see you at the next TT. btw, I think I broke Witty's record for number of defeats during a TF....

Ronin was faster on the keyboard than I was. Thanks for confirming that Ronin. Sounds good.

Hi all, I've been caught up in RL today. Not sure if I'll be able to make it tonight (if so will likely be a late joiner to the missions team). Take care and have fun, see you all soon!